Deep Vein Thrombosis while on cycle.. please help

[bolin new]

Hello guys,

I had DVT while I was doing a cycle of masteron and test e, was not taking any nolvadex or Arimidex :S

I was reading that maybe my estrogen levels where very high and that is why I got a blood cloth... I also travel alot.

My blood cloth are now gone and all is fine...

Was thinking to do a small cycle with nolvadex or arimidex this time and also do blood work every 15 days... what should i check on my blood work? which tests should i ask for to know that everything is ok?


thanks guys

[austinite]

What caused this and how did it go away? Did you have surgery?

[bolin new]

Nope.. I took blood thinning pills called warfarine.... I was reading that this is caused by high levels of estrogen... but also read that nolvadex can cause Thrombosis... would really like MUSCLEINK to help me out on this one...

I am not a newbie... I just reactivated this account after 2 years

thanks

[austinite]

ok, use the PM function if you just want Muscle Ink to help you. Or put that in your original post.

[bolin new]

I would like anyone who know what they are talking about to help.. I cannot use PM function.. i dont know why its disabled for now :S can you please let him know about this post? would be really cool of you to help

thanks!

[AD]

are you still on warfarin?

in addition to the usual labs like blood counts, cholesterol, liver/kidney panel, estro, remember to check your clotting times too. do this pre-cycle and regularly while on cycle.

if you want a consultation with Dr Ink, that will be $199 for the first 20mins.

[bolin new]

yes i am still on warfarin... will not take any AS till i get all the clear from tests etc... I am now taking HCG because my Test is really low (4.4)... was going to take some clomid and arimidex too... but i read that these can cause blood clots too?

Dr Ink is pretty expensive ahahahah

[AD]

hcg, clomid and adex, at the correct doses for treatment of low test, should not increase the risk of DVT too much. (clomid 25mg eod, adex 0.25mg 2x/wk?)

however, clomid for pct at high doses may be slightly dangerous.

what does your doc think about your gym sessions while currently still on warfarin? no restriction of activities?

[bolin new]

yes he said to take it a bit slow on weights....

I still dont know the proper arimidex dosage to take.. so i can get my test back to normal... hcg and clomid are in check.

what AS are less prone to cause DVT mate? or is it only hight estrogen levels that cause that?

thanks a lot for your help

[AD]

Now we are nearing the limit of my knowledge, but i do believe it is all due to the estro. For yourself, having already suffered one episode of dvt and currently suffering low test, i really dont recommend you to do a cycle. Getting your totalT up to around 18-20 will be more than sufficient to transform your physique. Dont take the risk. You might be more prone to dvt due to some other undiagnosed reasons.

[bolin new]

do you think i could get my total test up to 18-20 by natural test products like tribulus terrestris?

[Java Man]

hcg, clomid and adex, at the correct doses for treatment of low test, should not increase the risk of DVT too much. (clomid 25mg eod, adex 0.25mg 2x/wk?)

however, clomid for pct at high doses may be slightly dangerous.

what does your doc think about your gym sessions while currently still on warfarin? no restriction of activities?

What do you consider 'high dose' with clomid, AD?

[AD]

What do you consider 'high dose' with clomid, AD?

I would consider 100mg a high dose. It is double of what women take for fertility, which is the original purpose of clomid.

After my most recent cycle, i experimented with nolva 20/20/20/10/10/10 and clomid 50/50/50/25/25/25. Lower dose but longer duration compared to the standard protocol. I quite like it.

[AD]

do you think i could get my total test up to 18-20 by natural test products like tribulus terrestris?

Take a look at this. Discuss with you doc to see if its suitable for you.

http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...ogonadism.html

[bolin new]

thanks for the info.. will check with my doc.. i find it very difficult to know that i cant take aas anymore :S

[Lemonada8]

Do you take asprin? starting a aspirin daily will also help w/ DVT issues.

careful w/ Warfarin, follow the dosages properly and dont adjust them w/o doc supervision.

[AD]

Do you take asprin? starting a aspirin daily will also help w/ DVT issues.

careful w/ Warfarin, follow the dosages properly and dont adjust them w/o doc supervision.

Lemonada, in your opinion, which do you think contribute more to the formation of a venous thrombus. Fibrin or platelets?

[Lemonada8]

Lemonada, in your opinion, which do you think contribute more to the formation of a venous thrombus. Fibrin or platelets?

I would say that for DVT, that platelet messaging via TXa2 would play a larger part in the full clot formation.

Fibrin would be more important in the initiation of the clot formation, followed by the platelets releasing TXa2 which increases coagulation, increasing the clot size. By taking warfarin, this prevents several steps in the clotting cascade before fibrin is even involved in the cascade.

As for this thread, the combination of being on cycle w/o any estrogen controlling measures combined w/ the OP's travel habits was a clot waiting to happen. Non-medical interventions that the OP can do to help avoid a DVT is wearing compression stockings while traveling, also while seated for extended periods of time is to do calf raises to help keep the blood flowing and not becoming stagnant. The calf is nick-named " the heart of the leg" because of its "pumping" action during contraction to return blood to the heart. The calf is surrounded by a thick viscera membrane which doesnt stretch very easily and during extended periods of inactivity, the relaxed state of the muscle allows the blood to become stagnant which increases the chance of clot formation.

