Long term and continuous hrt with ancillaries.

[flatscat]

I have said in the past that my physician has recommended but not demanded short breaks in my therapy. He even initially only wanted me to do HCG during those breaks. I have also said that in my case, I feel my best during the rise and fall of my hormone levels to and from my peak between shots and do not try to keep my levels as constant as I can because of this.

Since we are not trying to optimize our bodies to compete and push our genetic thresholds while on hrt, is there any advantage/disadvantage to maintaining constant levels of the hormones to promote health and wellness? Realizing that in a purely natural state our levels are not constant in any way, shape or form - they rise and fall based on the environment we subject our bodies to.

Also, could it be that the patients perception of the therapy diminishes over time like so many other therapy's due to the fact they are now used to the better wellness as opposed to the feeling when they first started?

Thanks,

Flats

[bass]

good observations and questions Flats! subscribed...

[Drmagic]

Flats, I think you're right about perception, so much so that I tell my patients on their first visit that they will eventually get to a "new normal," and will not feel the same euphoria so to speak as they did in the first 3 - 6 months of TRT. By nature we always want to be better, feel better, achieve more but it becomes unhealthy above a certain threshold so I try to temper their natural tendency towards more is better.

I have recently started trying some protocols with breaks from TRT with HCG only - always try them myself before reccomending them to patients, I did a month of HCG only to give my body a break from the same routine which I had been on for 2 1/2 years, lost 5 pounds and felt pretty good after the first week. Back on TRT now but not sure it has changed anything for me as far as how I feel after restarting.

With everything else (exercise, nutrition, hell even career) I think it is good to change things up from time to time, keeps us primed. Our bodies were meant to constantly respond to changing levels of hormones and becomes complacent when it is constantly given what it needs so it is probably a good thing to take time off from time to time to let your system do some of the work it was built to do if it is still able. Don't have a shred of research to back this up and I will report back more as my patients report back to me but that is my 2 cents.

[Vettester]

Flats, I worked with a doctor a few years ago who emphasized that it was necessary to take a break while on TRT. His protocol recommendation was (if I remember it correctly) 10-12 weeks on testosterone, then 4 weeks off. During the 4 week off period, a patient would go cold turkey for 2 weeks, then run HCG every day for 2 weeks. I know this protocol sounds pretty bizarre, but this doctor is actually highly sought out, and lectures at many universities and medical conferences in the US and Europe.

Anyways, his rationale was just simply that the body needs a rest from exogenous testosterone, and a patient will be able to mitigate most of the sides associated with TRT by taking a break. I have ran his protocol, and several others over the past couple of years, and I have personally found that donating blood every 8 weeks works for me to keep a lot of the sides in check.

One interesting note about this doctor, he has had patients on HCG mono-therapy for 10+ years, and claims he's never had one case of a patient's leydig cells getting desensitized. He tends to think that subject is way over hyped. I've been using HCG for 2 years now, and it works just as good now as it did the day I started. So, that part of his routine is still going strong for me, but the exogenous testosterone is continuous throughout the year, with the equalizer of the sides being giving blood, and keeping other hormones like Preg and DHEA balanced, and keeping my E2 in check.

[bass]

Flats, I think you're right about perception, so much so that I tell my patients on their first visit that they will eventually get to a "new normal," and will not feel the same euphoria so to speak as they did in the first 3 - 6 months of TRT. By nature we always want to be better, feel better, achieve more but it becomes unhealthy above a certain threshold so I try to temper their natural tendency towards more is better.

I have recently started trying some protocols with breaks from TRT with HCG only - always try them myself before reccomending them to patients, I did a month of HCG only to give my body a break from the same routine which I had been on for 2 1/2 years, lost 5 pounds and felt pretty good after the first week. Back on TRT now but not sure it has changed anything for me as far as how I feel after restarting.

With everything else (exercise, nutrition, hell even career) I think it is good to change things up from time to time, keeps us primed. Our bodies were meant to constantly respond to changing levels of hormones and becomes complacent when it is constantly given what it needs so it is probably a good thing to take time off from time to time to let your system do some of the work it was built to do if it is still able. Don't have a shred of research to back this up and I will report back more as my patients report back to me but that is my 2 cents.

did you lose fat, muscle or both?

