I need this straightened out!

[CHUCKYthentic]

How much HCG?!?!?!?!?!

Thats basically my Q here.... Alright I have been reading all OVER for these answers, even on a few other forums (which im not a big fan of) and right when i think i have my solution, i read something else and think im wrong!

Alright, never used HCG before, but i want to in this coming up cycle:
Test E 600mg 1-12
Var 60mg ED 1-7
Tren A 50mg ED 7-12
***I have caber, adex on hand, prob gonna use both
***pct clomid, nolva

So i know hcg can be used thoughout cycle and also know aaaall the other methods... thing is, THEY ALL SEEM TO CONFLICT!!!

Heres what im thinking of doing: I have 5000iu of HCG gonna reconstitute is for a 1000iu solution
initially planned starting it week 9, 2 250iu shots, same week 10,11 and 12.
week 13, 4-250iu shots
week 14, 2-250iu shots, then on the last day of the active life of my Test E, 1 500iu shot maybe a 1000iu shot(let me know if thats a bad idea), then next day jump into pct

So i guess im worried about the fact that hcg run too long can decensitize your LH, and ofcourse i dont want that!

So is my schedule GTG?
Any other suggestions?

also, gonna run caber and adex up until the START of pct

[musclehead1983]

HCG


HCG is a unique drug used by male bodybuilders because of the fact that it can mimic the hormone LH (luteninizing hormone) in the body. LH is the hormone that is responsible for making testosterone in the testicles. Bodybuilders use HCG during long cycles due to the fact that after sometime on testosterone mimicking hormones the testicles will stop producing testosterone due to the use of a synthetic testosterone-mimicking drug.

HCG has significant applications to the steroid using bodybuilder due to the fact that it can help bring testosterone levels back to normal levels. This is where many will opt to employ HCG for the last 3-4 weeks of a steroid cycle.

A very important fact to note is that while using HCG you must use a drug such as Nolvadex or Clomid, and one of these (preferably both) should be used for the 2-3 weeks after using HCG, or you could end up where you started with low testosterone levels once again.

Another important aspect to note is that HCG should not be used for more than a 3-4 week period and it should also not be used at very high doses, because this could desensitize the testicles to LH, and could leave you back in a bad position.

Typically HCG is used for the 3-4 weeks towards the end of a long cycle of steroids to raise natural testosterone levels in the testicles. HCG should be administered every 5 days to every 3 days (if you opt to use it more frequently doses should be adjusted accordingly) with the first shot in the last week of your cycle.

If you opt to go every five days the first two shots should be around 3000 IU, then the second two should be 1500 IU. It would be very wise to use Nolvadex during this time, and Clomid should be using following the HCG for 2-3 weeks along with the Nolvadex.




when i have used it, i took 1500-2500iu on the 1st/5th day of PCT

[CHUCKYthentic]

See my goal is is to go INTO pct with my boys already funtioning on some level

I know my testicular atrophy on this cycle is gonna be worse than ever before, so thats why i am even considering HCG

[Mammon]

i wouldnt worry about leydig cell decensitization with low iu injections.... its a possibility with many high iu injections but not something to worry about with 250/500iu..
id rather see 500iu injections more frequently then say 2500iu injections here and there..
ill run 500iu a couple times a week through long heavy cycles.. 16-20 weekers with no issues.. just an easier recovery. ill run 10mg nolvadex when if im using HCG,

[CHUCKYthentic]

i wouldnt worry about leydig cell decensitization with low iu injections.... its a possibility with many high iu injections but not something to worry about with 250/500iu..
id rather see 500iu injections more frequently then say 2500iu injections here and there..
ill run 500iu a couple times a week through long heavy cycles.. 16-20 weekers with no issues.. just an easier recovery. ill run 10mg nolvadex when if im using HCG,

alright i see what you re sayin

how about week 9 same as i said, see how i react to 500iu, then there after 1000iu

if im doin the math correctly ill be 500iu short though, damnit

and with the nolva i was considering that too
will it still be needed if im runnin the adex?
(even though i know they are 2 diff things)

[WARMachine]

The most efficient way to use HCG
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=362353

Best way ive found IMO.

HCG


HCG is a unique drug used by male bodybuilders because of the fact that it can mimic the hormone LH (luteninizing hormone) in the body. LH is the hormone that is responsible for making testosterone in the testicles. Bodybuilders use HCG during long cycles due to the fact that after sometime on testosterone mimicking hormones the testicles will stop producing testosterone due to the use of a synthetic testosterone-mimicking drug.

