Prolactin and Gyno

[Oubowtie06]

Ok i have been doing my reading on both of these and what substances are used to treat them. It seems if you shows signs of gyno which might include itchy nipples or soreness and possibly pain. in order to stop these or to get them under control you use. an AI such as arimidex or letrozole which im assuming is based on personal preference or you compound.With Prolactin which is breast enlargement or signs of breast enlargemn with bmilk secretion. Im still very confused on these two issues but to my reading prolactin can be controlled by products such as pramipexole or cabergoline. Now i have read these symptoms seem to mostly show up with tren which also seem to be dose dependant. I was reading the all you need to know about Tren sticky and Atomoni stated for a first cycle of tren basically keep it at 300 or lower and run test 200 to 150 almost a 2: 1 ratio with Tren being the 2 and test the 1. So if i were to run a cycle of test and tren with tren at 300 a week and test at 150 would these gyno and prolac problems be likely to show up? obviously everyone is different theres no guarantee but to the majority vote would you be worried about it. also if you did see signs of these problems would you inject the pram and arim in the same dose or split them up? I am just asking so i can expand my brain if a tongue lashing is in my future so be it but i can take it lol

[The Titan99]

You don't inject Prami or adex.

[ScotchGuard02]

One of the main reasons for running just Test for a while is to see how your body reacts to it. Are you gyno sensitive to Test, you're gonna find out. When you start stacking compounds like Tren/Test you have to know what you body will do with Test only so you can trouble gyno with the stack. Tren will increase your prolactin level so you need to get caber or prami on hand. If you're getting gyno on a Tren/Test stack you really need to get blood work done to pin point the problem. Tren's hard on the endo so read a lot before you start on Tren.

[Oubowtie06]

I can't get access to pill form adex or pram. The only.place I have seen to get it is AR our sponsor it shows it as liquid.

[kelkel]

It is dosed orally.

[Fllifter]

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ctin-Tren-Deca


This is a very interesting read on prolactin.

[Oubowtie06]

After finding a thread on signs of gyno correct me if im wron. It is mostly nipple related itchyness, bumps, and sensitivity?
For the Prolactin thats just where your breast begin to show signs of lactation right?

[The Titan99]

I can't get access to pill form adex or pram. The only.place I have seen to get it is AR our sponsor it shows it as liquid.

I just want to make one thing very clear. DO NOT INJECT ANY OF THIS!! Even if it's in liquid form you DO NOT inject it. You take it orally with a syringe. See how many mg per ml it is then draw the desired amount into the syringe and squirt it into your mouth.

[Oubowtie06]

I just want to make one thing very clear. DO NOT INJECT ANY OF THIS!! Even if it's in liquid form you DO NOT inject it. You take it orally with a syringe. See how many mg per ml it is then draw the desired amount into the syringe and squirt it into your mouth.

I got ya man. I understand adex is 1mg per cc which would be taken orally!

[MickeyKnox]

Ok i have been doing my reading on both of these and what substances are used to treat them. It seems if you shows signs of gyno which might include itchy nipples or soreness and possibly pain. in order to stop these or to get them under control you use. an AI such as arimidex or letrozole which im assuming is based on personal preference or you compound.With Prolactin which is breast enlargement or signs of breast enlargemn with bmilk secretion. Im still very confused on these two issues but to my reading prolactin can be controlled by products such as pramipexole or cabergoline. Now i have read these symptoms seem to mostly show up with tren which also seem to be dose dependant. I was reading the all you need to know about Tren sticky and Atomoni stated for a first cycle of tren basically keep it at 300 or lower and run test 200 to 150 almost a 2: 1 ratio with Tren being the 2 and test the 1. So if i were to run a cycle of test and tren with tren at 300 a week and test at 150 would these gyno and prolac problems be likely to show up? obviously everyone is different theres no guarantee but to the majority vote would you be worried about it. You will reduce the chances even further if you include an AI like Adex or Aromasin Or Letro on cycle. also if you did see signs of these problems would you inject the pram and arim in the same dose or split them up? You do NOT inject Prami or Adex as was already pointed out. I am just asking so i can expand my brain if a tongue lashing is in my future so be it but i can take it lol

Some food for thought...


Note: Sadly, I don't recall the author of this Article. Please inform me if you know so that i can may update this article and give credit to the proper person. I believe the original author is from this site. Thanks.


Original author is Nandi (Karl Hoffman) RIP.

PROGESTERONE AND PROLACTIN INDUCED GYNECOMASTIA

Estrogen is the regulator of prolactin. If you want more information, research the 'Long Feedback Mechanism'.

Only compounds that aromotase and interact with the ER can increase PRL.

AI's will help control PRL.

