For Those With Knowledge and Brains Only - Thx

[LittleNuts]

Hi Guys

Considering my first real cycle - Have mucked about with sus 250 1ml p/w for 6 weeks once, and 2m p/w for 3-4 weeks - Silly and dumb stuff really

Did notice some water retention on the sus 250 so considering Test Prop and doing it properly

Managed to get my hands on 30ml of Tren (75mg p/m) 40ml of Test Prop (100mg p/m) I have Novaldex and Arimidex for PCT also have tub of Clen in the form of gel

Details
29yrs Old
200lbs
16% BF
Been training on and off for 5 yrs
Serious training for last 3 months (1hour gym 5 days per week and riding 25mile per day)

Am looking at gaining lean mass only - I eat very clean and do a heap of cardio

Now firstly I have done a shitload of research and know that tren is not a good idea considering my experience, is this correct or is it crap? (So am thinking not to do this depending on advice off this thread)

Considering
400mg of test prop per week for 10 weeks (1ml EOD) not phased with pinning or soreness
If I was to do Tren with cycle it would be Mon/Wed/Fri 1ml of Tren and 1ml Test Prop in one shot

Questions
1. Is the Tren a bad idea am I doing the right thing by running test prop only (Could I get away with it - What are the risks?)
2. How can I manage Water retention if it occurs?
3. I do alot of Cardio ride 25 miles every day - Is this bad on cycle are there risks with heart ect?
4. I have Clen (gel) is this dangerous to run with cycle?
5. I have already injected 1ml sus 250 each week for the past 2 weeks - Is this bad will it affect should I alter dose because of this??? I know a bit silly but was planning on doing this with tren before research
7. Diet - I am currently eating very very clean - Carbs only every 3 days and very low complex oats sweet potato ect - Should I continue this on cycle
6. Lastly can someone reccomend some dosages for my PCT and when I should start

Any help would be greatly appreciated alot of info I know - Hope I havent overdone it - just trying to get it right

[Razor]

This is the best first post I have every seen....period. Thanks and I wil spend some time reading it and give you answers. Would you mind listing you goals. More detailed than gaining lean mass only..thats everyones goal..

[LittleNuts]

Thanks mate

Goals are to get under 10% BF - May not be possible on cycle???
Hoping to gain 12 -15 lbs on Test Prop only if I was to take Tren with Test Prop 15lbs - 20lbs (Dont know if this is realistic or not)

My view is I will drop lbs due to BF% goal and actual muscle gain will probe be a bit more than listed due to this

Im happy to gain more - This is what I thinks appropiate and realistic based on research

Is that what you mean by goals??? Sorry dude not 100% sure what you mean here am I being specific enough??


Also do have access to Letrozole if that helps with PCT/water retention ect

[Razor]

Hi Guys

Considering my first real cycle - Have mucked about with sus 250 1ml p/w for 6 weeks once, and 2m p/w for 3-4 weeks - Silly and dumb stuff really

Did notice some water retention on the sus 250 so considering Test Prop and doing it properly

Managed to get my hands on 30ml of Tren (75mg p/m) 40ml of Test Prop (100mg p/m) I have Novaldex and Arimidex for PCT also have tub of Clen in the form of gel

Details
29yrs Old
200lbs
16% BF
Been training on and off for 5 yrs
Serious training for last 3 months (1hour gym 5 days per week and riding 25mile per day)

Am looking at gaining lean mass only - I eat very clean and do a heap of cardio

Now firstly I have done a shitload of research and know that tren is not a good idea considering my experience, is this correct or is it crap? (So am thinking not to do this depending on advice off this thread)

Considering
400mg of test prop per week for 10 weeks (1ml EOD) not phased with pinning or soreness
If I was to do Tren with cycle it would be Mon/Wed/Fri 1ml of Tren and 1ml Test Prop in one shot

