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Thread: Our own stuff killing our troops

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    Our own stuff killing our troops

    U.S. arms may be falling into hands of Taliban
    Evidence suggests leak from Afghan forces leads to use against Americans

    KABUL - Insurgents in Afghanistan, fighting from some of the poorest and most remote regions on earth, have managed for years to maintain an intensive guerrilla war against materially superior American and Afghan forces.

    Arms and ordnance collected from dead insurgents hint at one possible reason: Of 30 rifle magazines recently taken from insurgents’ corpses, at least 17 contained cartridges, or rounds, identical to ammunition the United States had provided to Afghan government forces, according to an examination of ammunition markings by The New York Times and interviews with American officers and arms dealers.

    The presence of this ammunition among the dead in the Korangal Valley, an area of often fierce fighting near Afghanistan’s border with Pakistan, strongly suggests that munitions procured by the Pentagon have leaked from Afghan forces for use against American troops.

    The scope of that diversion remains unknown, and the 30 magazines represented a single sampling of fewer than 1,000 cartridges. But military officials, arms analysts and dealers say it points to a worrisome possibility: With only spotty American and Afghan controls on the vast inventory of weapons and ammunition sent into Afghanistan during an eight-year conflict, poor discipline and outright corruption among Afghan forces may have helped insurgents stay supplied.

    The United States has been criticized, as recently as February by the federal Government Accountability Office, for failing to account for thousands of rifles issued to Afghan security forces. Some of these weapons have been documented in insurgents’ hands, including weapons in a battle last year in which nine Americans died.

    Tracing rifles, ammunition
    In response, the Combined Security Transition Command-Afghanistan , the American-led unit tasked with training and supplying Afghan forces, said it had made accountability of all Afghan police and military property a top priority, and taken steps to locate and log rifles issued even years ago. The Pentagon has created a database of small arms issued to Afghan units.

    No similarly thorough accountability system exists for ammunition, which is harder to trace and more liquid than firearms, readily changing hands through corruption, illegal sales, theft, battlefield loss and other forms of diversion.

    American forces do not examine all captured arms and munitions to trace how insurgents obtained them, or to determine whether the Afghan government, directly or indirectly, is a significant Taliban supplier, military officers said.

    The reasons include limited resources and institutional memory of issued arms, as well as an absence of collaboration between field units that collect equipment and the investigators and supervisors in Kabul who could trace it.

    Getting access to Taliban equipment
    In this case, the rifle magazines were captured last month by a platoon in Company B, First Battalion, 26th Infantry, which killed at least 13 insurgents in a nighttime ambush in eastern Afghanistan . The soldiers searched the insurgents’ remains and collected 10 rifles, a rocket-propelled-grenade launcher, 30 magazines and other equipment.

    Access to Taliban equipment is unusual. But after the ambush, the company allowed the items to be examined by this reporter.

    Photographs were taken of the weapons’ serial numbers and markings on the bottoms of the cartridge casings, known as headstamps, which can reveal where and when ammunition was manufactured . The headstamps were then compared with ammunition in government circulation, and with this reporter’s records of ammunition sampled in Afghan magazines and bunkers in multiple provinces in recent years.

    The type of ammunition in question, 7.62x39 millimeter, colloquially known as "7.62 short," is one of the world’s most abundant classes of military small-arms cartridges, and can come from dozens of potential suppliers.

    It is used in Kalashnikov rifles and their knockoffs, and has been made in many countries, including Russia, China, Ukraine, North Korea, Cuba, India, Pakistan, the United States, the former Warsaw Pact nations and several countries in Africa. Several countries have multiple factories, each associated with distinct markings.

    Linked to California, Czech Republic
    The examination of the Taliban’s cartridges found telling signs of diversion: 17 of the magazines contained ammunition bearing either of two stamps: the word "WOLF" in uppercase letters, or the lowercase arrangement "bxn."

    "WOLF" stamps mark ammunition from Wolf Performance Ammunition , a company in California that sells Russian-made cartridges to American gun owners. The company has also provided cartridges for Afghan soldiers and police officers, typically through middlemen. Its munitions can be found in Afghan government bunkers.