[Drmagic]

Probably a little fat and a lot of fluid, My weight has crept back up over the last 2 weeks since I restarted TRT - not the full 5 pounds but 1 or 2, I didn't change diet or exercise over this time.

[flatscat]

Flats, I think you're right about perception, so much so that I tell my patients on their first visit that they will eventually get to a "new normal," and will not feel the same euphoria so to speak as they did in the first 3 - 6 months of TRT. By nature we always want to be better, feel better, achieve more but it becomes unhealthy above a certain threshold so I try to temper their natural tendency towards more is better.

I have recently started trying some protocols with breaks from TRT with HCG only - always try them myself before reccomending them to patients, I did a month of HCG only to give my body a break from the same routine which I had been on for 2 1/2 years, lost 5 pounds and felt pretty good after the first week. Back on TRT now but not sure it has changed anything for me as far as how I feel after restarting.

With everything else (exercise, nutrition, hell even career) I think it is good to change things up from time to time, keeps us primed. Our bodies were meant to constantly respond to changing levels of hormones and becomes complacent when it is constantly given what it needs so it is probably a good thing to take time off from time to time to let your system do some of the work it was built to do if it is still able. Don't have a shred of research to back this up and I will report back more as my patients report back to me but that is my 2 cents.

Thanks for your comments. I agree with this and change things up pretty frequently - dose, dosing schedule (140-200mg's/every 6-10 days) - hell I even went off for 20 days here in the past month (while still on HCG) just to give my body a rest from the t and to see what would happen and how I would feel - it was not pleasant, but I am glad I did it.

There is a way of thinking supported by very well know doc's that the more stable you can keep your levels - the better. I understand the premise (although don't agree), and I understand they are trying to keep levels steady to reduce possible e2 spikes and to reduce the peaks and valley's of how the patient feels. This has led to more frequent injections, and for some to go sub q injections.

I don't know if I am alone in my situation where I actually feel better on my way up and down - not that I feel bad at any point in the week - I just know my body and know that as levels rise and fall is when I feel my best. No problems with E2 as long as I stay on .25 at least twice a week.

Thoughts Anyone?

[flatscat]

Flats, I worked with a doctor a few years ago who emphasized that it was necessary to take a break while on TRT. His protocol recommendation was (if I remember it correctly) 10-12 weeks on testosterone, then 4 weeks off. During the 4 week off period, a patient would go cold turkey for 2 weeks, then run HCG every day for 2 weeks. I know this protocol sounds pretty bizarre, but this doctor is actually highly sought out, and lectures at many universities and medical conferences in the US and Europe.

Anyways, his rationale was just simply that the body needs a rest from exogenous testosterone, and a patient will be able to mitigate most of the sides associated with TRT by taking a break. I have ran his protocol, and several others over the past couple of years, and I have personally found that donating blood every 8 weeks works for me to keep a lot of the sides in check.

One interesting note about this doctor, he has had patients on HCG mono-therapy for 10+ years, and claims he's never had one case of a patient's leydig cells getting desensitized. He tends to think that subject is way over hyped. I've been using HCG for 2 years now, and it works just as good now as it did the day I started. So, that part of his routine is still going strong for me, but the exogenous testosterone is continuous throughout the year, with the equalizer of the sides being giving blood, and keeping other hormones like Preg and DHEA balanced, and keeping my E2 in check.

thanks vette - i have ordered some preg/dhea cream - gonna give it a shot - never used it - anyone have any thoughts on what to expect from it?

[lvs]

I have tried both, and to be honest at 15mg per day of each I haven't felt any difference... but perhaps you aren't suppose to and I'm sure one person will react differently than another. flats let us know your personal experience once you give it a go...

thanks vette - i have ordered some preg/dhea cream - gonna give it a shot - never used it - anyone have any thoughts on what to expect from it?

[JD250]

Interesting thread.

