Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
I am on high dose TRT and need Deca I did not know how benificial 100 mgs a week was util I stopped !
When I go in for BW will Nor 19 compounds show up as a higher Test level and I was reading about Masterone and it sounds incrediable and I got the impression it was also a nor19 compound or near nor 19 ?
Would someone please share some knowledge of their experience with these 2 compounds ?
aka "JOB"
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
Thanks !
~Retired~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~
High dose of trt isn't trt its a cycle........
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
No desire to be spoon feed as I have already goggled this question and besides the answer that Deca does not convert well to estrogen ? I have not found a direct answer to "Does DECA Increase Test levels in BW the explinations are a little confussing ?Originally Posted by Lunk1
I know 30 years ago which caused my low T issues we took DECA year round and cruized on 200 mgs a week and on a 90 day cycle 600 , no Internet and never did BW . Now I am trying to get balanced and feel good then later worry about a blast ?
Thank you for that refrence Lunk 1 ! I already use it for compound info and it had about 450 possible articles to read about Durabolin and Nandrolin - DECA ?
Does anyone have a direct answer to the question "Does DECA raise Test level in BW ? "
Last edited by BuzzardMarinePumper; 06-21-2013 at 10:11 AM.
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
I am on 60 mg of oxycodone a day, That destroys Test levels in a man and my Dr. can't even read BW ! My Test level will not rise above 398 on his script of 200 mg EOW and no HCG . I am self medicating waiting on lowtestosoerone.com to arrive in TN or Atl. if not here by August I am flying to TX.
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
I have been under the impression from the reads on this forum that all men are different ? When I started TRT I was 78. Why would a man on a large script of an opiate not have a TRT proticall of possibly 250 to 300 mg of Cypionate a week ?
~Retired~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~
That's a cycle not trt
HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
Deca is deca and test is test. One does not read as the other in BW. Your answer is no, deca will not increase Test levels when testing TT & FT.
-*- NO SOURCE CHECKS -*-
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
Thank You ! For a direct answer ?
Kel I have tried to stick as close to suggestion that you have shared as possible in the past . I highly respect Marcus also .
So in my situtitation where my Dr. can't read BW and will not script HCG, Scripted Generic Adeix at 1 mg per day for 6 mths and scripts 200 Mg of Cypionate EOW . I am seeking 2 points of view?
All men are different I do not know how big of an impact 60 mg of oxycodone a day has on Test levels but at 200 mg and no HCG my test peeked at 468 and then 2 mths later was 398 with .25 or 50 mg every 3.5 days . Since there is no cookie cutter protical for TRT; Is it not conceivable that a man on the max ethicial dose of opiates and tops the Test BW level at 398 and 70 E2 has a Dr that says GTG would possible need a TRT protical of say 250 mgs a week to reach optiminal Test levels ?
= AT MY TRT DOSE 100 mg a week puts me at less than 400 Test level ?
I know only a TRT SPECIALIST would be able to solve this unique scenario. As I stated lowtestosterone.com will be in ATl or Tn. in target date of 2 mths. I have DVT (Blood Clots) and desire to avoid flying if possible due to pressure change piolts are grounded for this condition and the likelyhood of clots moving to lung or brain. I have had 3 in my lungs in the past 7 years. Sooooo . Before ppl ask that is why I have held off on a flight.
Last edited by BuzzardMarinePumper; 06-21-2013 at 11:50 AM.
Banned
If like me you are or have been on a prolonged period of medically prescribed opoids due to say chronic pain (this does cover misuse if that's relevant). Then read this.
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&sou...A4uS5wskrHwjFg
Should come out pdf
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
So please correct me if I misunderstood the study ?
This study would support my theory if while on TRT and still on prescription opiates not pill mill amount . Mine is 60 mg a day. Opiate users will require more Testosterone due to continued use and still lowering T level while on TRT so more Test needed to reach optiminal level ?
Junior Member
No bro. The only way Pain medication would have an effect on you, would be on your natural T levels. Being that you supplement with Test on TRT, your natural T is shut down. Hence pain meds will not lower your Test levels when on TRT. If you are on 100mg/wk and getting bw of 396, then 200mg/wk would be were you want to be.
Im not sure what that other poster was trying to say about you taking pain medication with that article, but 60mg/day if you are in chronic pain, is an acceptable amt of medication. For those out there that want to preach but are not in pain, they have no clue.
Junior Member
I did go back an skim that article. I actually found that really helpful. Sheds new light on my situation.
HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
If you're at almost 400 TT level 7 days after injection it's really not that low. Your peak will be app 2-3 days post injection. Hence the popularity of splitting the dose and injecting twice weekly to maintain more stable levels. And use less AI as well.
