Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
alright guys i got my labs back and ill post the complete panel tomorrow when i get them emailed but i have my E2 number so i figd id post it now for yall to see.
its been 4 weeks and i have used no AI.
4 weeks ago my E2 was <3 (3-70)
today E2: 30 (3-70)
so in 4 weeks it has climbed approx 27+- points..
what should i do? i know its good to go rite now so should i wait and see what happens in another 4 weeks or should i start like .25mg twice per week (day after inject)???
thx
Banned
Wow, quick rebound! Mine took several months just to get back up 18 points.
405, can you quickly summarize your protocol again?
Obviously, your E2 is in the ideal zone, so the objective will be to sustain somewhere in this range, +/- a few points.
I'm leaning to say that you indeed get back on your AI (presuming Anastrozole?), and go with the .25mg x 2/wk, taking 24 hours after your test injection to maximize it with the peak life of your exogenous test. Run labs again in 4 weeks. If E2 has dropped, then you might be able to taper to .25mgx1/wk.
Curious if you experienced any estro rebound symptoms? Mine hit 2 weeks or so after the crash. Never thought Nolva could turn into a best friend!
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
sure thing:Originally Posted by Vettester
80mg test cyp every 3.5 days
350iU HCG day before test shot
no estro rebound symptoms that i can think of other than i thought it was elevated due to some anxiety issues and sometimes my heart feels like its beating heavily inside my chest (i can almost feel it beating) and i can hear it when im trying to fall asleep occasionally. ever get that?
HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
Agree with vette. 30 is perfect depending on how you feel. But we all know 405's E2 needs a traffic cop as it doesn't know which way to go! His body seems to want to have the E2 of when he was heavier, and not adjust to the lean mean machine he is now!
I tested my E2 3-4 months in a row after mine crashed...
kel
Banned
405 - Thanks for listing your protocol. It's obviously nothing alarming, but agree with Kel's approach that you will probably need to recheck this for several months in a row before you can know it's on a steady course. I'd say go for the .25mg x 2 of Adex route for four (4) weeks and retest then. That's just my suggestion, as others may totally disagree or agree. Utilize and weigh out all the responses, consult with a good physician, then proceed.
Kel - You're right, 405's metabolism and conversion process a somewhat meticulous compared to what you and I go through with this stuff. Kind of envy him that he got to 30 so quick!
HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
Agree. I'd have to cycle to get to 30. I'm doing 16-18 for life!
HRT Specialist ~ Knowledgeable Member
My E2 goes up fast as well.
If I was in your shoes, I would start a low dose of AI to see how it effects your levels and try to stabilize it.
At least you're getting frequent bloodwork so that's good! I usually know I'm too high when my nipples look like a little girl starting puberty!
HRT
Get frequent blood work so you can dial in your dosage and frequency.
At .25 mg twice a week of an AI my sensitive E2 assay had me at 13 pg/ml on twice weekly of 60 mg Test Cyp and 250 iu HCG Mon, Wed and Fri.
That's too low for me...
AI's are very powerful antagonists.
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
thx guys for all ur input! i appreciate it a lot
i will be injecting subq tomorrow am and will start .25mg twice per week sat am. so i plan on my protocol for the next 4 weeks looking like this:
sunday: 350iU HCG
mon nite: 80mg test cyp subq
tue nite: .25mg adex
thurs: 350iU HCG
fri am: 80mg test cyp subq
sat am: .25mg adex
i will get the rest of my blood work emailed today i hope. i got some of it already but i dont have the ranges so ill wait for the email to post..
thx again!
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
alright guys heres complete blood work. if i leave anything out yall think is relevant please tell me and i prob have it. there is a ton of stuff so im just gonna post the important stuff..