PROGESTERONE AND PROLACTIN INDUCED GYNECOMASTIA

Before delving into this subject, I’d like to say first and foremost, that in users of anabolic /androgenic steroids (AAS) the first step in combating the development of gynecomastia, or male breast enlargement, is to eliminate the causative agent: the anabolic steroid .

Drug-induced gynecomastia almost invariably resolves on its own when a person quits taking the drugs responsible for it, if caught before permanent fibrosis develops. Unfortunately, most AAS users don’t want to employ this simple approach, for obvious reasons, so the foregoing will all be under the assumption that a person wants to prevent or treat gyno and still continue steroid use.

In the belief that certain anabolic steroids increase prolactin levels as well as act as agonists at the progesterone receptor, some have advocated the use of antiprolactin agents, like bromocriptine, or progesterone receptor blockers like RU-486 to treat AAS related gynecomastia, in lieu of more traditional drugs like tamoxifen .

In truth, the etiology of gynecomastia is unknown and a number of agents including estrogens, progestins, GH, IGF -1, and prolactin may be involved. However, most authorities believe that a decreased (T+DHT)/E ratio is central to the development of gyno, and that blocking the effects of estrogen, or increasing T + DHT levels, is central to ameliorating the problem.

Regarding prolactin, androgens decrease prolactin levels whereas estrogens increase prolactin. Non-aromatizing androgens have never been shown to elevate prolactin levels in humans, but testosterone has, due to its aromatization to estradiol (19). Prolactin secreting tumors, or prolactinomas, is often associated with gyno. But in these cases the prolactin is believed to induce gyno by suppressing testosterone production: “Prolactinomas that are sufficiently large to cause gynecomastia do so as a result of impairment of gonadotropin secretion and secondary hypogonadism”. (20). However, this is a moot issue in AAS users whose gonadotropin secretion is already blunted.

According to research cited in (20), prolactin may have a direct stimulatory effect on mammary tissue development, but only in the presence of high estrogen levels:


The presence of mild hyperprolactinaemia is therefore not uncommon in patients with estrogen excess. Significant primary hyperprolactinaemia, on the other hand, may directly stimulate epithelial cell proliferation in an estrogen-primed breast, causing epithelial cell proliferation and gynaecomastia.

So rather than focusing solely on lowering prolactin levels which may be elevated in users of aromatizing androgens, attacking estrogen should be the first line of action.

GH and IGF-1 are considered critical to the proliferation of mammary tissue. An excellent review of the role played by these hormones, as well as a general overview of gynecomastia can be found here:

Since elevated GH and IGF-1 are considered important to the anabolic effect of AAS, it would be impractical and counterproductive to attempt to prevent gynecomastia by blocking GH/IGF.

Progesterone acts in concert with estrogen to promote breast development, and at least part of any role played by synthetic progestin may be to stimulate IGF-1 production in the breast. But again, blocking the action of progesterone or synthetic progestin is not practical. Specific progesterone receptor antagonists like RU-486 block not only the progesterone receptor, but the androgen receptor as well, and have actually been associated with the development of gynecomastia (21). In any case, progesterone is thought to act on the breast to enhance the effects of estrogen (22) so once again, attacking estrogen is the easiest and most logical approach.

DHT gel (Andractim) or a generic knockoff might help as well. DHT is thought to act as an aromatase inhibitor (23) and perhaps compete directly with estrogen for binding at the estrogen receptor (24). DHT has been used in several case reports and controlled trials to successfully treat gynecomastia. So perhaps a viable strategy would be to combine DHT gel with tamoxifen. I would recommend tamoxifen rather than an aromatase inhibitor due to the simple fact that tamoxifen has been widely used in numerous controlled studies to successfully treat gynecomastia, whereas the evidence to support the efficacy of aromatase inhibitors is scanty at best.

[Far from massive]

The important things to understand about prolactin related problems are that,

1 While prolactin sides are usually the result of taking a 19 nor compound IE Tren or Deca, this is only true when estrogen levels are not kept within proper range.

2 As long as estrogen levels are kept within normal ranges problems from prolactin rarely are an issue.

3 Testosterone should always be taken as a base cycle when running any other AAS compound, particularly anything like Tren or Deca as these compounds will totally shut down the bodies own production of testosterone which is needed for normal body functioning.

4 When you take Testosterone, through a process called aromatization, the levels of estrogen can rise above normal levels. Not only can this cause gyno symptoms on its own, but if you are taking a Tren or Deca then you also run a serious risk of prolactin sides. By controlling aromatization from the test with an AI prolactin problems are rarely seen.