Questions
1. Is the Tren a bad idea am I doing the right thing by running test prop only (Could I get away with it - What are the risks?) Always run test as a base, seems you got that down
2. How can I manage Water retention if it occurs? OCT such as aromasin, liqidex or letro, read swifto's post about ai OCT
3. I do alot of Cardio ride 25 miles every day - Is this bad on cycle are there risks with heart ect? Thats not that much on a bike, but could be to much if your looking to gain mass
4. I have Clen (gel) is this dangerous to run with cycle? I would skip the clen
5. I have already injected 1ml sus 250 each week for the past 2 weeks - Is this bad will it affect should I alter dose because of this??? I know a bit silly but was planning on doing this with tren before research..Why did you do this?
7. Diet - I am currently eating very very clean - Carbs only every 3 days and very low complex oats sweet potato ect - Should I continue this on cycle. Going to need to eat clean and a lot of you want to lower bf%, keep gyno and water retention down and get to your goals
6. Lastly can someone reccomend some dosages for my PCT and when I should start. Torem and nova or Torem and Raloxifene

Any help would be greatly appreciated alot of info I know - Hope I havent overdone it - just trying to get it right

Answers in bold, feel free to ask more.

[LittleNuts]

Thanks Razr

Was hoping for a little more detail - Firstly I did the sus 250 cause im a moron clearly!! - I was going to run 250mg per week with Tren but start sus 250 for 2 weeks before hand - Then I did some research and realised I jumped the gun a bit - Very low doses though shouldnt affect me too much right??

Skip Clen no dramas
Ill read swifrospost - Thank you
The cardio is on the road 2 35min sessions one in morning and one in evening 35min each - Up and down hills - Thanks for making me feel like a wimp
Is Tren OK for me considering experience/age ect - I want to run it but research goes against it???
Any natural ways of managing water retention??
Please help with PCT - I have Novaldex and Arimidex - Can I use this (Dont know if i can obtain what you listed)
If I use those for PCT what is dosage and how long

Sorry for bombarding you dude- No stress if you cant be stuffed

[Razor]

Thanks Razr

Was hoping for a little more detail - Firstly I did the sus 250 cause im a moron clearly!! - I was going to run 250mg per week with Tren but start sus 250 for 2 weeks before hand - Then I did some research and realised I jumped the gun a bit - Very low doses though shouldnt affect me too much right??

Skip Clen no dramasGood Choice, I see no purpose in it for this, since you are not competing
Ill read swifrospost - Thank youGood idea
The cardio is on the road 2 35min sessions one in morning and one in evening 35min each - Up and down hills - Thanks for making me feel like a wimp I used to be a rider, riding and lifting just dont go together imo.. Have a Fiji SST 3.0 2011
Is Tren OK for me considering experience/age ect - I want to run it but research goes against it??? Depends on your goals, can have nasty sides if you dont know what you have coming at you or what you are putting in your body
Any natural ways of managing water retention?? Yes, eat clean and keep bf% down and cardio up as well as use an AI.
Please help with PCT - I have Novaldex and Arimidex - Can I use this (Dont know if i can obtain what you listed), these can be found at ar-r.co
If I use those for PCT what is dosage and how long nova 40/40/30/20.
Adex I have never run for PCT so someone else will have to chime in, i recommend clomid with nova Clomid 50/50/25/25

Sorry for bombarding you dude- No stress if you cant be stuffed

No worries

How much sust do you have in your system right now?

[The Titan99]

Arimidex isn't really what you need for PCT. it's an AI (aromatase inhibitor). Where Nolvadex aka Tamoxifen is a SERM. If you use the AI while on cycle (to control estrogen) you will need it in PCT, if not, then don't. The only real way to determine if you need this is to get blood work mid cycle specifically to check that your estrogen is in check. I tend to not use them because I am very non susceptible to sides. I've done as much as 2 grams of test without so much as a pimple, a nipple tingle or a hair follicle switching from my head to my back!! Lol! That said, Swifto makes the very logical point that those are the guy's who REALLY need to check estro, since it is a carcinogen and would be more of a silent killer for guy's like me rater than those who get nipple soreness on 350 mg's. What you should do is get another SERM for PCT. Most available is clomid, but I used to prefer torem. For dosing/length, it will depend on whether you do the tren or how long the cycle goes overall. Normally 4-5 weeks with double dosing for the first week. MG wise it would look like this. On the Nolva go 40/20/20/20. Those are weeks and mg's so 40 mg per day for the first week, followed by 20 mg per day for the next three weeks following. Dose the clomid 100/50/50/50.