-*- NO SOURCE CHECKS -*-
Associate Member
Masteron is not a 19Nor compound. It's a DHT
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
Thank you for your support and reply BUT just because you are on TRT dose moy mean you natural Test [roduction is shut down my non therpudic level is 78 and can be raised some by HCG alone !
Last edited by BuzzardMarinePumper; 06-21-2013 at 10:46 PM.
Junior Member
If you know the answer to the question then why ask. http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...-shutdown.html
Look at the link!!!! Just out of curiosity what test is there that can distinguish between supplemental testosterone and non therapudic levels? Then again Deca rasises test, at least as far as ur labs go, lol....
Last edited by Sledgehammer1; 06-22-2013 at 01:18 AM.
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
Sorry man no offence but i am going with what Kel says on the difference between Test and Deca ! He is very knowledgable and been around for years on these subjects . And I am not shut down according to lowtestosterone .com because even if minor at 78 my testies are still producing Test just not at a normaal level ! i DO ASK QUESTIONS BUT i AM NOT AS DUMB AS i USED TO BE PROPER TRT WILL HAVE HCG IN IT IF YOU ARE STILL PRODUCING SOME NATURAL Test or there would be no need for the HCG ? YOu need to study a little more before stating your opiniom as fact !
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
From what you say here I am not shut down because my Test level while on opiates is 78Not shut down and there fore a need for HCG to boost my natural Test production level = not shut down and won't be if treated properly for TRT
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
There are different reasos for TRT all the way from no T to low T If you are lowT you are still producing some Testosterone , just not the normal amount and if you start getting TRT and no HCG , Yes you will sooner or later be in the no T catgory
aka "JOB"
If you introduce exogenous testosterone to the body ie: injecting testosterone, it will shut down your natural testosterone production not add to your low number.
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
I am awhere of this in part and only discussing not intentd to argue ! But I thought that was and have been told from lowtestosterone.com that the reason and only reason for HCG in a TRT protical is your testies are still producing any amount of natural Test and this is the reason for adding HCG to a TRT proticall is if Testies are total shut down then no HCG is needed in the TRT protical ! This is from the higher up at lowtestosterone.com and not my imigination ? Does this make sense to yall , it did to me , When considering why HCG is used and that is to prevent total natural shut down ! If you are total shut down then HCG has no benifit ? The HCG will keep the boys working even while injecting Cypionate !
Thoughts ?
Last edited by BuzzardMarinePumper; 06-22-2013 at 08:11 AM.
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
Besides I am going big on Deca and inject enough Cypionate to prevent Deca Dick possibly some Masterone to boot !
Do to my joint pain I require 100 mg to 150 mg weekly of Deca any way or my body tlls me about the need in a big way ~ !
Last edited by BuzzardMarinePumper; 06-22-2013 at 08:19 AM.
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
The way lowtestosterone.com treats steroid abusers or ppl self medicating is to stop all ar's and for 4 weeks you are on a TRT dose of HCG if you have a Test level of 0 at the end of 4 weeks you are Naturally at shut down and no HCG will be in your TRT protical ! But if you have even a low Test reading your testies are still producing natural Test and HCG will be in your TRT protical !
If You are at natural total T shut down HCG would not be of any benifit to your TRT protical ?
DOES THIS SOUND LIKE THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING IN YOUR OPINION ?
Last edited by BuzzardMarinePumper; 06-22-2013 at 08:35 AM.
aka "JOB"
I think you might be confusing the purpose of the HCG administration. HCG can be used to increase test levels in some patience with low T numbers (used separate from Testosterone treatment).
If someone requires testosterone treatment then HCG is often administered to avoid testicular atrophy and to keep the testes in working condition if you will but HPTA shut down still occurs with the adding of testosterone.
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
I am sure I need more research ? As I thought Test is produced from the Testies and they administer HCG to keep them Producing even when Test is injected ? But if they really shut down no HCG is needed because HCG alone is not going to crank them back up once you have total shut down ?
So more research I will do
Last edited by BuzzardMarinePumper; 06-22-2013 at 09:32 AM.
aka "JOB"
To put it in simple terms. HCG keeps them in working "condition".I am sure I need more research ? As I thought Test is produced from the Testies and they administer HCG to keep them Producing even when Test is injected ? But if they really shut down no HCG is needed because HCG alone is not going to crank them back up once you have total shut doen ?
So more research I will do
Attached is a good thread with a great post from a (former member) with much knowledge.
http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...while-trt.html
Last edited by Lunk1; 06-22-2013 at 09:35 AM.
