How could Letro (or any AI) reverse gyno better than a SERM?

[J-Dogg]

I’ve read medical studies that have tested Nova 20mgs 3 times daily (60mgs daily) to suppress gyno in cases of adolescent gyno cases. This makes sense, a SERM competes for the estrogen receptor, I don’t know the mechanics, and if it could unbind what is currently bound, but I suppose in a high enough dosage it could. A low dose of Nova might not help if your estrogen levels are higher, so you probably just have to take enough Nova to fight for that receptor site.

I can’t understand how people say Letro can reverse gyno though. I’m not saying I’m right here, but I fail to see how a AI compound could solve your current gyno?

AI keeps testosterone from converting? Or keeps your Estrogen levels lower basically? Would the problem not simply be elevated estrogen levels? Or lack of testosterone perhaps? If you have normal estrogen and testosterone values, I don’t see how letro could break up the tissue.

Nova makes sense, because regardless of the levels of hormones, it competes for those sites.

[daem]

It can't reverse the thick, glandular matrix that advanced gyne causes. I don't care who tells your otherwise, because its just not true. When it grows, the gland basically develops fingers throughout your chest and won't be reduced or eradicated by Letrozole or any compound.

Why do you think pros have gyne surgery and talk about it rather than using letrozole? The reason is that they wouldn't waste their time trying to take some urban legend protocol and chance to get rid of it.

To summarize, if you have a glandular growth, it's too late to reduce / reverse it.

[peachfuzz]

while i will agree surgery is the only true way to get rid of gyno there are plenty of studies that show a reduction in glandular size with the use of both SERMs and AIs.

[jg42058p]

I am on letrozole right now to reverse gyno from a cycle i did years ago... and heres how I have come to understand the mechanics of how it works:

Basically once youve got the gyno, your body's natural estrogen levels maintain its existence because you have estrogen in your body... however, by taking letro you lower your bodys estrogen levels to almost zero and because there is no estrogen in the body to maintain the mammary gland's size, it will shrivel up slightly. It may not get rid of all of it, but IMO letro could help reduce its size. Since ive been on the letro I've noticed a little bit of shrinkage.. and ive heard from plenty of people that mild gyno can be reversed when using letrozole. However, if its too big then sugury may be the only option available.

[J-Dogg]

I actually just ask because I have some gyno.

Let me tell you I've purchased more Letro than you all combined. You won't reverse it.

I've reduced it only with 20mgs 3 times daily nova. It comes right back.

I've reduced it with nova, then hopped on letro, then back to clomid to help with the rebound. It's the same.

To be honest, I think a lot of the "myth" is created to sell liquid Letro. It worked for me.

It cost 6k to get it cut out. Why not drop $600 first if it might work?

[daem]

Let me tell you I've purchased more Letro than you all combined. You won't reverse it.

Probably...I tried it and couldn't get rid of it with any drug. Had to have surgery and it was the best decision I could have made.

A good doctor will make your chest look great.

To be honest, I think a lot of the "myth" is created to sell liquid Letro. It worked for me.

I'd have to agree.

[peachfuzz]

To be honest, I think a lot of the "myth" is created to sell liquid Letro. It worked for me.

maybe that is the reason for your lack of success?

[Mylo333]

Has anyone tried preventing gyno instead of trying to cure it? Adex?

[peachfuzz]

Has anyone tried preventing gyno instead of trying to cure it? Adex?

why didnt i think of that?

[BUDGIE]

i have had a pea sized lump behind my left nipple on 2 difernt occasions,if that is gyno,then i removed it both times using letro

[J-Dogg]

i have had a pea sized lump behind my left nipple on 2 difernt occasions,if that is gyno,then i removed it both times using letro

Many times gyno simply goes away when your hormone values return to normal.

Pubertial gyno does that with many males.

If you catch it soon enough, maybe, but if you have gyno, and not just a flair up it's not going away.