One thing jumping out at me is the lack of HCG. You really NEED this while on cycle. Swifto has another article explaining the chemistry of it but all I know is I'd never be without it again. 250 i.u.'s twice a week right up to the day before PCT will make the whole post cycle thing 5 times easier. Keep your balls from atrophy, helps with libido and gets the things ready to switch back into gear immediately after the exogenous test clears your body. Good luck!

[LittleNuts]

I had 1ml Tuesday last week and 1ml on Monday this week....not much ....will this impact my plans?

[marcus300]

Bad idea to do tren on your first/second cycle, its an advanced compound so stick with the basic for your first few cycles,
Its also wise to have more time in the gym than 3 months worth of serious training,
You also need to drop your bf down to under 14% before cycling and I would just do a proper test only cycle and see how you respond.

[warren916]

I have a straight forward suggestion for you...

First off drop the Trenbolone.
Tren is very powerful and carries many side effects for a novice like you to be using, and you would need to invest more money into preventive measures (hcg, caber, aggressive pct...)

Instead of tren, why not add a lean mass oral to your cycle for a few weeks?? Try looking into turanabol or dianabol.

So that said...youll gain plenty with prop only, and dont have to worry about bloating if you have a proper Aromatise Inhibitor..

Cycle
Turanabol 40mg/day 1-6 (optional)
Test Prop 600mg/week 1-12
HCG 250iu/week 1-10 (optional, recommended)

Anti Estrogens
Aromasin 12.5-25mg/day 1-19 (dosage dependent on bloating, or gyno)
OR
Arimidex 0.5-1mg/day 1-19 (dosage dependent on bloating, or gyno)

PCT
Clomid 50mg/day 13-19
Nolvadex 40mg/day 13-19

[stpete]

1)Suggest test only for now after you drop some bf.
2)Adex helps
3)Why 25 miles?
4)25 miles and clen isn't in my bulking routine.
5)You can add the prop and drop the sus no problem
6)Need to hit the Nutrition Section as eating carbs every 3 days doesn't sound so good.
7)Hit the PCT Section as you need to revise yours. I will tell you that it should include nolva and clomid.

[Bonaparte]

I was going to answer, but idk if I'm knowledgeable enough to advise a guy on his first real cycle.

[Bossman]

Thanks mate
Goals are to get under 10% BF - May not be possible on cycle???
Hoping to gain 12 -15 lbs on Test Prop only if I was to take Tren with Test Prop 15lbs - 20lbs (Dont know if this is realistic or not)

Wouldn't it be nice to lose fat and gain muscle? This is a very common goal but not realistic. Best to pick bulk or cut and structure your diet/training for your goal. If you're in a calorie deficit you will not gain muscle. The AAS will help you retain more muscle then a natural person but gains will not be likely.

[LittleNuts]

1)Suggest test only for now after you drop some bf. Took BF test again last night (IM In Aus) and new reading was 13.4% 2)Adex helps - I was told for bloating
3)Why 25 miles? - I ride to and from work each day
4)25 miles and clen isn't in my bulking routine. I will not be using the clen
5)You can add the prop and drop the sus no problem - Did so today 1ml of test prop (100mg) and no more 250
6)Need to hit the Nutrition Section as eating carbs every 3 days doesn't sound so good. - Im still eating a heap of veggies just no potatoes will check out nutrition section - No carbs meant no complex carbs like bread pasta rice etc
7)Hit the PCT Section as you need to revise yours. I will tell you that it should include nolva and clomid.