bio-available and free testosterone serum:
total: 1384 (348-1197)
%free test (dialysis) 1.8% (1.5-3.2)
free test serum: 249pg/mL (52-280)
bio-available test: 958ng/dL (128-430) (males 20-39yrs)
Lipid Panel:
cholesterol total: 167mg/dL (100-199)
triglycerides: 43mg/dL (0-149)
HDL: 55mg/dL (>39)
LDL: 103mg/dL (HIGH) (0-99)
Iron and TIBC:
iron bind. cap. (TIBC) 322ug/dL (250-450)
UIBC: 239ug/dL (150-375)
Iron serum: 83ug/dL (40-155)
Iron Saturation: 26% (15-55)
Pregnenolone MS:23ng/dL (<151)
DHT: 50ng/dL (30-85)
FreeT4: 1.32ng/dL (.82-1.77)
Free T3: 2.5pg/mL (2.0-4.4)
SHBG: 26.5nmol/L (16.5-55.9)
Folate: 16.5 (>3.0)
DHEA Sulfate: 466ug/dL (88.9-427.0)
Testosterone serum: 1258ng/dL (348-1197)
TSH: 115 (0.45-4.50)
Prolactin: 5.1ng/mL (4.0-15.2)
PSA: 0.5ng/mL (0.0-4.0)
IGF-1: 237ng/mL69-226)
Vitamin D 25- hydroxy: 69.1ng/mL (30-100)
E2 sensitive: 30 (3-70)
vit b-12: 693pg/mL (211-946)
progesterone: 0.9ng/mL (0.2-1.4)
Ferritin: 103ng/mL (30-400)
Thyroid Peroxidase (TPO) Ab: <6 (0-34)
BUN: 25mg/dL (6-20) HIGH
BUN Creatine Ratio: 22 HIGH (8-19)
Albumin serum: 4.7g/dL (3.5-5.5)
what do u guys think? there was mention made about "upstream" deficiencies/probs that may contribute to my E2 issues. thx fellas!
HRT
See my notes in bold. You need to find a thyroid specialist and get further evaluation.alright guys heres complete blood work. if i leave anything out yall think is relevant please tell me and i prob have it. there is a ton of stuff so im just gonna post the important stuff..
bio-available and free testosterone serum:
Testosterone serum: 1258ng/dL (348-1197)total: 1384 (348-1197)
%free test (dialysis) 1.8% (1.5-3.2)
free test serum: 249pg/mL (52-280)
bio-available test: 958ng/dL (128-430) (males 20-39yrs)
Some of these labs here are in the supraphysiological levels. When did you have the blood drawn in relationship to your injection? I am willing to bet the HCG is causing some good natural produciton. Bio-available is through the roof!!! You should reduce your dosages and get these back into the optimal normal ranges.
Lipid Panel:
cholesterol total: 167mg/dL (100-199)
triglycerides: 43mg/dL (0-149)
HDL: 55mg/dL (>39)
LDL: 103mg/dL (HIGH) (0-99)
LDL can sometimes increase on a TRT protocol. This isn't anything to freak out about...
Iron and TIBC:
iron bind. cap. (TIBC) 322ug/dL (250-450)
UIBC: 239ug/dL (150-375)
Iron serum: 83ug/dL (40-155)
Iron Saturation: 26% (15-55)
Pregnenolone MS:23ng/dL (<151)
Supplement 50 mg of Preg each morning.
DHT: 50ng/dL (30-85)
Nice.
TSH: 115 (0.45-4.50)
Thyroid Peroxidase (TPO) Ab: <6 (0-34)
Free T3: 2.5pg/mL (2.0-4.4)
FreeT4: 1.32ng/dL (.82-1.77)
You need further evaluation of your Thyroid! DId you Doctor say anything to you? TSH is as high as I think I've ever see one on a lab...kid you not. Consider that normal optimal range for a man in between 20 and 30 and screams that there are issues. FT4 is low but FT3 is very low meaning that you are not producing enough T4 and converting poorly to T3 which is the bioavailable form of Thyroxzine. You have presence of TPO which are antibodies that work against thyroid peroxidase, the enzyme that plays a big part in the T4-to-T3 conversion and synthesis process. You don't have any shitty symptoms at all??? You need to find a Thyroid specialist very soon as this is probably the root cause of all you issues.
SHBG: 26.5nmol/L (16.5-55.9)
Nice.
Folate: 16.5 (>3.0)
DHEA Sulfate: 466ug/dL (88.9-427.0)
GREAT! You supplementing DHEA???
Prolactin: 5.1ng/mL (4.0-15.2)
Nice!
PSA: 0.5ng/mL (0.0-4.0)
Nice!
IGF-1: 237ng/mL69-226)
No HGH for you man
Vitamin D 25- hydroxy: 69.1ng/mL (30-100)
Supplement 5000 units a day of D3.
