Liver Support no MT

[pakroids]

Hey guys Ive come across Liv.52 - tablets and syrup form .

can someone please tell me recommended dosage for after 4 week dbol cycle.
Also is there anything else i should be taking for liver enzymes , cholesterol ,
etc.

I cant get Milk Thistle or any supps. such as Anabolic Support yadda yadda.
Please help save my health guys.

[dd0316]

liv 52 needs to be run for like atleast a month or 2 before it has any effect
ur a little late dude

just follow the directions on the bottle.they were formulated to work

[lovbyts]

You CANT get milk Thistle? DAMN that's rough. Sorry but you need to do your research/google and see what you can get or just to to your local GNC/Nutrition store and ask for what you need. There are a lot of good products out there it all depends on what you can get.

[Immortal Soldier]

Is dbol even that hard on the liver?

Just don't drink and take Live52 after your cycle (tablets). Problem solved.

I didnt use liver support with my Superdrol that I added into my cruise a couple weeks ago and that is a di-methyl.

[Juice Authority]

Liver protectants don't shit while on-cycle. Their effect is negligible at best and a complete waste of money. The best time to use liver protectants is before or after a cycle. They also interfere with androgens in the body while on-cycle, which ‘slightly’ hinders gains by inhibiting protein synthesis. The extent to which they interfere with androgens is based on the individual but this is a well documented fact, not a BBing myth. Even the guys at the Nutrition store selling prohormones know this. They don't reduce the number of androgen receptors, nor do they prevent androgens (i.e. testosterone) from binding to the receptors. They do however prevent the androgen receptor from traveling to the nucleus. This interferes to a degree with the desired effect. The androgen receptor, once bound to the androgen, must make it to the nucleus in order to increase protein synthesis.

[Immortal Soldier]

Liver protectants don't shit while on-cycle. Their effect is negligible at best and a complete waste of money. The best time to use liver protectants is before or after a cycle. They also interfere with androgens in the body while on-cycle, which ‘slightly’ hinders gains by inhibiting protein synthesis. The extent to which they interfere with androgens is based on the individual but this is a well documented fact, not a BBing myth. Even the guys at the Nutrition store selling prohormones know this. They don't reduce the number of androgen receptors, nor do they prevent androgens (i.e. testosterone) from binding to the receptors. They do however prevent the androgen receptor from traveling to the nucleus. This interferes to a degree with the desired effect. The androgen receptor, once bound to the androgen, must make it to the nucleus in order to increase protein synthesis.

No research has shown that LiverLonger or Live52 interfere with steroid cycles or protein synthesis, actually I am pretty sure research shows these to compounds do not affect it. Take into mind that liverlonger was developed specifically for oral steroid cycles such as Anabol, Dbol, and others in mind.

[Juice Authority]

No research has shown that LiverLonger or Live52 interfere with steroid cycles or protein synthesis, actually I am pretty sure research shows these to compounds do not affect it. Take into mind that liverlonger was developed specifically for oral steroid cycles such as Anabol, Dbol, and others in mind.

I won't argue that point because you could be right. Most liver protectants though have milk thistle in it and that's really what I was referring to.

This study can be interpreted in many ways and is only true for silymarin based on one study. One study done on the one of the least effective liver aids (compared to TUDCA, SAMe, NAC, etc) so, to your point, this is not true for every other liver aid.

Here is the abstract:

Title: Silymarin inhibits function of the androgen receptor by reducing nuclearlocalization of the receptor in the human prostate cancer cell line LNCaP.Authors: Zhu W, Zhang JS, Young CY.Source: Carcinogenesis 2001 Sep;22(9):1399-403

Research Summary
Agents with novel mechanisms of blocking androgen receptor (AR) function may be useful for prostate cancer prevention and therapy. Previous studies showed that silibinin (SB), the major active component of Milk Thistle, could inhibit cell proliferation of a human prostate cancer cell line by stopping the cell cycle without causing cell death. This study further demonstrates the potential molecular mechanism by which Milk Thistle acts on androgen-responsive prostate cancer cells by inhibiting function of the AR. We observed that Silymarin (SM) and SB inhibited androgen-stimulated cell proliferation as well as androgen-stimulated secretion of both prostate-specific antigen (PSA) and human glandular kallikrein (hK2).Additionally, for the first time, we show that SM and SB diminished transactivation activity of the AR. However, SM did not affect AR levels and steroid-binding ability of total AR in western blotting and ligand-binding assays. Intriguingly, we found that nuclear AR levels are significantly reduced by SM and SB in the presence of androgens. This study provides a new insight into how Milk Thistle negatively modulates androgen action in prostate cancer cells.