There is a thread in this forum titled DHEA/pregnelone search it out, had some personal experiences from a couple people.

As far as keeping everything as level as possible.....I agree with that approach, for me this damn e2 is a sensitive matter and test levels going up and down isn't conducive to controlling e2 in a close way. I envy the guys that don't struggle with e2 issues, not that I have major problems but small fluctuations in doses seem to affect me alot.

[flatscat]

OK, had 5 applications of the cream - only thing I have noticed that past two nights is sleep is much better - like dead to the world sleep. No change in daily routine. Weird...

[flatscat]

Flats, I think you're right about perception, so much so that I tell my patients on their first visit that they will eventually get to a "new normal," and will not feel the same euphoria so to speak as they did in the first 3 - 6 months of TRT. By nature we always want to be better, feel better, achieve more but it becomes unhealthy above a certain threshold so I try to temper their natural tendency towards more is better.

I have recently started trying some protocols with breaks from TRT with HCG only - always try them myself before reccomending them to patients, I did a month of HCG only to give my body a break from the same routine which I had been on for 2 1/2 years, lost 5 pounds and felt pretty good after the first week. Back on TRT now but not sure it has changed anything for me as far as how I feel after restarting.

With everything else (exercise, nutrition, hell even career) I think it is good to change things up from time to time, keeps us primed. Our bodies were meant to constantly respond to changing levels of hormones and becomes complacent when it is constantly given what it needs so it is probably a good thing to take time off from time to time to let your system do some of the work it was built to do if it is still able. Don't have a shred of research to back this up and I will report back more as my patients report back to me but that is my 2 cents.

Does this comment apply to a long term look at hrt, or are you also referring to short term. In other words... since our levels are constantly going up and down due to the environment we expose our bodies to, and just the natural way our hormone levels fluctuate, do you feel trying to maintain as constant level of t as possible by injection frequency is the best route? What are your thoughts about me feeling my best as my levels rise and fall in between injections?

Thanks

[kelkel]

Flats, I think you're right about perception, so much so that I tell my patients on their first visit that they will eventually get to a "new normal," and will not feel the same euphoria so to speak as they did in the first 3 - 6 months of TRT. By nature we always want to be better, feel better, achieve more but it becomes unhealthy above a certain threshold so I try to temper their natural tendency towards more is better.

I have recently started trying some protocols with breaks from TRT with HCG only - always try them myself before reccomending them to patients, I did a month of HCG only to give my body a break from the same routine which I had been on for 2 1/2 years, lost 5 pounds and felt pretty good after the first week. Back on TRT now but not sure it has changed anything for me as far as how I feel after restarting.

With everything else (exercise, nutrition, hell even career) I think it is good to change things up from time to time, keeps us primed. Our bodies were meant to constantly respond to changing levels of hormones and becomes complacent when it is constantly given what it needs so it is probably a good thing to take time off from time to time to let your system do some of the work it was built to do if it is still able. Don't have a shred of research to back this up and I will report back more as my patients report back to me but that is my 2 cents.

How does this apply to people who are not just low T, but basically have little to no T production on their own?

[steroid.com 1]

Leave it to Flats to create an intelligent and engaging thread...thanks bro!

IMO, the body thrives on regularity which in and of itself can have a lot of interpretation. I think taking a 4 week break from exogenous test is probably more hurtful than beneficial. Think about it for a minute; if a man is on a TRT protocol he's essentially shut down and it's pretty damn hard to re-start. The outcome is that a man is probably going to feel like shit during that break while throwing his body into the tank.

What my Doc has recommended, and Flats you do this, is to change up dosage amounts and injection practice. Therefore, instead of 60 mg twice a week IM I will go with 40 mg and 80 mg and mix that up. I also mix in SQ and IM injections as well. At the end of the day I am still getting 120 mg of Test each week just changing up the dosages and injection types.

Do I feel any different?

Nope, I haven't felt a thing LOL...but my BW is always spot on

Flats, adding in DHEA and Preg can make sleep better, just make sure to take both in the AM as some men report of it acting as a stimulant. Not sure if you are going to "feel" any thing adding these two hormones in but for some men to back fill the pathways is just a good idea and 15 mg of both isn't really a lot anyway.