    The "bxn" marking was formerly used at a Czech factory during the cold war. Since 2004, the Czech government has donated surplus ammunition and equipment to Afghanistan. A.E.Y. Inc., a former Pentagon supplier, also shipped surplus Czech ammunition to Afghanistan, according to the United States Army , including cartridges bearing "bxn" stamps.

    Most of the Wolf and Czech ammunition in the Taliban magazines was in good condition and showed little weathering, denting, corrosion or soiling, suggesting it had been removed from packaging recently.

    There is no evidence that Wolf, the Czech government or A.E.Y. knowingly shipped ammunition to Afghan insurgents. A.E.Y. was banned last year from doing business with the Pentagon, but its legal troubles stemmed from unrelated allegations of fraud.

    Afghan units a likely source
    Given the number of potential sources, the probability that the Taliban and the Pentagon were sharing identical supply sources was small.

    Rather, the concentration of Taliban ammunition identical in markings and condition to that used by Afghan units indicated that the munitions had most likely slipped from state custody, said James Bevan, a researcher specializing in ammunition for the Small Arms Survey , an independent research group in Geneva.

    Mr. Bevan, who has documented ammunition diversion in Kenya, Uganda and Sudan, said one likely explanation was that interpreters, soldiers or police officers had sold ammunition for profit or passed it along for other reasons, including support for the insurgency. "Same story, different location," he said.

    The majority of cartridges in the remaining 13 Taliban magazines bore headstamps indicating they were made in Russia in the Soviet period. Several rounds had Chinese stamps and dates indicating manufacture in the 1960s and ’70s. A smaller number were Hungarian. Much of this other ammunition was in poor condition.

    Hungarian and Chinese ammunition had also been provided to the Afghan government by A.E.Y., making it possible that several of the remaining magazines included American-procured rounds.

    American military says 'it's not surprising'
    The American military did not dispute the possibility that theft or corruption could have steered Wolf and Czech ammunition to insurgents.

    Capt. James C. Howell, who commands the company that captured the ammunition, said illicit diversion would be consistent with an enduring reputation of corruption in Afghan units, especially the police. "It’s not surprising," he said.

    But he added that in his experience this form of corruption was not the norm. Rather than deliberate diversion, he said, the more likely causes would be poor discipline and oversight in the Afghan national security forces, or A.N.S.F. "I think most A.N.S.F. don’t want their own stuff coming back at them," he said.

    Captured Taliban rifles provide a glimpse at arms diversion as well.

    After the battle in the eastern village of Wanat last year, in which 9 Americans died and more than 20 were wounded, investigators found a large cache of AMD-65 assault rifles in the village’s police post, which was implicated in the attack, according to American officers. In all, the post had more than 70 assault rifles, but only 20 officers on its roster. Three AMD-65s were recovered near the battle as well.

    The AMD-65, a distinctive Hungarian rifle, was rarely seen in Afghanistan until the United States issued it by the thousands to the Afghan police. They can now be found in Pakistani arms bazaars.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30838049//

  2. #2
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    Speechless .............

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    I posted this more because I know there are a lot of gun lovers on this site.
    I was curious what do we have in the US military that even shoots a 7.62x39 millimeter
    if nothing then why do we have a contract to buy the stuff
    and why are we giving it to the Afghan's instead of having them order it direct

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    Notice that the soldiers weren't surprised.



    Kratos, you know why that amunition ends up in insurgent's hands? Because it is profitable for someone to put it there, and the rules of a free market dictate that if something is profitable, it should be done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jfalco View Post
    Kratos, you know why that amunition ends up in insurgent's hands? Because it is profitable for someone to put it there, and the rules of a free market dictate that if something is profitable, it should be done.
    http://www.auburn.edu/~mitrege/FLRU2520/RedMafia.html

    eliminate the free market and elimate the black market?
    nope sorry
    as long as you have humans, you'll have greed and illegal behavior and flow of goods

    inefficency breeds corruption which then has to be attempted to be regulated.