Junior Member
Im done with this post. Next time you correct someone, you need to make sure you know what you are talking about. You come across as ignorant. It was a joke about Deca raising test levels, that was based on your original question. I use Deca as part of my TRT and have been for 6 yrs. People like you are why I don't want to respond anymore to posts that are simple minded. I have been in this game for 12 yrs, making trips to Mex before there even was online sites or UG labs. I have been a moderator on a private board for last three yrs that recently shut down. So Im far from a novice when it comes to AAS. With TRT and long term health, Im still gaining knowledge. But its one of the first things you learn in using AAS, when you add exongenous testosterone, it signals your body to stop producing test. (SHUTDOWN).
Im still curious what test you can get in bloodwork that can distinguish between supplemental test and non therapeutic levels??? Please share... The body doesn't know the difference between the two, its sees it all as one testosterone level.
Good luck man, you need it!!!!!
Junior Member
Its priceless how Lunk weights in to correct you, and now you need more research only after correcting me twice. No apology necessary!!! Stick to TRT, you need a lot more time before adding/cycling AAS like Deca and Masterone. Why the mast?? Do you know that masterone is used mostly for contest prep when BF levels are low. No more than 10-12% or its pointless. Its used to help harden up the physic being a DHT derivative.
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
thanks man I read the writh up by GD ? I still do not see how it is stating anything I have not already dtated ?
If your Testes are not at total natural shut down HCG keeps them producing Test and if I didn't state it earlier I did know that HCG increases your matural Test level . still however if total natural shut down I see no benifit to HCG . also I have not heard of HCG alone bringing a man that still produces a low level of Testosterone into optiminal range ie . me natural Test level 78 I would need near castration levels of HCG or similiar products alone to even reach 400 IMO . So HCg when used with Testosterone does as I stated inthe beginning ? Keeps the Testes producing Testosterone and prevent total shut down while being supplemented by say Cypionate as oppsed to ppl on cycles that do shut down and the PCT and start production back up again .
While some do use HCG while on cyc;e many others are clueless and think HCG is only for PCT when they would be better off to bacicly stay on HCG year round ? Just IMO ?
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
STILL DON'T AGREE WITH YOU AND YOU ARE NOT GOD i AM 54 AND WAS MAKING THOSE SAME RUNS IN THE 80 THAT IS THE ROOT OF MY ISSUES NOW AT 53 ! HCG IS GIVEN DURING TRT SO THE TESTIES WILL NOT SHUT DOWN AND TO KEEP THEM PRODUCING SOME NATURAL TESTOSTERONE AND LUNK SAID THE SAME THING IN A DIFFERENT WAY. MANY OF THE PPL CYCLING TODAY DON' USE HCG WHEN CYCLING AND THINK IT IS ONLY FOR PCT WHICH IS NOT TRUE EITHER AND THEY HAVE BEEN ABUSING JUST LIKE YOU !
NO ONE HAS PROVEN TO ME THAT WHEN ON TRT YOU NATRUL tEST PRODUCTION STOPS IF HCG IS USED WITH YOUR TRT PROTICAL . i KNOW A LITTTLE AND AM LEARNING MORE BUT I DO KNOW YOU WILL NEVER BE A MOD ON THIS FORUM WITH THE AH ATTITUDE YOU HAVE
Last edited by BuzzardMarinePumper; 06-22-2013 at 12:45 PM.
Junior Member
First off you don't know shit about the board I was on. I never said I was god. I said when it comes to trt im still gaining knowledge. I responded to your original question that was asked "does deca raise test levels",? Really???Google it, takes seconds. Then wanted to know if you take opioids does that lower test. Yes they do if you are all Natural. But because you take Testosterone and are already shutdown, it doesn't lower natural test.
HCG stabilizes serum test levels, helps prevent testicular atrophy, and also helps balance the hormones while increasing the well being and libido. I NEVER disputed that. When lunk tried to put it differently to you, you said you needed to do more research. All you did to my responses was correct them or say they were wrong. Which is a dick headed move when someone is trying to offer an opionion to your post.
By the way, I speak only from experience. I have used HCG extensively post cycle following the POWER PCT program, yet still ended up on TRT. I have used HCG on TRT, and saw no increases in test levels. We are all different.
I honestly wish you luck with your future cycle you are planning and it does suck being in pain. You may be offended by what I said, but shutting someone down who was trying to help was also offensive. I have been on opioids following back surgery for long time. So once again I was speaking from experience, not reading an article. It does lower test if you are natural, not taking anything. If you take supplemental test, it doesn't. Now I do not know if it effects levels raised by HCG. Ive never looked in to that. Which was your point. I will add that it has on positive effect in that it raises growth hormone levels quite a bit. This I know.
Im going to be a bigger person and wish you Good luck man.
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
Thank you for that !
Still you said all ppl are different I am almost 54 did gallons of juice in the 80's Have leared a lot on these boards but you still have missed the point that is why HCG is introduced into TRT proticals of men who are not naturaly shut down ? It is the HCG that prevents them from being shut down and are still producing natural TESTOSTERONE FROM THE HCG INJECTIONS !