As for a future cycle, using an AI would most def help keep the DVT from occuring again, since estrogen is a known pro-coagulation hormone. The use of Tamox is currently debated on its effects on the clotting cycle, there are studies out there ( granted not for use during an AAS cycle) stating that tamox is pro-coagulation, and studies stating that it is anti-coag. Therefore, I am uncertain on how tamoxifen would affect the formation of a DVT.

If you do start an aspirin regimen, be sure to discuss this w/ ur doc; it may affect the dosages of warfarin.

[gearbox]

My message is all over the place. Stupid phone

Hello guys,

I had DVT while I was doing a cycle of masteron and test e, was not taking any nolvadex or Arimidex :S

I was reading that maybe my estrogen levels where very high and that is why I got a blood cloth... I also travel alot.

My blood cloth are now gone and all is fine...

Was thinking to do a small cycle with nolvadex or adex or stane this time and also do blood work every 15 days... what should i check on my blood work? which tests should i ask for to know that everything is ok? Ink is cutting and not in a good mood lol

I can contact ink but

Nolva is for pct.
Just you can run an ai like adex or stand.
Get blood work done. A full panel to see all levels.
Why would you spend the time to draw blood and not get all levels

thanks guys

[Bonaparte]

I'd think that the main culprit was your blood being too thick, rather than this being mainly due to estrogen. Next time around, make sure to donate blood as often as possible and keep those platelets and RBCs in check.

[APIs]

I'd think that the main culprit was your blood being too thick, rather than this being mainly due to estrogen. Next time around, make sure to donate blood as often as possible and keep those platelets and RBCs in check.

x2. I obtained multiple DVTs & Blood Clots in my lungs after ankle surgery. It was no joke; I was in the ICU for 5 days. In the end, the Docs felt it was just dumb luck from my foot being immobile after surgery. However, my Blood Doc did wonder if my Exogenous Test Cyp (from TRT) perhaps played a role in it? Based on this, perhaps your Hematocrit was severely elevated (making your blood viscous) which might have contributed to the DVT? Your Blood Doc who has you on the Warfarin should have ordered blood tests to determine if you have a genetic predisposition to the forming of Blood Clots. Did they perform this? This would give you an indication of what your future risk level(s) might be. At the very least, IMO OP should be strict on monitoring his Blood Work while on cycle...

[AnabolicDoc]

Please don't take aspirin while on warfarin unless instructed by your doctor. It could kill you.

Clotting happens via 2 primary mechanisms, via platelets and then coagulation factors. First platelets form a "plug" and then coagulation (aka clotting factors) factors will stabilize it. Our bodies are constantly clotting and unclotting. Warfarin was initially thought to help dissolve the clot being treated. However, now it's been found that warfarin just reduces the clotting burden on the body, thereby better enabling the body to unclot.

Despite the fact that platelets act before coagulation factors in clot formation in both arterial and venous systems, it has been shown that aspirin and other anti-platelets (such as plavix or effient) offer little protection and treatment from venous clots. Warfarin, Lovenox, and recently the addition of a whole bunch of drugs that effect the coagulation cascade, are used for the treatment and sometimes the prevention of venous clots. They are effective in the arterial system as well and occasionally used on conjunction with anti-platelet drugs (ie aspirin) depending on the reason for treatment and clinical course.

Lastly, traveling (being sedentary for long periods of time) is an independent risk factor for venous clots. Once your doctor says it's ok, you can wear venous compression stockings when flying to minimize this risk. In addition be sure to get up and stretch every so often while traveling. You may have other risk factors as well, which your doctor probably tested for the more common ones that cannot be ascertained via a history and physical exam. Of course the use of AAS, even those that don't aromatize, can increase the risk of clots. If your clot was determined to have been caused by travelling (I don't remember if u said u were using AAS at the time as well) then you should avoid cycling when you know you will be sedentary for long periods of time (ie long trips). However, if your doctor determined that you have certain other risk factors for clots, it's best if you avoid AAS use all together.

Also, tamoxifen significantly increased the risk of venous clots (DVTs). I don't believe clomid had this side effect but I am sure that the SERM with the greatest risk of DVTs is tamoxifen.

[austinite]

Please don't take aspirin while on warfarin unless instructed by your doctor. It could kill you.

Clotting happens via 2 primary mechanisms, via platelets and then coagulation factors. First platelets form a "plug" and then coagulation (aka clotting factors) factors will stabilize it. Our bodies are constantly clotting and unclotting. Warfarin was initially thought to help dissolve the clot being treated. However, now it's been found that warfarin just reduces the clotting burden on the body, thereby better enabling the body to unclot.

Despite the fact that platelets act before coagulation factors in clot formation in both arterial and venous systems, it has been shown that aspirin and other anti-platelets (such as plavix or effient) offer little protection and treatment from venous clots. Warfarin, Lovenox, and recently the addition of a whole bunch of drugs that effect the coagulation cascade, are used for the treatment and sometimes the prevention of venous clots. They are effective in the arterial system as well and occasionally used on conjunction with anti-platelet drugs (ie aspirin) depending on the reason for treatment and clinical course.