[flatscat]

72 of dhea. And 15 of preg. I think..

[--->>405<<---]

So then what i should be taking test,hcg,ai,dhea,andPregnenolone?? The current test im on is 150mg/week so i should take 1.5mg ai split into three .5mg doses and 250 iu hcg 2x/week and then how much dhea?? And 15mg pergnenolone?? Do i get the preg and dhea fr doc or otc?? Thx .. Sry to hijack

[flatscat]

Leave it to Flats to create an intelligent and engaging thread...thanks bro!

IMO, the body thrives on regularity which in and of itself can have a lot of interpretation. I think taking a 4 week break from exogenous test is probably more hurtful than beneficial. Think about it for a minute; if a man is on a TRT protocol he's essentially shut down and it's pretty damn hard to re-start. The outcome is that a man is probably going to feel like shit during that break while throwing his body into the tank.

What my Doc has recommended, and Flats you do this, is to change up dosage amounts and injection practice. Therefore, instead of 60 mg twice a week IM I will go with 40 mg and 80 mg and mix that up. I also mix in SQ and IM injections as well. At the end of the day I am still getting 120 mg of Test each week just changing up the dosages and injection types.

Do I feel any different?

Nope, I haven't felt a thing LOL...but my BW is always spot on

Flats, adding in DHEA and Preg can make sleep better, just make sure to take both in the AM as some men report of it acting as a stimulant. Not sure if you are going to "feel" any thing adding these two hormones in but for some men to back fill the pathways is just a good idea and 15 mg of both isn't really a lot anyway.

Didn't know you did this GD. I think as long as you don't go below mid normal levels on your t, changing things up with your protocol is a good thing.

I recently took about a 21 day break (my choice). It was not too pleasant the last week and a half. But.... I truly do either feel better now that I am back on, OR realize how much BETTER I feel when I am on. Either way, it was a good thing for me. Not saying everyone should do it - just my experience...

[JohnnyVegas]

I know this will sound like a joke, but I am serious...

I read the comments about the body needing to deal with varying hormone levels with interest and realized that during the past year I have not had consistent levels...but rather than having low points with no Test, I have had high points with extra Test. Does hormone level variance need to be from zero to normal, or can it be different levels without resorting to a crash-inducing lack of hormones? Do we need to crash so that our body resets the receptors or something? I felt awful when my Test was at 220...I don't want to feel what it is like to be completely shut down.

[flatscat]

Johnny,

I don't think there will be any replies that say you need to crash to reset receptors. I just did it because I had been on therapy for a while, not feeling bad, but not experiencing the same euphoria (for a lack of a better word) that I did when I began. I think I just settled into it, and like most things in our lives - when things are good - I just got used to it. So, I was just taking a break (and my crash was not pleasant). I went about as long as I wanted to off - then jumped back on. Took HCG the whole time off - so had some help there. I do feel kinda recharged and refocused now that I am back on, and am looking forward to my next jab (in about 10 min's).

When I say that I feel my best when my levels are on their way up and down - my levels NEVER go below 600 or so - I take 200/week and at the high I am about 1100 +/- and low has never been below 600 give or take depending on if I go 6 days in between or 8 days.

So, I was probably just resetting my mind, not my receptors.

Hope that helps.

[JohnnyVegas]

I didn't even know if "receptors" was the right word. I just wondered if there was a diminishing effect that happens when we are one for a long time. I have been on for almost one year and feel great. I never had euphoria though...just felt like I was back to a good normal. Maybe it is because I don't think of it often. I just go about my life without thinking about it. Well, other than when I am here talking about it. Heh.

[steroid.com 1]

I believe the "break period" theory revolved around the thought that constant exogenous test can cause receptor down regulation. That theory can be debunked simply do to the fact that the half life of receptors are such that they are turning around at a pretty quick pace.

What happened to Flats, tanking, will happen to most men to varying degrees if and when they decide to take a break.

The body thrives on regularity!