My first Injection

[SEOINAGE]

Well I had an appointment yesterday, and he was completely fine with me doing injections rather than the gel he originally suggested. Did my first pin there and they guided me through it. So it will be 100 mg each week, which I'm fine with as a starting dose, and in 4 weeks before my fourth pin I will get blood work.

But here is the problem. I tried to talk to him about the benefits of HCG and the need to be on it because I want to continue to have children, he seemed to not be concerned and said after a few weeks of being off of test I will start producing sperm again fine because I can right now. It might take a few months to bring it all the way back. But he says he felt like I had other motives behind wanting the HCG and that he couldn't just prescribe it to me.

The other problem, AI, he didn't think there is anything wrong with having high estrogen and that I should get surgery to have the breast tissue removed anyways. Maybe I should have gotten documents but I didn't think he would want me handing him articles trying to educate him. his argument was he has men that want to be women that he gives high doses of estrogen without problems, not really what I want to hear.

Sad thing is other than the long wait I like this doctor and would like to stick with him if I could, but my body is pretty important to me. I even said if I am having certain problems will you check estrogen and he just tried to give me some other explanation. There is only one other endo I could talk to within network. And I am already driving two hours to this doctor, anything else would be at least 4 hours or more away.

I understand I might not need an AI, i just wanted him to be willing to do blood work if needed. But the HCG and fertility was one of my biggest concerns. Granted I probably didn't make the strongest arguments, but its going to be really hard to even talk to him on the phone if i'm having a problems before my next appointment.

edit: one good thing is the doctor is going to contact my insurance and try and get me preapproved for gyno removal, coming from him saying it was based on a medical condition and not caused by something I have done is more likely to have insurance cover it. If so I will get it done right away, if not I will do it next year.

[sirupate]

Well, like a number of guys here, you could self-source your HCG. At low doses, I doubt it will be a problem for your treatment. If your doctor won't measure E2, you can also arrange your own bloodwork to find out where you stand, then treat conservatively as necessary using research chems.

It does seem damn hard to find a doctor who is familiar with what should be done. I am also put off by the doctors who are interpreting your/our motives for wanting AI's or HCG....

[SEOINAGE]

Well, like a number of guys here, you could self-source your HCG. At low doses, I doubt it will be a problem for your treatment. If your doctor won't measure E2, you can also arrange your own bloodwork to find out where you stand, then treat conservatively as necessary using research chems.

It does seem damn hard to find a doctor who is familiar with what should be done. I am also put off by the doctors who are interpreting your/our motives for wanting AI's or HCG....

When I mentioned doing this my wife was really uneasy about it, but i told her some people have no choice if their doctors don't cooperate, that is something she might just have to get over. The way you state it makes it sound like a simple task, and maybe it is, so that is promising. The doctor doesn't even know if I really need test or not, its all dependent on how I feel, as he has put it if it doesn't toot my horn theres no reason to stay on it. So it sounds more trial based. But from what I hear it can take some time to feel like it is making a difference in your quality of life.

[kelkel]

Your doctor is tragically uninformed at best. If you really like this guy you need to find a way to respectfully educate him regarding AI's and HCG. You've been here awhile and I'm sure you have read the stickies. I wonder how he'd feel if his testicals began to shrink and he grew excess breast tissue! I'm sure his own protocol would include those items.

If you went to Michigan and saw Crisler would your own insurance reimburse you?

[SEOINAGE]

If its out of network they cover it at 80 20 if it is an emergency, but in this case I think it would be covered 50 50. I just switched to a high deductible this year and an HSA, so I plan on using up all of it over birth of child, surgery for gyno, and whatever else, I will likely reach max out of pocket so i want to make sure to make good use of it and get every possible thing out of the way this year so maybe next year I can save some of my deductible money, and roll it over to the following year.

[flatscat]

So let me get this straight - you already have gyno, you just got put on testosterone, and your doc said not to worry about increased estrogen because you will need surgery anyway??????????

Really! Really?

[steroid.com 1]

Threaten to file a malpractice law suite and see what happens than!

Criminal in my opinion...plan and simple.

Did you explain HPTA suppression and how it happens and how hCG is an LH analog?

Did you explain the mechanics of aromatization?

[HRTstudent]

If you are trying to have kids in the next year, it's generally avoided that someone starts TRT in the first place. They would try something like clomid or anastrozole instead. If that's your main reason for wanting the HCG then I would probably not jump on TRT yet, and just wait until after you conceive.

Also, like you said, you don't know if you need an AI so when you show up at a doc and say you want to be on T therapy then you go down a list of drugs commonly abused by bodybuilders you sort of paint a picture that you may be interested in more than just TRT. So, you could either find a new doc, or maybe better, stick with this doc who is working with you and take it one step at a time.