E2 sensitive: 30 (3-70)
Sweet!!!
vit b-12: 693pg/mL (211-946)
progesterone: 0.9ng/mL (0.2-1.4)
Ferritin: 103ng/mL (30-400)
BUN: 25mg/dL (6-20) HIGH
BUN Creatine Ratio: 22 HIGH (8-19)
Albumin serum: 4.7g/dL (3.5-5.5)
what do u guys think? there was mention made about "upstream" deficiencies/probs that may contribute to my E2 issues. thx fellas!
gd
Last edited by steroid.com 1; 10-18-2012 at 02:19 PM.
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
thx GD. my bad! there shouldve been a decimal in the TSH. its actually 1.15 (0.45-4.50)
does this change anything???
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
also doc said my thyroid was not "hypo" but not optimal and wants to put me on thyroid meds. dessicated thyroid. he mentioned specifically free t3. and noted it should be higher up closer to the 4.4 level.
would u mind elaborating a bit on this? u think i would benefit by starting thyroid meds? sometimes i do feel a bit run down. like rite now
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
bio-available and free testosterone serum:
total: 1384 (348-1197)
%free test (dialysis) 1.8% (1.5-3.2)
free test serum: 249pg/mL (52-280)
bio-available test: 958ng/dL (128-430) (males 20-39yrs)
Testosterone serum: 1258ng/dL (348-1197)
ID also like to note i think the lab i go to may have been a little confused with the bioavailable. my doc also seem confused by it. im thinking they gave me the ranges for regular total test and if u look above i have given u the 2 difft values associated with total test. one is way high and the other is not but the ranges are the same??... could this be they dont know what theyre doing?
ive never seen a free test in these ranges either?? if u look at my free test serum it is within range..
this lab work was done the day before my test inject (around 63hrs after injection)
HRT Specialist ~ Knowledgeable Member
other than you thyroid these numbers are great! your cholesterol looks great despite all the protein you eat! finally you got your E2 in check, good fo you man. optimize your thyroid and you're good to go. how do you feel?
HRT Specialist ~ Knowledgeable Member
maybe lower your dose a little?!
HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
Is he referring to low t3 syndrome or something else?
Pissing Excellence!
hope ya get everything sorted out bud!
HRT
LOL I was going to ask if TSH was a typo it was so freaking high!also doc said my thyroid was not "hypo" but not optimal and wants to put me on thyroid meds. dessicated thyroid. he mentioned specifically free t3. and noted it should be higher up closer to the 4.4 level.
would u mind elaborating a bit on this? u think i would benefit by starting thyroid meds? sometimes i do feel a bit run down. like rite now
Yea the new TSH level changes everything so not so bad after all.
Agree on the dessicated thyroid; he'll probably add in a little Armour to get FT3 up and take some pressure off of your Thyroid...makes complete sense!
Both FT4 and FT3 are best at the high end of the reference range. When we age the thyroid slows down and our thyroid is like the accelerator in a car...it's in control of how our bodies operate on all levels. It's also why age related androgen deficiency is so prevelant.
The addition of Armour will put a bit of kick in your feet again and I'm all for it!!!
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
^^good deal man! LOL.. yeh sorry about the typo!
so get on the thyroid meds and add in adex at .25mg day after each inject (twice per week) and go for a month and other than that im good?
ill be getting on pregnenolone at 50mg per day and i have been on D3 at 5000mg per day but i think (like the DHEA) the stuff i am using is crap! as u can see my DHEA went way up from like 100 to 400something just by changing from regular OTC crap to the good micronized stuff from LEF. i even reduced dosage from 75mg per day of the crap to 50mg per day of the micronized and my levels quadrupled!
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
thx bass! yeh i dont know if it matter but all the protein i eat is the best low fat stuff like chikn breast and 96/4 ground beef (of which i eat about 1.5lbs per day!)
Junior Member
Not to high jack the thread or anything but I killed my E2 as well and have been dealing with it for 3 months. Dr final took me off my AI all together. Its been five weeks since I took my last AI and am still waiting on ED problems to go away. It has gotten much better and I feel great but not there yet. Still having to use CIalis. When I had my last blood work it was at 15 E2. Any advice on raising it. Im very lean 6'1 175lbs 10% body fat. I take 125mg of test cyp every 3.5 days. AI definelty learned a valuable lesson those pill are strong Please advise?