Iknow ill prob get slammed for this but was told PCt is not that important if its under 1000mg of test per week - I will be using 400mg - was thinking of taking 20mg nov for 4 weeks after cycle anyways though...We struggle to get clomid in Aus

[gixxerboy1]

who ever told you that about pct is an idiot.
If all you can get is nolva i would at least do 40mg for 2 weeks then 20 for 2 more weeks

[LittleNuts]

who ever told you that about pct is an idiot.
If all you can get is nolva i would at least do 40mg for 2 weeks then 20 for 2 more weeks

Yeah I figured that - Not going to take any risks - You only have one body - Was told that anything over 20mg is pointless 20mg or 40mg gets same result - Whats your view on this. Also read something abbout Nov having a negative impact on gains - Is this true??

[gearbox]

I was going to answer, but idk if I'm knowledgeable enough to advise a guy on his first real cycle.

seriously hilarious....thanks for the laugh..should i run a tren only cycle

[LittleNuts]

seriously hilarious....thanks for the laugh..should i run a tren only cycle

Gearbox - Clearly you are one of the individuals with out a brain that I was talking about....I posted that as I have done a lot of research on forums where numbskulls comment for the sake of doing so with no actual knowledge....Whats more annoying is people who dont read posts correctly and answer with pointless replies...Much like yourself in this example - Where in this post has anyone mentioned a Tren only cycle??

Do everyone a favour and take the time to read a post correctly if your going to bother with your pointless and worthless comments - Appreciate the help idiot

[Flier]

Yeah I figured that - Not going to take any risks - You only have one body - Was told that anything over 20mg is pointless 20mg or 40mg gets same result - Whats your view on this. Also read something abbout Nov having a negative impact on gains - Is this true??

No, follow gixxe´s layout.
Nolv can have a negative impact on gains by driving E2 too low, but you are doing Nolv in PCT, not during cycle. And 40/20 is light/normal.

[xo3et]

Hi LittleNutts,

Whats your height?

[gearbox]

Gearbox - Clearly you are one of the individuals with out a brain that I was talking about....I posted that as I have done a lot of research on forums where numbskulls comment for the sake of doing so with no actual knowledge....Whats more annoying is people who dont read posts correctly and answer with pointless replies...Much like yourself in this example - Where in this post has anyone mentioned a Tren only cycle??

Do everyone a favour and take the time to read a post correctly if your going to bother with your pointless and worthless comments - Appreciate the help idiot

little nuts relax...dont be so sensitive.. the tren was a joke b/c if you know bonaparte he is one of the best on here... and for pct get clomid with nlova if possible but i think all you can get in nolva..and no one asked do you think water retention was due to lack of water of too high sodium...how much water are you drinking

[jimmyinkedup]

Nolv can have a negative impact on gains by driving E2 too low,

This is not accurate....its not even something nolva will do.

[jimmyinkedup]

Gearbox - Clearly you are one of the individuals with out a brain that I was talking about....I posted that as I have done a lot of research on forums where numbskulls comment for the sake of doing so with no actual knowledge....Whats more annoying is people who dont read posts correctly and answer with pointless replies...'Much like yourself in this example - Where in this post has anyone mentioned a Tren only cycle??

Do everyone a favour and take the time to read a post correctly if your going to bother with your pointless and worthless comments - Appreciate the help idiot

Know what I find annoying? Someone that joins the forum and is pretentous enough to title their thread "For those with knowledge and brains only". Thus my lack of input. I guess its all perception. Best of luck to you.

Note: Just take a step back. Unlike many forums the members here are some of the most helpful and knowledgable you will find. The sooner you realize that and stop titling threads like this -the sonner you can get all the board has to offer. Again best of luck to you.

[BBrian]

Know what I find annoying? Someone that joins the forum and is pretentous enough to title their thread "For those with knowledge and brains only". Thus my lack of input. I guess its all perception. Best of luck to you.

Yeah I was worried that I didn't have enough brains to add any input to this one.

[The Titan99]

Know what I find annoying? Someone that joins the forum and is pretentous enough to title their thread "For those with knowledge and brains only". Thus my lack of input. I guess its all perception. Best of luck to you.

Got to agree there...

[Flier]

This is not accurate....its not even something nolva will do.