Catching it, is hardly somthing I would even consider calling a "reversal"

[Mylo333]

Haha Peachfuzz, nice 1, a better question would be has anyone successfully used Adex to prevent gyno? I'm 4 weeks into my 1st cycle of Test E, i've heard that body fat plays a big role when it comes to estrogen and gyno, my body fat is currently around 15% (D*mn machine is lying i tell you), i started taking .25mg of adex, i stopped about 2weeks ago as i felt that i wasnt yet getting any signs of gyno, i've got adex, nolva and letro on hand but my question would be has anyone successfully used Adex to prevent gyno? my friend says he uses nolva at a high dosage when he feels signs of gyno as mentioned previously in this thread

[Kratos]

nolva gets in the way of estrogen from getting to the receptor
letro keeps estrogen from being produced

[Kratos]

Blackwell KL.
Department of Medicine, Division of Medical Oncology, Duke University Medical Center, P.O. Box 3893, Durham, NC, 27710, USA, [email protected].

The anti-estrogen tamoxifen was the gold-standard adjuvant therapy for hormone-receptor-positive (HR+) early breast cancer for several decades, but has recently been displaced by the third-generation aromatase inhibitors (AIs). Three AIs are commercially available: letrozole, anastrozole and exemestane. All are more effective and at least as well tolerated as tamoxifen as adjuvant therapy for HR+ breast cancer in postmenopausal women. Despite the wealth of data comparing AIs with tamoxifen, it is unclear whether the three AIs are clinically equivalent, owing to the lack of head-to-head trials directly comparing them. Preclinical and small clinical studies suggest that letrozole is the most potent inhibitor of aromatase, reducing circulating estrogen levels to a greater degree than the other agents. However, whether this greater activity translates into superior clinical efficacy remains to be determined. In the absence of direct comparative data, cross-trial comparisons have been used to gain insights into any safety or efficacy differences. All three AIs have been compared directly with tamoxifen, and efficacy relative to tamoxifen has been compared across trials, although such analyses are complicated by differences in treatment schedules, patient populations and trial designs. Definitive conclusions cannot yet be drawn, but some important differences are coming to light, with upfront letrozole appearing particularly effective at preventing early distant metastasis, an event strongly associated with breast-cancer-related death. No safety differences between the AIs have yet been identified. This article explores the pharmacologic and clinical differences between the AIs, based on data from clinical and preclinical studies.

PMID: 19101793 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

Related ArticlesReviewAre all aromatase inhibitors the same? A review of controlled clinical trials in breast cancer. [Clin Ther. 2005] ReviewHormonal therapies for early breast cancer: systematic review and economic evaluation. [Health Technol Assess. 2007] ReviewThe breast cancer continuum in hormone-receptor-positive breast cancer in postmenopausal women: evolving management options focusing on aromatase inhibitors. [Ann Oncol. 2008] ReviewAromatase inhibitors in the adjuvant treatment of postmenopausal women with early breast cancer: Putting safety issues into perspective. [Breast J. 2007] ReviewCardiovascular safety profiles of aromatase inhibitors : a comparative review. [Drug Saf. 2006] » See Reviews... | » See All...

[Kratos]

Abstract
Letrozole is a new orally, active, potent, and highly specific non-steroidal aromatase inhibitor. Letrozole is about 200 and 10 000 times as potent as aminoglutethimide (AG) in vitro and in vivo, respectively. Letrozole was tested in healthy men and postmenopausal women and in postmenopausal patients with advanced breast cancer (ABC). Levels of circulating estrogens decreased by more than 75 to 95% from pre-treatment levels have been observed in patients treated with daily doses of 0.1 to 5 mg letrozole. No clinically relevant changes in other hormones of the endocrine system were found. in four phase Ib/IIa trials, letrozole has shown anti-tumor activity in postmenopausal patients with ABC previously treated with hormonotherapy and/or chemotherapy. Letrozole was well tolerated. Phase Ilb/III studies are on going to compare two doses of letrozole with megestrol acetate or AG in order to confirm the anti-tumor efficacy of letrozole in the treatment of ABC in postmenopausal patients who progressed/relapsed following treatment with anti-estrogens.