Get your T level in range, then worry about checking estradiol levels. I do not believe even the famed Dr Crisler starts people on an AI and tends to add HCG after T is ok.

[flatscat]

Hrt,

He already has gyno that needs to be removed. You must have missed that part. He should in no way be on Hrt without an ai.

[SEOINAGE]

HRT, I just got my wife pregnant last month, took about 3 months of semi trying and two months of actually trying hard. Thats why we waited on starting therapy.

And yes flat he stated that his opinion was that if you already had it or if you were going to do trt you should just get the surgery and not worry about it, he seems to think the only problem with elevated estrogen is boobs.

Gdevine I think he understand aromitization but just plain doesn't care. And he seems to think that hcg isn't necessary and since i can produce now to a degree, that it will just come back on its own, which leads me to believe he doesn't quite understand HPTA shut down. I even tried to explain I don't want pain in my testicles and shrinkage, he is more than capable to prescribe it but doesn't think he has a valid argument yet for insurance.

I honestly asked if I felt like my estrogen was high would he do blood tests, and he really just went into his spiel about what I have mentioned. Plus he admitted to not understanding proper doses because in his medical community whatever that is it isn't common he said only in say anti aging and life extension do they know more about that. I told him even that its recommended very small doses and only if you needed it, sometimes as little as half a mg a week. I even asked if he knew who John Crisler was, of course he did not, and I explained who he was and what he did.

Edit: I mean if he is willing to help women become men and men become women, you would think he would be willing to help me become a well balanced man right? and do what it takes. I almost think he will work with me if I prove I'm not just doing this out of interest or out of desire to be some world class powerlifter or whatever he is thinking. If of course testosterone makes me feel better, and I know it will take time, especially when areas of my body are run down and in pain from this building up. But I could see myself feeling awful if something like my estrogen was way high and out of wack.

[bass]

Hrt,

He already has gyno that needs to be removed. You must have missed that part. He should in no way be on Hrt without an ai.

that right Flats! even if he remove his gyno surgically he can and will get it back in no time if his E2 is not managed. many bodybuilders got their gyno removed several times due to repeated cycles! obviously this doctor is a moron!

[SEOINAGE]

that right Flats! even if he remove his gyno surgically he can and will get it back in no time if his E2 is not managed. many bodybuilders got their gyno removed several times due to repeated cycles! obviously this doctor is a moron!

Sadly he claimed that all the tissue is removed and wont come back, but I know for a fact and it is even stated on most plastic surgeons websites that some is left for cosmetic reasons.

[HRTstudent]

Ok seoinage I get more of what you're saying now. honestly it sounds like the guy is out of his league - and that's ok. he is willing to help you up until he is comfortable. there is a TON of research on TRT therapy alone. that is, without AI and without hcg. if this guy is a general practitioner/internist then the chances are he gets most of his info about these drugs (androgel and testim) from the drug reps. it's not what he treats a lot of.

so the point being, he doesn't want to go out and do things he isn't readily prepared to handle. he has a lot on his plate to put it bluntly and he's probably been sued a couple times if he's over 40.

your best bet (I think) would be to approach it like you're working TOGETHER. bring in some medical literature. anything broscience will absolutely not help. show some studies that support what you're trying to do. ask him if he is comfortable trying this out because you feel it's best for you. if he really doesn't then your only option at that point is to deal with it or find a doctor who is more "cutting edge" or up to par on current HRT methods.

that's just my 2 cents.

[SEOINAGE]

woke up with sore and puffy nipples, not as bad now, but only a couple days? and haven't felt any benefit so far of the test either. sucks. really think i have high aromitization.

[SEOINAGE]

I dunno I'm getting really anxious about it, should I call my doc and explain myself? and if he doesn't listen order something fast? I would have thought it would have taken a few weeks before it would get bad, but already it feels different? any ideas?

[bass]

I dunno I'm getting really anxious about it, should I call my doc and explain myself? and if he doesn't listen order something fast? I would have thought it would have taken a few weeks before it would get bad, but already it feels different? any ideas?

i think its in your head! it takes quite few weeks to start converting so i wouldn't worry about that at this point, however, you still need to get on AI since you are prone to gyno and sensitivity. and yes I'd go and demand that your doc do this properly.

[SEOINAGE]

So what you're saying is doctor would laugh at me if i complained today since it takes a few weeks. but why are my nipples so dang sensitive then?

[bass]

not sure about your doctor, it seems he has no clue how this stuff works anyway. it just way too soon for your 100mg shot to do anything at this point! it could be that your e2 is already high without the shot, thats why i recommended that you get on AI, i am assuming your e2 is high because you have gyno! but check it to be sure and go from there.