    I don't know how you can propose a worldwide system that will eliminate illegal transactions...it just isn't going to happen



    Don't forget J there could be taliban sympathizers in the Afghan army that are diverting rounds, they might be willing to be "part of the fight" for free.
    Last edited by Kratos; 05-20-2009 at 09:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kratos View Post
    I posted this more because I know there are a lot of gun lovers on this site.
    I was curious what do we have in the US military that even shoots a 7.62x39 millimeter
    if nothing then why do we have a contract to buy the stuff
    and why are we giving it to the Afghan's instead of having them order it direct
    Nothing. That's a Russkie cartridge. We're supplying ammo for the Afghan's AK's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ErnstHatAngst View Post
    Nothing. That's a Russkie cartridge. We're supplying ammo for the Afghan's AK's.
    I know we're supplying their AK's
    and some of our old old stuff fired that round
    I was curious if anything current

    what about lot numbers so we can track down where they went?

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    If anything current?

    I'm not sure i understand your question.

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    Stinger

    FYI guys it was a stinger that shot me down in 07, supplyed by the USA to fight the russian's back in the 80. We will never learn

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    Well of course we supplied them with weapons. We couldn't let the commies control a worthless desert full of religious fundamentalist wackjobs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ErnstHatAngst View Post
    If anything current?

    I'm not sure i understand your question.
    yeah, basically, why do we have a large pile of the stuff to send them in the first place?

    The only reason I can think of is because AK's are in militant gvt and militia hands all over the world and we pick and choose who to deal arms to.

    It's used in something like 130 guns so maybe we have something in the arsenal that uses it. But why else would we have so much?

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    Nothing in the US arsenal is, or ever has been, chambered in that round to my knowledge-- and I know guns. Contractors and special forces have been known to use weapons chambered in it, but really most of that ammo floating around here would be on hand for the civilian market. Any the gov't has or obtained is likely for training our troops in the use of other common battlefield weapons and mostly for supplying militants and sympathetic governments the whole world round.

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    That whole situation is crazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ErnstHatAngst View Post
    Nothing in the US arsenal is, or ever has been, chambered in that round to my knowledge-- and I know guns. Contractors and special forces have been known to use weapons chambered in it, but really most of that ammo floating around here would be on hand for the civilian market. Any the gov't has or obtained is likely for training our troops in the use of other common battlefield weapons and mostly for supplying militants and sympathetic governments the whole world round.


    I think you are correct on that...I guess I just find it disturbing that it's something that we don't use...It's one of the cheapest center fire rounds you can buy because of all the civil wars and crap all over the world...and we have enough of it on hand to give to Iraq and Afganistan without causing a price fluxuation in the US until 2005/2006.

    It just makes you think where our stock pile of AK-47 rounds would have be headed if not there...or at least it makes me think.

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    I say we just go back to using pointy sticks and rocks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kratos View Post
    I think you are correct on that...I guess I just find it disturbing that it's something that we don't use...It's one of the cheapest center fire rounds you can buy because of all the civil wars and crap all over the world...and we have enough of it on hand to give to Iraq and Afganistan without causing a price fluxuation in the US until 2005/2006.

    It just makes you think where our stock pile of AK-47 rounds would have be headed if not there...or at least it makes me think.
    Sure does make you think. Why is this stuff being manufactured?

    Same thing with perscription drugs. Way more are being abused than legitimately perscribed. Why is enough being manufactured to supply the abusers?

    Supplying our enimies with weapons is evil. Kind of seems like keeping your enemy viable to justify continued war. Someone is always making money. Even if the sale at the end of the line is illegal, the legitmate american manufacturer is profiting at the beginning of the line. Greatest business plan there ever was is to supply weapons to both sides in a conflict.

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    This article makes no sense to me. OUR ammunition is killing our soldiers? Since when have we ever used a 7.62x39 in any of our military weapons?

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    the us military does use ak-47's... alot of the ranger,sf and task force teams use them from time to time.. so the round is needed.

    plus the US for the most part has to supply the forces our MTT and PTT teams who train military and police units, so they have to have the 7.62 short for those teams...

    and for them to have found less than a 1000 rounds isn't a lot, combat load is 210 rounds.. so if the insurgents killed five afghan soldiers and took their weapons and ammo.. they would have more than 1000 rounds.

    the story is playing on words.... i am the first to bitch about the US military not keeping records and ****ing up money trails.. but i don't see anything in this article that is a smoking gun.. seems to me more as a part of war twisted to sound like we are supplying the enemy.
    Last edited by quarry206; 05-20-2009 at 11:17 PM.

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