HCG has significant applications to the steroid using bodybuilder due to the fact that it can help bring testosterone levels back to normal levels. This is where many will opt to employ HCG for the last 3-4 weeks of a steroid cycle.

A very important fact to note is that while using HCG you must use a drug such as Nolvadex or Clomid, and one of these (preferably both) should be used for the 2-3 weeks after using HCG, or you could end up where you started with low testosterone levels once again.

Another important aspect to note is that HCG should not be used for more than a 3-4 week period and it should also not be used at very high doses, because this could desensitize the testicles to LH, and could leave you back in a bad position.

Typically HCG is used for the 3-4 weeks towards the end of a long cycle of steroids to raise natural testosterone levels in the testicles. HCG should be administered every 5 days to every 3 days (if you opt to use it more frequently doses should be adjusted accordingly) with the first shot in the last week of your cycle.

If you opt to go every five days the first two shots should be around 3000 IU, then the second two should be 1500 IU. It would be very wise to use Nolvadex during this time, and Clomid should be using following the HCG for 2-3 weeks along with the Nolvadex.


when i have used it, i took 1500-2500iu on the 1st/5th day of PCT

I dont agree with the above for the most part.

[CHUCKYthentic]

ya i dont like that one either WAR

that link you gave me looks familiar! ive read it before and do like it
thanks bro that helps too

[Mammon]

here is an atricle written by swale published in iron life magazine.

HCG article from Iron Life Mag

In my paper “My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men”, published in A4M’s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:

Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG—a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog—will effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones.

So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now let’s delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly “cycle” compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right time—without inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later)—approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp.

But there’s another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.

It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).

I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark.

Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They needn’t concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline.

While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do—even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more “traditional” TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.

*Copyright John Crisler, DO 2004. This article may, in its entirety or in part, be reprinted and republished without permission, provided that credit be given to its author, with copyright notice and www.AllThingsMale.com clearly displayed as source. Written permission from Dr. Crisler is required for all other uses.


Dr. John Crisler may be reached at:



[email protected]

[The Deuce]

250 iu`s e3d is what i normally did the last 4 weeks of my cycle ... meaning 2 weeks while i was still injecting and the two weeks prior to pct after the last inject. Always got MY BOYS back on line and working just fine. I dont know if that helps you at all bro but thats my take on it...

[musclehead1983]

sorry you guys don't agree. I guess we can't all the time. i just got that from a very reliable source and when i used HCG for PCT i followed this and it worked great.

[Mammon]

nah bro dont appologise.. there are many ways to go about it.. if it worked for you thats great..

[CHUCKYthentic]

thanks Mammon that helps, im gonna save this

how about the nolva @ 10mg while using hcg?
will i need it if usind adex too, if i will need the nolva how often will i take the 10mg?

[CHUCKYthentic]

sorry you guys don't agree. I guess we can't all the time. i just got that from a very reliable source and when i used HCG for PCT i followed this and it worked great.

oh ya man no worries. thats my prob, sooooo many ways to do it!

shits stressful! LOL

[The Deuce]

I personally never used nolva until pct.... but i guess it couldnt hurt to run it with it... theres just sooooo many ways to run things... everyone is going tosay something different ya know?

[Mammon]

thanks Mammon that helps, im gonna save this

how about the nolva @ 10mg while using hcg?
will i need it if usind adex too, if i will need the nolva how often will i take the 10mg?

well i run both adex at .25 and 10mg nolvadex through my cycles.. past issues and all.. prefer not to battle the shit again so i dont have to worry about it much,

but as swales article states with 500iu there wont be that great of an estrogen spike so should be alright.. just make sure to have enough nolvadex on hand incase its needed.

[CHUCKYthentic]

I personally never used nolva until pct.... but i guess it couldnt hurt to run it with it... theres just sooooo many ways to run things... everyone is going tosay something different ya know?

as with everything else on here right! LOL

[CHUCKYthentic]

well i run both adex at .25 and 10mg nolvadex through my cycles.. past issues and all.. prefer not to battle the shit again so i dont have to worry about it much,

but as swales article states with 500iu there wont be that great of an estrogen spike so should be alright.. just make sure to have enough nolvadex on hand incase its needed.

cool

ya i have enough of everything so i should be straight, thanks bud