Lastly, traveling (being sedentary for long periods of time) is an independent risk factor for venous clots. Once your doctor says it's ok, you can wear venous compression stockings when flying to minimize this risk. In addition be sure to get up and stretch every so often while traveling. You may have other risk factors as well, which your doctor probably tested for the more common ones that cannot be ascertained via a history and physical exam. Of course the use of AAS, even those that don't aromatize, can increase the risk of clots. If your clot was determined to have been caused by travelling (I don't remember if u said u were using AAS at the time as well) then you should avoid cycling when you know you will be sedentary for long periods of time (ie long trips). However, if your doctor determined that you have certain other risk factors for clots, it's best if you avoid AAS use all together.

Also, tamoxifen significantly increased the risk of venous clots (DVTs). I don't believe clomid had this side effect but I am sure that the SERM with the greatest risk of DVTs is tamoxifen.

Isn't it standard practice to inject heparin in DVT cases, I thought that was a blood thinner?

[Lemonada8]

^^ Heparin is for initial treatment, then for prophylaxis warfarin is used.

[Lemonada8]

Also, tamoxifen significantly increased the risk of venous clots (DVTs). I don't believe clomid had this side effect but I am sure that the SERM with the greatest risk of DVTs is tamoxifen.

Do you have any literature backing this up? I cant find anything that definately says this.. most ones ive seen show that it barely increases thrombosis

[AnabolicDoc]

Isn't it standard practice to inject heparin in DVT cases, I thought that was a blood thinner?

Lovenox is a type of low molecular weight heparin that can be dosed by weight, given SQ 1 to 2x per day, and doesn't need monitoring of labs (ie aPTT, activated partial thromboplastin time). Heparin, by comparison, needs to be given via continuous IV infusion to treat blood clots, it's dose is constantly adjusted depending on aPTT which needs to be done every few hours initially and once stable can be done every 6 or 8 hours (depends on hospital protocol). Heparin is typically reserved for people who will be undergoing surgery within 48 hours and therefore need something shorter acting. It's also used in cases of strokes sometimes when hemorrhagic stroke has been ruled out but they're is a concern for an ischemic stroke to become hemorrhagic (aka hemorrhagic transformation).

[AnabolicDoc]

Do you have any literature backing this up? I cant find anything that definately says this.. most ones ive seen show that it barely increases thrombosis

Its listed in the manufacturer's prescribing information (PI) insert as a the most common "serious reaction" and as a "Black Box Warninng". I don't believe any of the other SERMs have it as a Black Box warning. The reason almost all, if not all, SERMs have it listed as an adverse reaction is bc it has been deemed a class effect based on tamoxifen.

If you google "tamoxifen DVT" this is the first link that comes up:

Tamoxifen treatment and risk of deep venous thrombosi... [Cancer. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI

This study demonstrates a 250% increase in risk of DVT in women treated with tamoxifen. I know that we are not women, but obviously the large majority of information and studies on tamox concern women.

[AnabolicDoc]

Here's an editorial published by the American Heart Association:

Tamoxifen

[bolin new]

Yes I read this about Tamoxifen...

So when you are on Cycle and want to lower your Estrogen level so that you have a better chance of NOT getting cloths ... what do you use? Arimidex?


I am checking with the Doc if my DVT happened because of genetic predisposition or not... Will not take any AAS before i finish my warfarin treatment and get a full check up...

If and when I am on a Cycle.. which AAS would you suggest to use.. which are the ones that thicken blood the less? I would guess Masteron and Prima.. maybe a little test... Will not use Tren for sure

[AnabolicDoc]

You really should avoid aas bc they by and large will increase your risk of clot. If you do insist on doing so, choose non-aromatizing compounds and then you may not need an AI. So you would only use a TRT dose of test, 100 - 150mg per week. Additionally you want to avoid those that increase red blood cells. I don't know which ones these include and you will need to do some thorough research to determine which ones these are exactly. I think it's a class effect meaning most AAS can have this side effect so you would be looking for those that cause the least increase in red cells. Of course EQ is most well known for this side effect and so you would avoid it completely. But I have to say I think AAS use is a bad idea for you, at least until the next few years pass, and you can be increasingly certain that reversible lifestyle factors were the primary culprit and you can change them.

[bolin new]

thanks for your imput... but if I find out the DVT was due that I did not take care of my Estrogen levels... and now make sure that I do take care... Do you guys think it will occur again?

[Lemonada8]

Aside from any heredity hypercoagulative disorder (which would have shown up before doing a cycle as a dvt) I would say your dvt was due to the combination of elevated estrogen levels and traveling alot where you are stationary for extended periods of time was the main culprit.
Being that estrogen is a venodilator causing your blood to be more stagnant than normal with the stationary calves due to travel, precautions should be taken before you cycle again.
Control your estrogen levels with an AI along with compression stockings during travels and making the extra effort to keep your calves contracting during stationary times would help prevent another DVT. Also, if you aren't kept on warfarin starting a daily aspirin regimen will also help.