[jimmyinkedup]

here my take. Now granted ive never gotten gyno as a result of always taking precaution during cycle id imagine. That may have cost me some muscle growth as estrogen definately helps u gain muscle (in proper ratio with test obviously) it just that as estro levels reach a certain point...side effects become apparent. Id say that nolva gets right on the estro problem as said above by blocking receptor sidte...letro on the other hand diminishes aromitization to almost 0 with doses for gyno treatemtn (and some say with lower doses as well) so prob i see is ..letro stop armoitaization but yoy still hace high circulating estrogen exerting its effect until body can natuarrly dispose of it....hard to believe letro would have an immediate effect at all ....especially given the time taken with letro to establish steady blood levels. I dont know if letro/nolva in conjuction causes any interference with one another...(like they say with nolva/adex) but if not starting with both and dropping nolva makes some sense .....letro stops aromitization ...nolva block receptor taking care of immediate circulating etsrogen till levels are disposed of .....i dunno just speculation ....however i do think its a tough fight after coming off as rebound from either product will prob cause gyno flare up ...point being if you dont end gyno treatment with extended almost pct type therapy i believe gyno will flare up. This is just theory on my part guys ..based on what makes some sense to me...i have personally never dealt with gyno and as i am no pro or anything never felt the need to push the envelope with estrogen for a few extra pounds of muscle.

[Kratos]

It would take a lot of Nolvadex to get in the way of 95% of the estrogen in your body.

The amount of estrogen in your body + Nolvadex would have to be 95% Nolvadex

Not to mention Nolvadex has partial estrogenic action and therefore high doses are not efficacious.

[jimmyinkedup]

^^^ agreed but what about the existing circulating estrogen alredy aromitized in your body ? ...letro would do nothing for that at all.....thats why i thought perhaps both nolva to immedaitely block and letro to tehn stop armoitization....dunno ...what do you think?

[Kratos]

Think of it like a game of musical chairs where you have nolvadex and estrogen as the people playing and the chairs are the receptors. Even with nolvadex some estrogen is going to find a chair. With letro, most of the chairs are empty.

[jimmyinkedup]

^^^ but what about the circualting estrogen that exists ..letro doesnt do anything to it at all ...so with nolva brocking receptor (blocking existing estro not 100% but lets say even 50% thats better and prob below gyno causing levels no doubt)and then letro stopping aromitization ..you have a good combo ...with just letro you have estrogen at a level in your sytem that causes gyno ....and it will stay that way until body disposes of it...the nolva will immedaitely block some of it..lowering estrogen efftec right away the the letro will reduce aromitzation to almost 0 ......make sense?

[Kratos]

^^^ agreed but what about the existing circulating estrogen alredy aromitized in your body ? ...letro would do nothing for that at all.....thats why i thought perhaps both nolva to immedaitely block and letro to tehn stop armoitization....dunno ...what do you think?

It works really quick. I can't find a graph right now but the half life of estrogen is fairly short. Even just a day after the first dose estrogen levels will be much lower. I think they bottom out after only like a week even though blood plasma levels of letrozole are not stable yet.

[jimmyinkedup]

^^^ not trying to argue at all by any means ..just wondering if it makes sense ..... seems obvious nolva will get right on it and longer term letro will be more effective....

[jimmyinkedup]

It works really quick. I can't find a graph right now but the half life of estrogen is fairly short. Even just a day after the first dose estrogen levels will be much lower. I think they bottom out after only like a week even though blood plasma levels of letrozole are not stable yet.

gothca so even after one day estro levels are reduced significantly...makes sense then ...thnks....

[Kratos]

yeah, it makes perfect sense, but for gyno reversal they shouldn't be combined

for example

Evaluation of tamoxifen plus letrozole with assessment of pharmacokinetic interaction in postmenopausal women with metastatic breast cancer.

Ingle JN, Suman VJ, Johnson PA, Krook JE, Mailliard JA, Wheeler RH, Loprinzi CL, Perez EA, Jordan VC, Dowsett M.

Mayo Clinic and Mayo Foundation, Rochester, Minnesota 55905, USA. [email protected]