[SEOINAGE]

I might have to order a blood test because he doesn't think its necessary to check. how do those work, the online places that is, they charge a few and you go to a local clinic or hospital to have it drawn? you have to pay hospital their fee plus the online place or what?

[bass]

no, simply go online and buy the test you need to do and take it to your local lab, mine is LabCorp. here is a link to shop from,

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...rral&highlight=

[keep fightin]

SEOINAGE, sorry for your bumpy path to better health. My nipples felt a bit tender six weeks in on 100mg1xw plus 1mg anastrozole taken at same time, lasted a week or two then gone. just my o2 but I agree with Bass, that just seems to soon, keep digging brother! i've only used oversea HCG and it is no problem, just speaking for myself.

[HRTstudent]

Gyno can happen fast, so don't let anyone ever tell you that it takes X days until you can get gyno. I would probably contact my doc ASAP and let them know you do not want gyno and need to get prescribed something ASAP. Unfortunately with injects you cannot simply stop the elevated T such as with gels.

[SEOINAGE]

Gyno can happen fast, so don't let anyone ever tell you that it takes X days until you can get gyno. I would probably contact my doc ASAP and let them know you do not want gyno and need to get prescribed something ASAP. Unfortunately with injects you cannot simply stop the elevated T such as with gels.

Yeah I even asked him if he would prescribe ai at my appointment and he said i should just get surgery anyways so it doesn't matter. Its pretty retarded why not prevent something from getting worse. So I'm not sure what to do because for some reason that reason isn't good enough for him. If it doesn't get bad before bloods I imagine my test will be too low and he will prescribe more which will result in more e2 and more wasted test. I don't feel the nipple thing this morning really. So my wife took my prescription in to the local pharmacy and they told her they needed doctor approval or some crap. So the next day I called them to see if it was ready and they said they were still waiting on the doctor to submit proper stuff to insurance company. Didn't realize they took those steps initially.

[SEOINAGE]

Well little update, still haven't gotten my script filled, couple days till next injection. So my wife freaks out tonight saying my back is covered in zits, I look in the mirror sure enough pretty well covered entire back and on my chest. I weigh myself and I have gained roughly 10 lbs in less than a week. Retaining water like a mother. Maybe I just ate too much for lunch, I dunno sounds unlikely. Little worried, do most people break out pretty bad? Or is it another sign of estrogen issues?

[FONZY007]

Well little update, still haven't gotten my script filled, couple days till next injection. So my wife freaks out tonight saying my back is covered in zits, I look in the mirror sure enough pretty well covered entire back and on my chest. I weigh myself and I have gained roughly 10 lbs in less than a week. Retaining water like a mother. Maybe I just ate too much for lunch, I dunno sounds unlikely. Little worried, do most people break out pretty bad? Or is it another sign of estrogen issues?

Bro I broke out like no other also, get an AI or ask your doctor for one. I'm on adex 2 x per week .5 mg, but go acne so back like you stated had to jump on accutane after everything else failed.. How much test you are using? My doctor didn't want to give me an AI also, so I purchased one on my own using the boards source

[Bigfoot66]

I had the gyno, had the surgery...all before even realizing it was E2.

I am on 200 mg a week. Divide into 2 dosages. Before AI I retained water and had love handles. Now all gone. Yes I do work out but I'm pretty sure continuous dosage of AI caused the fat to fall off.

Had thx acne as well. All gone.


QUOTE=SEOINAGE;5882717]Well little update, still haven't gotten my script filled, couple days till next injection. So my wife freaks out tonight saying my back is covered in zits, I look in the mirror sure enough pretty well covered entire back and on my chest. I weigh myself and I have gained roughly 10 lbs in less than a week. Retaining water like a mother. Maybe I just ate too much for lunch, I dunno sounds unlikely. Little worried, do most people break out pretty bad? Or is it another sign of estrogen issues?[/QUOTE]

[SEOINAGE]

Ok thanks guys. 100 mg each week until blood work is done in a few more weeks. And I have always worked out too but that hasn't stopped me from having a spare tire lol, even with a year and a half of eating healthy with spurts of low calories and losing 35 lbs, i feel fatter than 35 lbs heavier. Going to be making calls tomorrow about my script being filled if I have a spare moment at work, will try calling the doc and see if he will say anything different. I just don't see the bad thing in an ai, his only thing for not wanting me to have it is saying i need estrogen for healthy bones, but its not like I want to prevent all estrogen from being in my system.

[SEOINAGE]

Looks like I might not be getting my test covered by insurance. Requires a score under 300, but with the new ranges i don't see how that could still be the rule. So not sure whats going to happen, I really should have just gotten bloods done on an evening or something.