This is why you need to run test only cycles, preferably with labwork before starting, during and after the cycle. The reason for gettin bloodwork during a cycle is to determine how much AI's are needed to control estrogen effectively without crushing it. Then with precycle bloodwork your baseline values can be established and with your postcycle bloodwork after your cycle you can gauge your recovery to make sure your body has fully recovered. Once you become familiar with controlling E2 during your test cycles you will be in a much better position to add a compound like Tren or Deca and be much less likely to run into any suprizes.


Damn I go to all the trouble of writing this reply only to see after posting that Mickey has covered 95% of it more effectively....Good Job Mickey!!!!

[Sworder]

Trenbolone and nandrolone do not increase prolactin.

The article even states and I will paraphrase for ease of comprehension "trenbolone has never been shown to increase prolactin, testosterone has"

[Sgt. Hartman]

Mickey - it's Nandi (Karl Hoffman) RIP.

He was brilliant and you'll find lots of great info and articles by him from a quick google search.

[Oubowtie06]

so basically dumb this down for me even with just a test cycle run AI for safety?

[Far from massive]

so basically dumb this down for me even with just a test cycle run AI for safety?

Yes that is correct, actually not only safety but by keeping E2 in the proper range gains will be optimized, bloating and bitchiness minimized etc.

[Oubowtie06]

and to really find the sweet spot ro E2 is for blood work pre cycle.....during cycle.....and post cycle correct?

[Far from massive]

Trenbolone and nandrolone do not increase prolactin.

The article even states and I will paraphrase for ease of comprehension "trenbolone has never been shown to increase prolactin, testosterone has"

I don't know if this is aimed at me but if so,

I do not completly agree with that, its my belief that Tren can cause an increase in prolactin sides but only when estrogen is not properly controlled.

However I have been wrong before ;-)

I do see though were my 1 statement (They are usually the result of taking a 19 nor compound IE Tren or Deca ) is kind of easy to misread, although I though points 2-4 covered it well but maybe not, so let me clear it up (While prolactin sides are usually the result of taking a 19 nor compound IE Tren or Deca, this is only true when estrogen levels are not kept within proper range)

[Lunk1]

Sworder..feel free to correct me but the relationship between a 19nor and prolactin comes from the shutdown of Test caused by using them, which of course is one reason we use Test with a 19nor or in some cases high doses of HCG

Obviously lack of Test would result in high E2 levels causing prolactin or gyno issues...sound about right???

[Far from massive]

and to really find the sweet spot ro E2 is for blood work pre cycle.....during cycle.....and post cycle correct?

Not exactly the only test needed to find the "sweet spot" during a test cycle is bloodwork taken during a cycle. This is so that you can see that while X amount of test is being taken with X amount of a specific AI your estrogen is kept within range.

However if you look at the numerous threads by some of our knowlegable members you can find doses of AI's that generally work very well in keeping estrogen in range without crushing it. But since different people react differently in an ideal world bloodwork is always best.


To me the most important bloodwork one can ever get is the bloodwork taken before AAS is ever taken, as you can never go back once you miss the chance. Then with your precycle bloodwork in hand not only do you know if you have any medical issues that would exclude you from taking AAS but you will be able to gauge recovery after every cycle to ensure (or at least minimize the chance) that you are not damaging your HPTA.

[MickeyKnox]

Mickey - it's Nandi (Karl Hoffman) RIP.

He was brilliant and you'll find lots of great info and articles by him from a quick google search.

Thank you very much Sarge. Ive edited my thread to reflect his work.

[Oubowtie06]

so back to signs of gyno....itchy nipples, sensitivity, lumps right under the nipple or even bumps around the nipple, sagging maybe also puffyness....correct?

[MickeyKnox]

so back to signs of gyno....itchy nipples, sensitivity, lumps right under the nipple or even bumps around the nipple, sagging maybe also puffyness....correct?

Sounds like gyno to me - certainly the classic symptoms.

[Oubowtie06]

no no i dont have it i am not even on a cycle. Im just learning what to look for my dude

[MickeyKnox]

Ahhh ok.

[Sworder]

I don't know if this is aimed at me but if so,

I do not completly agree with that, its my belief that Tren can cause an increase in prolactin sides but only when estrogen is not properly controlled.

It was not specifically aimed at you. What are you basing your belief on?

Sworder..feel free to correct me but the relationship between a 19nor and prolactin comes from the shutdown of Test caused by using them, which of course is one reason we use Test with a 19nor or in some cases high doses of HCG

Obviously lack of Test would result in high E2 levels causing prolactin or gyno issues...sound about right???

19nor and prolactin do not have a relationship. At all.

Lack of testosterone wouldn't result in high e2. The only and I say only reason I would use hCG with tren and deca is for some estrogen. Not directly testosterone, that androgen isn't needed but the same can't be said about estrogen. You need estrogen!