Ok, let me elaborate.
Less E, less water retention.
Less water in the muscle cells = shrinking cells = Protein/muscle breakdown.
Hence important to maintain E at an adequate level especially during cycle, when we want to maximize muscle synthesis.
What is adequate....? Dunno, but I know Nolva can kill E2.
Not saying I´m right about this, but this is my understanding.

[jimmyinkedup]

Ok, let me elaborate.
Less E, less water retention.
Less water in the muscle cells = shrinking cells = Protein/muscle breakdown.
Hence important to maintain E at an adequate level especially during cycle, when we want to maximize muscle synthesis.
What is adequate....? Dunno, but I know Nolva can kill E2.
Not saying I´m right about this, but this is my understanding.

Nolva will not lower e2 at all.
You are thinking of an AI......ie: letrozole.....
Simplified version: Nolva will selectively block estrogen receptors (ie: in breast tissue) so estrogen cannot exert its effects there - but it doesnt lower e2 ....in fact to a very very small degree it may increase it slightly.

[Bonaparte]

Ok, let me elaborate.
Less E, less water retention.
Less water in the muscle cells = shrinking cells = Protein/muscle breakdown.
Hence important to maintain E at an adequate level especially during cycle, when we want to maximize muscle synthesis.
What is adequate....? Dunno, but I know Nolva can kill E2.
Not saying I´m right about this, but this is my understanding.

Jimmy already covered the fact that Nolva is not an AI.
And I will add that water retention from estrogen has no effect on muscle size/hydration. Water retention within the muscle is mainly influenced by glycogen.
I've never looked bigger than when I was running Letro, since the fatty sub-Q tissue shrinks (since this is where estrogen causes water retention) and the muscle stays the same.

[Flier]

Ok, cool. Learn something here every day

The reason I said Nolva kills E2, is because my Endo told me this a few months ago when I showed him my PCT meds.
He said this in the context of me experiencing ED and low libido.
Never looked it up to back up his claim.

[D7M]

It's also common bro science that nolva will hinder gains because it lowers IGF levels, but 1) it only lowers IGF so insignificantly that it really won't hurt gains, and 2) I, as well as many others, have run nolva on cycle and never had a problem gaining.

[BBrian]

Jimmy already covered the fact that Nolva is not an AI.
And I will add that water retention from estrogen has no effect on muscle size/hydration. Water retention within the muscle is mainly influenced by glycogen.
I've never looked bigger than when I was running Letro, since the fatty sub-Q tissue shrinks (since this is where estrogen causes water retention) and the muscle stays the same.

Do all AI's have this affect as well?

[JohnnyVegas]

Gearbox - Clearly you are one of the individuals with out a brain that I was talking about....I posted that as I have done a lot of research on forums where numbskulls comment for the sake of doing so with no actual knowledge....Whats more annoying is people who dont read posts correctly and answer with pointless replies...Much like yourself in this example - Where in this post has anyone mentioned a Tren only cycle??

Do everyone a favour and take the time to read a post correctly if your going to bother with your pointless and worthless comments - Appreciate the help idiot

Just in case you missed Gearbox's response, I will tell you that he was being sarcastic and replying (in jest) to something said by another member.

...also, the more of a jerk you are, the less help you will get.

[gearbox]

Thanks johnny...and again Bonaparte thanks for the incredible info. Along with jimmy and d7m. You guys are truly awesome. Gotta confess more about sub -Q tissue now..

[Bonaparte]

Do all AI's have this affect as well?

Yeah. But Letro is the most powerful.
But I wouldn't recommend doing it just for aesthetics, as it is harsh on your lipids and other systems. I only used it for a few weeks to reverse some gyno from deca.