[steroid.com 1]

Wow, you got a lot of stuff going on Seo.

First, retaining some water early on in a TRT protocol is not uncommon so don't worry so much about that.

E2 can be a concern but till you get an accurate E2 sensitive panel done everything at this point is pure speculation. There's a good chance it's high but let's get the BW done ASAP!

Get the panel done and let's go from there.

Acne...welcome to the world of TRT my friend...we're all in the same boat more or less.

You will lose that "spare tire" in time, trust me; you just got started.

There are online pharmacies where you can purchase Anastrozole from over seas pharmaceutical manufacturers. I believe this is a better option than Research Sites but that's just my opinion.

[SEOINAGE]

Do you suggest I just get the e2 panel done on my own? I will be near the lab a week from friday. And should I start an ai before bw or after? So I had to call the doc about the prescription thing anyways and about my gyno surgery etc, cause they were going to help me get going on that. Anyways I mentioned the acne and the water retention and weight gain. I just got a call back from them after they talked to my doctor and they said yes acne is common, no the weight gain water retention is not common and that I should go see my PCP!!!! Anyways I know that isn't going to do me any good. So lets say the endo breaks me by ignoring other aspects so he just tells me to see my pcp regarding it. Anyways the one sponsor is having a sale, but i have yet to look into online pharmacies. Pills are easier than liquid imo. If its going to cost me a fortune to see doctors and insurance isn't going to cover treatment and I don't even get the right blood tests done, why even bother with them in the first place and not just do it myself? I really would like someone that is well educated on the matter to treat me, I shouldn't have bought my wife her new car then I could have the cash to make sure things are done right.

[SEOINAGE]

Ok so I assume taking an AI would increase my test levels more than without, would i be better off waiting a couple weeks for bloods so it doesn't inflate my numbers? Or if I feel like I should get started do it right away? Nipples have been bothering me tonight, and I was thinking I was doing fine today.

[SEOINAGE]

Script picked up today with cash, not that bad really, but it isn't 5 dollars. And I am preapproved for gynocomastia removal with a 2k co pay. I don't know if that counts towards my max out of pocket or what. My deductible is 4k which I will hit for sure, covered at 80/20 after that, but i just dont get the 2k co pay how it fits in. Likely will hit max out of pocket this year anyways. Also kind of gave my last effort at getting an AI from this doc, will see how that goes.

Edit: guess i thought i was getting a 10 cc vial for that price, but no its just 2 1 cc vials.

[FONZY007]

My doc put down for a 3 months supply which they gave me the 10ml vial, also I get the syringes also for 3 months..5 bucks for 10ml vial 3 bucks for syringes.. I have an 80/20 insurance also, but I have no co-pay cuz im double covered with the wife

Hope everything ends well friend and you start feeling better!!

[SEOINAGE]

Yeah I thought thats what my script said was 10 ml vial, so when my wife came back with the other i was confused. I mean I ended up with 14 or so syringes so why would they give me 2 1 ml vials?

[FONZY007]

Yeah I thought thats what my script said was 10 ml vial, so when my wife came back with the other i was confused. I mean I ended up with 14 or so syringes so why would they give me 2 1 ml vials?

Sounds like someone messed up cuz that's probably only good for a month at most

[SEOINAGE]

Yeah and no refills, and why would I end up with so many syringes? The pharmacy here is really fail. It would suck if htey charged me for 10 ml and gave me 2 ml. or if they are just that expensive. I guess i will call and see what was written out to me.

[FONZY007]

Yeah and no refills, and why would I end up with so many syringes? The pharmacy here is really fail. It would suck if htey charged me for 10 ml and gave me 2 ml. or if they are just that expensive. I guess i will call and see what was written out to me.

The 10 ml vial only cost 115 bucks retail and I pay my co pay of only 5 bucks .. Also my pharmacy give me a 10 ml vial per month lol I have 3 - 10 ml vials put away lol

[SEOINAGE]

well if retail on 2 ml is 60 bucks, then I am getting ripped off if i can get 10 ml for 115. im pissed, if 2 ml is my script I need to have doc change it so i dont spend a fortune.

[FONZY007]

well if retail on 2 ml is 60 bucks, then I am getting ripped off if i can get 10 ml for 115. im pissed, if 2 ml is my script I need to have doc change it so i dont spend a fortune.

Call the doctor bro, where u live?

[SEOINAGE]

well at least looking at online pharmacy prices, 60 bucks is almost right for 2 1 ml vials. But why waste that money, when i can get 10 ml so much cheaper, when i need more i will see if doctor will prescribe me the larger bottle cause this is a rip off. 300 bucks for 10 ml going that route vs 100 bucks lol.