Moving from Clomid to HCG mono? Will HCG mono shutdown pituitary?

[louie2400]

Anyway I have been on clomid 25mg EOD for about 3 weeks and have felt improvements in sleep, energy, and mental clarity. These have been mild improvements, I am guessing because clomid can only raise Testosterone levels so much, and I was really low on my last test, less than 100. I was hoping to get a little more of an improvement of symptoms with clomid and have also felt "moodier" from time to time and no libido increase. So I am debating on trying HCG after I get my levels checked again next week to see what affect the clomid had on them. I also need to discuss this option with my Dr.

Brief history: Been secondary hypogonad (low Testosterone) for over a year (and probably years before) and just gave in to start treatment. I'm 29, want to keep fertility in place, eat healthy, I was exercising and lifting often, but not as much the past couple months due to energy issues.

So would it hurt to give HCG monotherapy a try for a month or two? I wanted to see if it would improve my symptoms more than clomid has. I figure since it has the ability to raise my T levels way higher than clomid alone, it might help more? Am I at risk for shutting down my pituitary by using HCG (introducing analogue LH). Will my body get "used" to this extra "LH" and stop making the little it was making before? I was thinking I could try HCG and if it wasn't any better than clomid I could always stop HCG and go back to clomid? Is my logic and reasoning right, what do you think? Appreciate the input!

[kelkel]

You won't become desensitized with normal amounts used. The hcg itself won't really shut you down, it's the HPTA and it's negative feedback loop that will do that. Meaning HCG increases test production which then "feed-back" to the hypothalamus/pituitary inhibiting function.

Curious if all of your options other than above have been exhausted and if so, what is your doc's opinion on TRT?

kel

[louie2400]

Yeah that is what I was thinking. So you are saying that my body will sense this extra "LH" via HCG and make more testosterone from it and thus send a negative feedback to my HPTA to make less LH, thus after a while relying solely on the HCG as an "LH" supply. I wonder if my LH will restore to previous levels once I discontinue HCG, if I try.

Yeah I have tried everything I could naturally to get my T back to normal, diet, exercise related, supplements, you name it (without any anabolics or other means). My doctor would be all game for TRT, but the fact that I want to maintain fertility is holding me back. We talked last visit about possibly HCG mono, and I asked if I did the TRT-HCG-possible AI combo if I would be able to maintain fertility and he said maybe. We would have to check sperm count before starting and then monitor once I started the treatment and if sperm count/etc. declined significantly then I would have to stop if I wanted to remain fertile.

[kelkel]

Many TRT'ers and pro-BB'ers are able to have kids. You can also put some of your boys in a "bank" as well. It doesn't take all your boys to get the girl pregnant. Just one good swimmer!

kel

[louie2400]

Yeah that is a good point. I am not all about banking sperm, I'm sure cost is pretty ridiculous and dealing with the artificial insemination would be pretty weird too. I'm single now, but want to have the ability to hopefully have some little ones someday. Maybe I should talk to my doctor more about TRT and HCG combo. What are your thoughts on HCG mono?

[steroid.com 1]

A 29 yo with serum levels of less than 100?

You know that is not normal and generally points to a pathology or something else like past aas abuse, head injuries or something way more serious.

What was your diagnosis for being so low?

[louie2400]

No direct diagnosis. As far as head injury I got into a car accident and rolled my car on its side when I was in high school, no seat belt, smashed my face on the steaing wheel, but no broken bones. I didn't go to the hospital, but most likely had a concussion. Also got into a fight in early high school where I probably had a mild concussion, other than that no head injuries. Never used any performance or AAS. I smoked weed growing up, but always stayed in shape- lifting and working out, and wasn't your typical stoner. I haven't touched the stuff in like 5 years. Right now, I'm waiting to see if my insurance will cover a pituitary MRI, but not holding a lot of weight on that ruling anything in or out because my dad had one about a year ago when he was diagnosed secondary hypo and it showed nothing abnormal. As far as I know now, my secondary has a BIG genetic component.