[TractionIssues]

I was just wondering about this. So do you guys think I should stop liv52 until I'm done my dbol, or the cycle completely? Even though it has no milk-thistle ingredients? Although, my antioxident supp does have a small amount in it... opinions?

[Juice Authority]

I was just wondering about this. So do you guys think I should stop liv52 until I'm done my dbol, or the cycle completely? Even though it has no milk-thistle ingredients? Although, my antioxident supp does have a small amount in it... opinions?

Here's one person's view on a debate we had about this very issue at OLM:

This is a common bodybuilding myth. If i remember correctly, there was a study that this was derived from but at the same time was misinterpreted and MANY factors were unaccounted for.

If things like milk thistle, NAC, etc dilute orals then why do a massive amount of people who use both a liver protectant in conjunction with their oral still have fabulous results? This is an overwhelming amount btw and their results compared to people who do not use protectants are merely the same. It just doesn't add up.

In perfect situations or to minuscule amounts this may be true but in the real world this results into nothing. Another large factor when using orals is running them for short time frames to minimize possible harmful effects.

It all falls down to being safe than sorry. Like i said, my body treats me well so i will do the same. If taking a liver protectant while on an oral AAS that may harm my liver results in a loss of .0000298lb of body mass then it is mass well lost IMO.

Here's another viewpoint:

I spoke to my doc about the effectiveness of "liver clenser".... The reason I asked him is because I got several blood tests during this cycle and the first 7 weeks of this cycle I was running 50mg dbol day with values that were about double of the high end of normal range.(they were this high by week 2)

I took 7 weeks off the orals and then started another 6 weeks of dbol this time @ 60mg day. Now before I started them again my liver values were back in normal range, after only 6 weeks break. My doc told me that all those liver tonics/ protectants or whatever you want to call them were a waste of money??? so I decided to see for myself. I ran the cycle of dbol and got monthy tests throughout my cycle (20weeks) and as the doctor told me, the liver values were basically the same as the first run of orals except the second I was running 60mg NOT 50mg day. Again about 6 - 7 weeks later my liver function test was normal.

My doc also told me that an alcoholic has WAY higher Liver values compared to mine which I thought were high. Just my experience people thought you might be interested

[Immortal Soldier]

I won't argue that point because you could be right. Most liver protectants though have milk thistle in it and that's really what I was referring to.

This study can be interpreted in many ways and is only true for silymarin based on one study. One study done on the one of the least effective liver aids (compared to TUDCA, SAMe, NAC, etc) so, to your point, this is not true for every other liver aid.

Here is the abstract:

Title: Silymarin inhibits function of the androgen receptor by reducing nuclearlocalization of the receptor in the human prostate cancer cell line LNCaP.Authors: Zhu W, Zhang JS, Young CY.Source: Carcinogenesis 2001 Sep;22(9):1399-403

Research Summary
Agents with novel mechanisms of blocking androgen receptor (AR) function may be useful for prostate cancer prevention and therapy. Previous studies showed that silibinin (SB), the major active component of Milk Thistle, could inhibit cell proliferation of a human prostate cancer cell line by stopping the cell cycle without causing cell death. This study further demonstrates the potential molecular mechanism by which Milk Thistle acts on androgen-responsive prostate cancer cells by inhibiting function of the AR. We observed that Silymarin (SM) and SB inhibited androgen-stimulated cell proliferation as well as androgen-stimulated secretion of both prostate-specific antigen (PSA) and human glandular kallikrein (hK2).Additionally, for the first time, we show that SM and SB diminished transactivation activity of the AR. However, SM did not affect AR levels and steroid-binding ability of total AR in western blotting and ligand-binding assays. Intriguingly, we found that nuclear AR levels are significantly reduced by SM and SB in the presence of androgens. This study provides a new insight into how Milk Thistle negatively modulates androgen action in prostate cancer cells.

That study doesn't even prove your point, it is talking about AR in the prostate, not androgens that prolifate muscle development.

[Juice Authority]

That study doesn't even prove your point, it is talking about AR in the prostate, not androgens that prolifate muscle development.

Didn't realize I was trying to prove a point. Anyway, apparently you overlooked all the bolds.

[Immortal Soldier]

Didn't realize I was trying to prove a point. Anyway, apparently you overlooked all the bolds.