HRT Specialist ~ Knowledgeable Member
It's much harder to raise e2 than lowering it. It's always best to take the least amount possible AI and re check every 4 weeks until you find what works for you.
Junior Member
I know everybody is different but generally speaking wouldnt my E2 have already started to increase? Im taking 125mg of test twice a week 250mg a week. I just dropped it from 300mg a week, which I had been taking for 4 weeks. I feel good , energy strength etc.. Only issue is decreased libido and strong erections are not consistent but veryyyy much better than 4 weeks ago. I have been having severe morning wood for the past 2 weeks. Comments?
HRT
The one sure fire way to raise E2 is increase Testosterone dosage for a time.
Try adding in some flax seed oil to your supplements...and take 4X recommended amount...even more...it won't hurt you.
Flax is an estrogen mimic and may help to increase E2.
Don't stay on it for more than 6 weeks; flax and soy should be avoided by men unless in your situation.
HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
^^This and you may just be a low converter and hereditarily have a lower E2 level. Body fat level plays a part in this. If you are a low converter there's really not much you can do long term, unless you want to fatten up! Experience talking here as I run steady between 16-18 and all is well. Base it by how you feel. You're not a number on a chart. Life Extension Foundation recommends between 20-30 but we're all not gonna make it there!
kel
Junior Member
I have been taking flaxseed oil pilsl for over a month. My E2 has been high several times in the past, once it was at 89 so I know i can convert but I have never gotten it this low before. Going off of previous BW my optiomal range is between 30 and 40. I cut my test back 50mg this week. Do you think i should stay at 300mg a little longer? The only side that I have is some ED issues. Right now its kinda hit and miss, one night hard as a rock , next night semi hard. Seems like Cialis works better than the Viaga?
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
well guys its been about 6 weeks since my last blood work. i hope to get results back either today or tomorrow.
have been running adex at .25mg 24hrs after each inject (so twice per week) in hopes of dialing in my E2. i must say the past 2 or 3 weeks have been pretty tough! my anxiety is thru the roof! i have had anxiety issues before when E2 was elevated and im thinking thats what is causing it now.
the main "symptom" im having is my heart beat occasionally will get pretty strong (for lack of a better term). most of the time its in the middle of the night. ill wake up at like 2am and my heart will be beating fairly heavy like i can feel it beating inside my chest and feel/hear it in my ear (if my ear is touching something like a pillow). this is accompanied with a bit of fear there may be something wrong with my heart and/or i could have a heart attack. LOL.. logically i know this is somewhat irrational thinking considering my blood pressure stays around 120/70 and my pulse @60BPM plus i do regular cardio (90mins every other day) some of which is intervals. also id like to note my pulse at these times is pretty normal unless i start feeding into the thinking of heart probs then itll go up.
this fVcking sucks man! i also have an appt with doctor tomorrow to make sure it is indeed anxiety and i dont really have a prob with my heart. at this point im hoping my E2 does come back elevated because id hate to think im gonna be dealing with this kind of shit for the rest of my life. my mom has severe anxiety and has been on meds for 40yrs. i DO NOT want to go on anti anxiety meds. of course i want heart probs even less!
anyone else ever experience this??
Knowledgeable Member
Great thread and tons of good information. Yeah hopefully you are just a little high but either way dont stress about it and make it worse.
Associate Member
405 I am going through some of what you are talking about right now!!
I upped my test dose 50mg per week and just added dhea to my protocol few weeks back.Now at my regular dose i never needed to use a AI and run 27 to 30.Another thing to add 8 weeks ago changed to sub q injections and just thought that would make up for any estrogen increases in any of the changes i made.
Anyway I'm getting anxiety pretty bad at times and i also have been getting the strong heart beats as well.....One thing you said hit home big time with laying your head on a pillow and hearing your heart pound away!Like you said not fast but a much stronger beat than the norm.Then i start stressing about that and its 3am!!!!Then i think ok you have a 55 to 60 resting heart beat,cardio 6 days a week ,low body fat, good cholesterol just chill. I believe what you and I are dealing with is elevated estrogen and when the anxiety is mixed in it just makes everything much worse..