The goals of this clinical trial involving postmenopausal women with metastatic breast cancer were to: (a) examine the effects of letrozole on tamoxifen (TAM) pharmacokinetics; (b) examine estrogen suppression in patients receiving TAM plus letrozole; and (c) evaluate tolerability, toxicity, objective response, and time to progression for the combination. Postmenopausal women with measurable or evaluable metastatic breast cancer received TAM (20 mg daily) for 6 weeks, and then letrozole (2.5 mg daily) was added. To examine for any effect of letrozole on the levels of TAM and two metabolites [N-desmethyl-TAM and 4-hydroxy-TAM], serum samples were obtained at 6, 12, 18, and 24 weeks. To examine for aromatase inhibition, serum samples were obtained before treatment and at 6, 12, 18, and 24 weeks for estradiol, estrone (E1) E1 sulfate, and sex hormone-binding globulin. A total of 34 patients were entered on this trial, and 23 patients were still on study at week 24, 18 of whom had blood samples available at both week 6 and week 24. The 95% confidence interval for the mean difference between levels at week 24 and levels at week 6 was -34 to 15 ng/ml for TAM, -35 to 45 ng/ml for N-desmethyl-TAM, and -1 to 2 for 4-hydroxy-TAM. For estradiol, a significant decrease (median, 88.5%; range, 73.7-95.2%) was identified after 6 weeks of letrozole, which was maintained for an additional 12 weeks. Similar significant reductions were identified for E1. E1 sulfate levels increased after 6 weeks of TAM alone but then decreased significantly after the addition of letrozole. Sex hormone-binding globulin levels were significantly elevated after 6 weeks of TAM alone and remained elevated after the addition of letrozole. Six of the 34 patients (17.6%) achieved an objective response (95% confidence interval, 6.8-34.5%), with a median time to disease progression of 7.6 months. There was no indication of a systematic decrease in TAM, N-desmethyl-TAM, or 4-hydroxy-TAM after the additional of letrozole. Estrogen suppression induced by letrozole was substantial despite the concomitant administration of TAM. The antitumor effect of TAM plus letrozole was less than expected.

Nolvadex makes Letro less effective in other words but still effective.

[Kratos]

Aromasin gets along much better with nolvadex than either Arimidex or Letro

[jimmyinkedup]

here my take. Now granted ive never gotten gyno as a result of always taking precaution during cycle id imagine. That may have cost me some muscle growth as estrogen definately helps u gain muscle (in proper ratio with test obviously) it just that as estro levels reach a certain point...side effects become apparent. Id say that nolva gets right on the estro problem as said above by blocking receptor sidte...letro on the other hand diminishes aromitization to almost 0 with doses for gyno treatemtn (and some say with lower doses as well) so prob i see is ..letro stop armoitaization but yoy still hace high circulating estrogen exerting its effect until body can natuarrly dispose of it....hard to believe letro would have an immediate effect at all ....especially given the time taken with letro to establish steady blood levels. I dont know if letro/nolva in conjuction causes any interference with one another...(like they say with nolva/adex) but if not starting with both and dropping nolva makes some sense .....letro stops aromitization ...nolva block receptor taking care of immediate circulating etsrogen till levels are disposed of .....i dunno just speculation ....however i do think its a tough fight after coming off as rebound from either product will prob cause gyno flare up ...point being if you dont end gyno treatment with extended almost pct type therapy i believe gyno will flare up. This is just theory on my part guys ..based on what makes some sense to me...i have personally never dealt with gyno and as i am no pro or anything never felt the need to push the envelope with estrogen for a few extra pounds of muscle.

That answers this from my first post.....good info....thnks...

[jimmyinkedup]

so nolva/letro first 2 weeks then just letro wouldnt be a good way to go in your opinion and based on the above info?

[BigBrucie]

once you have gyno surgery is there a possibility of getting gyno again

[BigBrucie]

I’ve read medical studies that have tested Nova 20mgs 3 times daily (60mgs daily) to suppress gyno in cases of adolescent gyno cases. This makes sense, a SERM competes for the estrogen receptor, I don’t know the mechanics, and if it could unbind what is currently bound, but I suppose in a high enough dosage it could. A low dose of Nova might not help if your estrogen levels are higher, so you probably just have to take enough Nova to fight for that receptor site.

I can’t understand how people say Letro can reverse gyno though. I’m not saying I’m right here, but I fail to see how a AI compound could solve your current gyno?

AI keeps testosterone from converting? Or keeps your Estrogen levels lower basically? Would the problem not simply be elevated estrogen levels? Or lack of testosterone perhaps? If you have normal estrogen and testosterone values, I don’t see how letro could break up the tissue.

Nova makes sense, because regardless of the levels of hormones, it competes for those sites.

thats why aromasin or proviren is recommended over arimidex.

[Immortal Soldier]

once you have gyno surgery is there a possibility of getting gyno again

Yes, because during Surgery the doctor doesn't take out all the gyno. He has to leave a little bit behind the nipple to prevent It from caving inward.