From what you say you are a total shut down as far as natural Test goes if HCG doesn't raise your Test levels while on TRT ? That is what Lunk said and the tag stated he refrenced ! Do you self medicate your TRT or are you under the care of a qualified specialist ?
ie. When on TRT and a Test , HCG , AI, protical a person with testicles that produce Test when not on TRT will have a higher Test reading in their BW due to the HCG raising their natural Test levels in addition to the Test injections . Therefore proof that your natural Test production is not shut down due to the proper does of injectable Test ! If HCG does not raise your Test level with on going life long TRT you were naturally at total shut down before you started TRT. Sorry if you don't like to hear that from a person like me that you feel you are so superior to but try coming off all AAR's and for 4 weeks do nothing but inject HCG and if your Test level is still 0 then your natural test production is at total shut down for life ! It is gone due to juice abuse and improper PCT !!
Last edited by BuzzardMarinePumper; 06-22-2013 at 02:36 PM.
Junior Member
First off man, let me say we have far too much in common to be at odds with each other. We are fellow pain suffers, take medication, are on TRT, both been south of the border back when that was our main option, and obviously are strong minded people.
I do see a Dr. for my testosterone. I get labs every 6 months. In the beginning, he had me on Nandrolone (Deca) as well. About 6 months in, I guess he was feeling pressure because the Dea was looking into the compounding pharmacy that was making it. So he was no longer had the means to prescribe it to me. So I just continued on my own with my source. It helps me too much.
Hcg keeps your body turned "on" when using TRT. The testes produce testosterone, keep your balls full, keeps sperm production going (in case want kids), and gives you a sense of well being. How significant it raises test levels I think is dependant on a case by case basis. So, yes you are producing natural testosterone. I never debated that. Why else then would I have used HCG post cycles?? To get my natural test production started again!!! My point again was based on taking pain meds and weather they lower your test. I said no, it will not lower test levels, levels that are created by taking supplimental test. That was my point!!!!! Now your point is that by taking HCG, which stimulates natural production, that pain meds CAN lower those test levels. I could agree with that, but like I said I DONT KNOW. That is getting really deep. I hope that part of the conversation is cleared up a bit.
I have never abused AAS, that's insulting to say. I don't feel superior to you, only a fool wouldnt believe that we can all learn from each other. I don't know for sure why I ended up with low T levels. I was always responsible with my PCT, but have done some long cycles. I think its more likely from the corticosteroids they pumped me full of before having back surgery. It could be the hard recovery from the surgery. Or the toll pain meds take on your system. I don't know. So I find your judgment calling abuse rather harsh, since you don't know me.
Last edited by Sledgehammer1; 06-22-2013 at 04:14 PM.
Junior Member
May be this article will help:
AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL
By John Crisler, DO
In my paper “My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men”, published in A4M’s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:
Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG—a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog—will effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones.
So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now let’s delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable
testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly “cycle” compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right time—without inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later)—approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp.
But there’s another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.
It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.
In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).
I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark.
Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They needn’t concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline.
While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do—even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more “traditional” TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.
Junior Member
This link goes to the point I was trying to make. I posted it before you went off, but I guess missed it. I will post it again in case you missed it.
Please CLICK ..http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...-shutdown.html
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
Thank you for taking time to share the detailed info and Peace tp you and yours ! I guess as I have a habit of doing a beat around the bush ! I wiil read the tag and I have goggled my questions and researched this forum ! I am yet to be convienced that when on TRT and on HCG that my body is in total shut down buy the 4 th day of 1st injection and I am of the opinion that my body is still producing Test possibly in small amount without HCG but with HCG at a level as (low high) 200 ng/nl
Again thank you and no need to disagree as yoiu stated as a gentleman !
I need Deca right now mine ran out ND D=NEED IT BAD i DID NOT KNOW HOW BAD UNTIL i EAN OUT . . . LOL ! tHANKS A BUNCH
Anabolic Member
Is it possible for you to cut back the pain killers or switch to something else? EOW injections are bad idea for TRT. You need every 5-7 days with TEST CYP or ENAN.
Knowledge Member on Prostate Cancer
He scripted generic Adex @ 1 mg daily take 50 mg every 3.5 days . I take 50 mg of Test wvwrt 3.5 days = 100 mg EOW !
I have found that Deca does lower pain threshold and prevented knee surgery
Tried all other meds Morphine, Oxycodone m and Oxycodone is all my body tolor
Thank you for you suggestion but even every 7 days would not be as balanced IMO .
Last edited by BuzzardMarinePumper; 06-23-2013 at 09:35 PM.
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