Good luck man getting this all figured out and hope u get feeling better soon. J
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
well i have some good news and bad news. i was gonna start another thread but figd this would be better to have this here so yall can scroll up and see last blood work.
as u may or may not know since last blood work i have been running my test sub q. i also was trying to dial in ADEX.
current protocol:
test cyp sub q 80mg every 3.5 days
300iU HCG day before test inject
.25mg Adex day after test inject
its been 6 weeks at adex .25mg
well here it is:
total test: >1500!! (348-1197)
free test: 51.2!! (8.7-25.1)
E2 (sensitive): 16 (3-70)
could this explain the post i made above?? cuz i really dont feel that great! thats freaking crazy considering ive not changed anything except went to sub q!!???
also this at 160mg per week test cyp. what should i reduce it to?? 120mg?? 60mg x 2??
obviously the good news being my E2 at 16 with test at 1500 may mean i can drop ai??
id also like to note i had blood drawn the day before my test injection..
one last thing, i have noticed my shoulders giving me pain in the night (this hadnt been present for some time) and am thinking my E2 may be on the way down since it was 30, 6 weeks ago and now its 16. im thinking to drop test down to 120mg per week from 160mg and dropping adex altogether??
theoretically at 160mg per week free test is 52 so at 120mg per week (75% of 160mg) it should be at 39
Last edited by --->>405<<---; 11-26-2012 at 12:24 PM.
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
JD thats hilarious dude! i added good dhea a few weeks ago and also switched to sub q. look at my total and free test! u may have the same deal! sub q increasing test levels! who woulda thought??!!V looking forward to some feedback here!
sorry about ur situation JD but it sounds just like mine! sux doesnt it bro? sounds like we both are having the same conversations with ourselves at 3am! LOL
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
below i am including the message from my doc's assistant regarding my blood work. this is what im dealing with! LOL..
Here is a copy of your results. I have not had a chance to review them with Dr. ******* as of yet. Playing catch up from the holidays and have patients to see so it will be this afternoon or possibly tomorrow before I can call you for review. I am forwarding a copy to let you know they look fine! Call you soon. Take care.
notice the bold.. all i can say is: LOL...
Pissing Excellence!
glad to know ya not dying!!!!!!below i am including the message from my doc's assistant regarding my blood work. this is what im dealing with! LOL..
Here is a copy of your results. I have not had a chance to review them with Dr. ******* as of yet. Playing catch up from the holidays and have patients to see so it will be this afternoon or possibly tomorrow before I can call you for review. I am forwarding a copy to let you know they look fine! Call you soon. Take care.
notice the bold.. all i can say is: LOL...
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
did u read post 31 cajun?? if not read it this is what the message was in reference to..
Associate Member
WOW brother I guess you can drop your AI now!
Man I bet my free and total T levels are up pretty good as well.Some guys feel really great when they have T levels that are really elevated.I unfortunately am not one of those guys....
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
yeh i feel fine around 35-38 but at 52 i feel like crap! no lethargy or anything just really on edge. very wound tight. like i could pop any minute LOL.. and i dont mean my temper.. just very tense. a lot of tension.. not good.
on the plus side with E2 at 16 with my test levels where they are i bet i can drop the adex especially when i reduce my test (which will start tonite)..
Junior Member
Hey 405, did you ever start thyroid medication? My thyroid labs look kind I like yours so I was just curious as this was something I was thinking about doing as well. Did your doctor explain what benefits optimizing your thyroid would have since you are already on TRT?
HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
Man 405. What an E2 roller coaster ride you've been on. On most all studies I've seen on estrogen is it low E that causes the anxiety or hormonal issues. I wish it was as easy as a math formula to make adjustments but it's really not. It is a place start though. Remember on twice weekly SQ injects you'll be running at peak levels pretty much any time you pull BW. I agree with reducing your dose and eliminating the AI as lowering T will lower conversion as well and eliminating the AI can elevate Test. So, will it put you right back where you started? Who knows until your next BW. I really think you need to be testing monthly for several months in a row to see where your consistent.
kel
ps: happy your not dying as well.
Elite-AR-Hall of Famer
thx kel. did u see post 31?? my free and total test levels? this is what im attributing anxiety to. or at least the weird heartbeat (strong pulse) which is leading to anxiety.. i did a shot tonite and cut down to .3mL or 60mg which will put me at 120mg per week.
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