[LittleNuts]

Sorry to everyone was late at night and clearly got very sensitive.....Apologies gearbox I thought you were being an asshole

The reason for titling my thread like that was to get the best of the best and create some interest around the thread and try and stay away from the standard "First cycle please help" If I knew that i would get better advice using something like this I would have....Please ignore my ignorance....Already have learnt so much off this so thanks to everyone a heap...I dont want to come on here and offend sorry once again not my intention

OK so my plan is the following any advice would be great

Dropping the Tren - Ill save that for a rainy day
1ml(100mg of Test Prop) EOD - 400mg p/w
Started yesterday and I have my 2nd shot tomorrow
Already have 500mg of Sus 250 in my system - Last shot was 5 days a go and shot before that was 12 days ago - DUMB MOVE I KNOW
Going to start Nolv - 20mg ED for 4weeks starting 3 days after my last shot of Test Prop - (Is this OK) Very hard to get PCT stuff in Australia - Cant believe someone told me that PCT isnt important if under 1000mg of test p/w - WHAT AN IDIOT, Ill be letting him know so he doesnt say that crap to anyone else

Diet

Carb Cyclying - Looks something like this
Day 1 -3

7am - (Breaky) 4 Egg whites 2 full egg omelete with avocado onion red pepper smoked salmon - Also have multi Vit and fish oil
8am - Cycle to work (40 mins - 18km)
9:30 am - Protein Shake
12pm - (Lunch) Meat from previous nights dinner with a mix of veggies - (Nothing that grows in ground) Beans Brovili Cauliflower Eggplant etc etc
1pm - Workout
2pm - Protein Shake
4:30pm - 2 cans of tuna with snow peas/green beans ect
6pm - Cycle Home (40 mins - 18km)
7:30pm - 8:00pm - (Dinner) Whatever meat with salad or veggies - Again same rule nothing that grows in ground


On a carb day - Day 4

Same times and excs routine
Breakfast I have rolled oats instead of omelete
Lunch I have brown rice sushi or sourdough/dark rye sandwiches - still have meat
Dinner I add carbs to meat but strict - Only brown/Basmati rice sweet potato ect (Good Carbs only)
Also very low fat meals when eating carbs

Then back to non carb days

How does this look any advice??? - The hard thing will be having the Tren in the cupboard and not being tempted to stack after 2 -3 weeks - Ill be good though a lot of sound advice is telling me BAD IDEA!

[The Titan99]

I really don't think your going to like that no carb thing. If it does any good at all I think your workout intensity is going to suffer. Plus, that's not really carb cycling. I keep carbs around 200-220 while cutting, then flip protein intake and carbs twice a week, one day throwing in some junk carbs (strawberry pancakes being my current favorite). I do these on back and leg day. @ of the 5 remaining days I roll carbs down to 100-150, usually on rest days. I can get down to 7-8% easily like this and still have plenty of gas at the end of those long ones...

I'm 6'2" 255 lbs and BF is about what the avi is. I carry a little more on my back than most and like to stay around 10-12% for maximum growth. Goodluck!!

[The Titan99]

I really don't think your going to like that no carb thing. If it does any good at all I think your workout intensity is going to suffer. Plus, that's not really carb cycling. I keep carbs around 200-220 while cutting, then flip protein intake and carbs twice a week, one day throwing in some junk carbs (strawberry pancakes being my current favorite). I do these on back and leg day. 2 of the 5 remaining days I roll carbs down to 100-150, usually on rest days. I can get down to 7-8% easily like this and still have plenty of gas at the end of those long ones...

I'm 6'2" 255 lbs and BF is about what the avi is. I carry a little more on my back than most and like to stay around 10-12% for maximum growth. Goodluck!!

[gearbox]

Use the ar site to order the ai and pct. Do not start ur cycle or any cycle until pct is ready to go. U never know what life throws.at.u

[JohnnyVegas]

Use the ar site to order the ai and pct. Do not start ur cycle or any cycle until pct is ready to go. U never know what life throws.at.u

Absolutely! Take this seriously. There are a lot of reasons you might need to stop your cycle, and you want to have your PCT in hand and ready to go. You could have an injury, bike accident (knock on wood) or a health issue like elevated blood pressure.

[LittleNuts]

Use the ar site to order the ai and pct. Do not start ur cycle or any cycle until pct is ready to go. U never know what life throws.at.u

Thanks Gearbox - Ive always been a bit dodge getting over web are u sure that sites legit???