I posted this in another thread, but here are my past labs if you are curious:
Nov. 11 2011:
TSH: 2.136 (0.358 - 3.740)
Testosterone: 129.0 (241 – 827)

Nov. 22 2011:
Testosterone: 153.0 (241 – 827)

Dec. 2011:

Test: 203 (280-800);
T Free 5.8 (9.3-26.5);
TSH 2.136 (.358-3.740);
Prolactin 4.8 (2.1-17.7);
FSH 3.0 (1.4-18.1);
LH 1.4 (1.5-9.3);
IGF-1 320 (63-373);
Morning blood cortisol 15.7 (4.3-22.4);
T4 Free .87 (.76-1.46)

March 2012:

Test 360 (280-800);
T Free 12.0 (9.3-26.5);
LH 4.4 (1.5-9.3);
FSH 3.7 (1.4-18.1);
Folic Acid,
RBC 675 (280-791;
Vit. B12 749 (211-911);
Trioiodothyronine total, TT3 .97 (.70-1.90);
Iron 92 (65-175);
% iron saturation 24 (15-50);
Ferritin 168 (26-388);
Celiac Test: IgA 5 (<20) IgG 4 (<20) IGA 1 (<4) IgA 123 (70-400);
Vit. D 44.3 (32-100);
Estradial 17b 15.8;
Thyroglobulin antibodies <20 (<40);
TPO antibodies 11 (<35)

May 24 2012:

TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL: 293 (250 – 1100)
TESTOSTERONE, FREE: 60.8 (35.0 - 155.0)

August 15, 2012(New Urologist):

FSH 4.1 (1.4 - 18.1)
LH 2.7 (1.5 - 9.3)
TSH 3.12 (0.36 - 4.20)
Prolactin 9.0 (0.2 - 13.0)
Estradiol 32 (11 – 40)
Testosterone 528 (300 – 1080)
SHBG 20 (11 – 80)
Testosterone, Bioavail 348 (131 – 682)
Testosterone, Free 130.0 (47 – 244)
Testosterone, % Free 2.5 (1.6 - 2.9)
Hematocrit 44 (40 – 52)

Nov. 12 2012:

Testosterone 82 (300 – 1080) *82 not a typo, VERY low
SHBG 22 (11 – 80)
Testosterone, Bioavail 47 (131 – 682)
Testosterone, Free 17.0 (47 – 244)
Testosterone, % Free 2.1 (1.6 - 2.9)
Estradiol 21(11 – 40)
TSH 1.97 (0.47 - 5.00)
FREE T4 1.2 (0.8 - 1.8)
TOTAL T3 0.92 (0.80 - 2.00)
25 OH Vitamin D, Total D2+D3 35 (23 – 65)
GLUCOSE 93 (70 – 99)mg/dL
BUN 15 (8 – 23)mg/dL
CREATININE 0.87 (0.50 - 1.20) mg/dL
EGFR (MDRD CALC)103>60

[louie2400]

So after a month of clomid of 25mg EOD here are my labs:

Testosterone,Adult Male 568 (300 - 1080) ng/dL

SHBG 25 (11 - 80) nmol/L

Testosterone, Bioavail 345 (131 - 682) ng/dL

Testosterone, Free 129.0 (47 - 244) pg/mL

Testosterone, % Free 2.3 (1.6 - 2.9) %

Estradiol- 34 (11-40)

What do you guys think of these labs? Is E2 too high?
I am not sure if I am going to switch to HCG right away like I planned, but my doctor is cool with it if I want to. I think I want to give clomid more time to really gauge how it makes me feel. For the most part I feel a decent amount better, but not great. I am sleeping better, have more energy, and have a little less brain fog, but still no libido and I feel slightly depressed at times. Something I have noticed since I have been on it which is kind of strange, I normally always look people in the eye when talking to them or listening, but since I have been on it I noticed that I have been avoiding eye contact. I think this stems from the slightly depressed feeling it gives me at times. My sleep has definitely improved, but I have still had a handful of days in the past month where I woke up feeling pretty crappy, but not as crappy as I felt prior to starting. I am just wondering if I should move to HCG sooner than later?

[louie2400]

Update: So I decided yesterday that I would discontinue my clomid trial. I just can't take the side effect of the depressed/muted feeling I get with it. The depressed feeling actually gets pretty bad sometimes. I have been prescribed HCG @ 1500iu 3 times a week, but am having trouble finding a pharmacy that has it (thats another thread tho). I have been also floating the idea around of just skipping the HCG mono-therapy route and going straight to Test shots+HCG+AI (if needed). Man I just don't know what to do next. I definitely want to keep my fertility at all costs, but want to feel better at the same. I don't think I will ever have kids the way I'm going now hahaa, I've been single for a while now and no libido. I almost want to talk to my Dr what my fertility would be like if on T shots + HCG, but then on the other hand want to atleast give HCG mono a try like I did clomid.