No, I did. I have seen this study posted before in other forums in order to argue that milk thistle limits gains. Your mistake is taking one study and thinking it applies to the entire human body. The study is talking about AR in prostate cancer cells, the fact that the study mentioned that there is a potential for milk thistle to inhibit them does not therefore mean that it inhibts AR across the human body, milk thistle has no where near that kind of power in inhibiting Androgen receptors across the body or else there would be medical studies applauding the power of milk thistle to inhibit AR in other cancer cells in the rest of the body, not to mention dosages were not discussed so once again we don't know what levels of MT the person was ingesting to produce this inhibition effect on the cancer cells.

Hence this quote from the study you posted

"However, SM did not affect AR levels and steroid-binding ability of total AR in western blotting and ligand-binding assays."

I interpret it as meaning that even the ability to limit the AR in the prostate was not a total, but rather it was able to inhibit on a nuclear level in the prostate cancer line.

Any real arguement that milk thistle can limit gains would be through using the arguement that it deactivates or lessens the ability of the steroid to pass through the liver intact, which no evidence has supported besides some reduimentary observations in a couple of medical studies. Even then it wouldn't be enough to produce a noticeable effect in limitation of muscle gains.


This is my 2 cents on the matter

[Juice Authority]

No, I did. I have seen this study posted before in other forums in order to argue that milk thistle limits gains. Your mistake is taking one study and thinking it applies to the entire human body. The study is talking about AR in prostate cancer cells, the fact that the study mentioned that there is a potential for milk thistle to inhibit them does not therefore mean that it inhibts AR across the human body, milk thistle has no where near that kind of power in inhibiting Androgen receptors across the body or else there would be medical studies applauding the power of milk thistle to inhibit AR in other cancer cells in the rest of the body, not to mention dosages were not discussed so once again we don't know what levels of MT the person was ingesting to produce this inhibition effect on the cancer cells.

Hence this quote from the study you posted

"However, SM did not affect AR levels and steroid-binding ability of total AR in western blotting and ligand-binding assays."

I interpret it as meaning that even the ability to limit the AR in the prostate was not a total, but rather it was able to inhibit on a nuclear level in the prostate cancer line.

Any real arguement that milk thistle can limit gains would be through using the arguement that it deactivates or lessens the ability of the steroid to pass through the liver intact, which no evidence has supported besides some reduimentary observations in a couple of medical studies. Even then it wouldn't be enough to produce a noticeable effect in limitation of muscle gains.


This is my 2 cents on the matter

Bro, you missed my point. I'm not trying to debate this androgen topic because you can't really as there is no clear answer. It varies on the individual. You can even interpret the findings of that study differently. There are multiple ways of looking at it. That was why I posted that study along with differing perspectives from another thread at a different board where this very topic was discussed by me and others, not debated.

The point I was trying to make (initially) is that liver protectants actually do very little to keep liver values low while the liver is being stressed from AAS on-cycle. They are best used before and after a cycle. The part about it interfering with androgens was a secondary consideration.

I don't however hold the same opinion about fish oils, flex seed, *****s 3, 6, 9s. etc. for keeping cholesterol levels within the normal range while on-cycle.

[Swifto]

Bro, you missed my point. I'm not trying to debate this androgen topic because you can't really as there is no clear answer. It varies on the individual. You can even interpret the findings of that study differently. There are multiple ways of looking at it. That was why I posted that study along with differing perspectives from another thread at a different board where this very topic was discussed by me and others, not debated.

The point I was trying to make (initially) is that liver protectants actually do very little to keep liver values low while the liver is being stressed from AAS on-cycle. They are best used before and after a cycle. The part about it interfering with androgens was a secondary consideration.

I don't however hold the same opinion about fish oils, flex seed, *****s 3, 6, 9s. etc. for keeping cholesterol levels within the normal range while on-cycle.

Agreed.

Liver protectants and cleanses should be taken post cycle. A PCT for your liver, if you will.

It will regenerate anyway (if its functioning normally) in a few days. Wheather or not you think you need a supplements to aid in that is your own decision.

I ran Tbol for 14 weeks and consumed alcohol occassionally. My liver values ended up at 114, normal being 0-29. After 4 days they returned to normal after lowering my Tbol dose and taking MT. I blame the elevation on alcohol consumption though, not the Tbol.

Tamox and Clomid are also hepatoxic and I also experienced an elevation from them.

Not even going to discuss MT and its effects on the AR. Its not worth wasting time. Immortal hit the nail on the head.