Harm in Trying TRT

[Nate02]

Hi guys. Just looking for some opinions. For those who don't know I very young, 21. I have borderline low testosterone. Doctors and I have been on the fence with TRT. I think I want to try it. Since my body is still young and resilient, is there any harm in trying TRT for about a year? I want to know the benefits if there are any. After that year I will restart on Clomid, and weight the pros/cons of TRT. From then I will decide to what to do. Who knows, if I am lucky maybe I would build some muscle, lose some weight, and have an overall better well-being for that year. Maybe my testosterone levels would be higher restarting! That is optimistic thinking, though. Back to the point, is there any harm in this trial? Can I safely assume that at my age I will restart to prior hormonal levels, no problem?

[kelkel]

What is the cause of your low T? If you don't really have, or your doc's can't find the root cause, then it's time to find a better doc Nate. Even if you have to travel a bit to one of the top doc's. It's your health so it's your number one priority.

[powerlifterty16]

Hi guys. Just looking for some opinions. For those who don't know I very young, 21. I have borderline low testosterone. Doctors and I have been on the fence with TRT. I think I want to try it. Since my body is still young and resilient, is there any harm in trying TRT for about a year? I want to know the benefits if there are any. After that year I will restart on Clomid, and weight the pros/cons of TRT. From then I will decide to what to do. Who knows, if I am lucky maybe I would build some muscle, lose some weight, and have an overall better well-being for that year. Maybe my testosterone levels would be higher restarting! That is optimistic thinking, though. Back to the point, is there any harm in this trial? Can I safely assume that at my age I will restart to prior hormonal levels, no problem?

saw you post this on all things male too lol...i was wondering where uve been...long time

[dreadnok89]

I would love to know what my problem is

[Nate02]

What is the cause of your low T? If you don't really have, or your doc's can't find the root cause, then it's time to find a better doc Nate. Even if you have to travel a bit to one of the top doc's. It's your health so it's your number one priority.

Still the same old kelkel, not too sure what the cause is. I want to, but you know I'm 21. I don't have the resources to visit one of those top doctors unfortunately. Was thinking of taking a trail and error approach.

saw you post this on all things male too lol...i was wondering where uve been...long time

Hahaha long time no see my man. How are you? Yep. Needed to take a break you know. I needed to breath and take a step back before I went crazy. Plus I was in school and all.

[kelkel]

Understood Nate. I couldn't remember the "whole" story but I do now! Maybe I need to up my preg for added memory! Really a tough call Nate. I'd love to see you get the help you so deserve and get straightened out once and for all.

[powerlifterty16]

Still the same old kelkel, not too sure what the cause is. I want to, but you know I'm 21. I don't have the resources to visit one of those top doctors unfortunately. Was thinking of taking a trail and error approach.



Hahaha long time no see my man. How are you? Yep. Needed to take a break you know. I needed to breath and take a step back before I went crazy. Plus I was in school and all.

ive been alright man....as usual crisler doesnt answer peoples' posts huh? lol
i wanted to o trial and error t too.

[Nate02]

Understood Nate. I couldn't remember the "whole" story but I do now! Maybe I need to up my preg for added memory! Really a tough call Nate. I'd love to see you get the help you so deserve and get straightened out once and for all.

Hahaha maybe! Well thanks kelkel. I appreciate all your help since I first joined. I know its a tough call, but I feel like sometimes you have to deal with what you're given. Any opinion on if I can restart fully? Down the road if I do have the resources available, I could restart and finally visit a doctor like Shippen. I seem to like what he does with his patients.

Also how specific of a diagnosis are we talking about here? Primary or secondary? Because aren't a lot of secondary diagnoses just an unknown disfucntion?

ive been alright man....as usual crisler doesnt answer peoples' posts huh? lol
i wanted to o trial and error t too.

Nope. Honestly this is my favorite forum. I post in other to get more answers and opinion you know. But this is the most friendliest forum with practical knowledge.

[kelkel]

In your shoes I would probably give it a try. Who knows what level a restart would bring you to. That's always a guessing game. Diagnosis? Something beyond just primary or secondary at your young age. I would hope a specific cause could be located. Like me, I'm secondary due to a tumor. With you could it be primary due to an injury or some other variable, or a combination of factors.

[Nate02]

In your shoes I would probably give it a try. Who knows what level a restart would bring you to. That's always a guessing game. Diagnosis? Something beyond just primary or secondary at your young age. I would hope a specific cause could be located. Like me, I'm secondary due to a tumor. With you could it be primary due to an injury or some other variable, or a combination of factors.

Sorry my post wasn't very clear. I mean going on testosterone for a year or two and giving it a try to see if I feel better, and then restarting. Do you see any problem with this? Like at my age do I really have anything to lose? After a year or two wouldn't I restart smoothly? Then I could know how much better I felt on TRT, and be able to make a better judgement as to if its work the risks.

With modern medicine I would of hoped so too! It drives me nuts that no specific diagnosis has been made. But I can't keep waiting for one to pop out of the woodwork. It's getting to the time for action.

But on a side note, even before I try TRT, if I do, I plan on try a restart with Clomid to see what happens. And I think that is what you were referring to.

[phaedo]

I'mma chime in here...

Sorry my post wasn't very clear. I mean going on testosterone for a year or two and giving it a try to see if I feel better, and then restarting. Do you see any problem with this?

Yeah, huge possibility for huge problems (that's plural)

Like at my age do I really have anything to lose?

Your naivety lol. No but really, you have everything to at such a young age

After a year or two wouldn't I restart smoothly? Then I could know how much better I felt on TRT, and be able to make a better judgement as to if its work the risks.

Big NO to that question

Have you seen a competent doctor to address the problem? Ultimately, my advice is to see a professional and not try to practice medicine yourself. It can likely make your problem much worse, which we don't want.

[powerlifterty16]

I'mma chime in here...



Have you seen a competent doctor to address the problem? Ultimately, my advice is to see a professional and not try to practice medicine yourself. It can likely make your problem much worse, which we don't want.

i he ahs low t what does he have to lose? His condition is only going to get worse...cant he just go on trt, and if it helps he stays on and if not he can do clomid and hcg to restart? Not everyone finds the cause of their low t.

[powerlifterty16]

I'mma chime in here...



Have you seen a competent doctor to address the problem? Ultimately, my advice is to see a professional and not try to practice medicine yourself. It can likely make your problem much worse, which we don't want.

nate has been spending a good deal of time with this too so he isnt rushing. lol

[Nate02]

I'mma chime in here...



Have you seen a competent doctor to address the problem? Ultimately, my advice is to see a professional and not try to practice medicine yourself. It can likely make your problem much worse, which we don't want.

Thanks for your response phaedo. What problems can be caused? If you're talking about the problem of fertility I'm full aware. I've been struggling with accepting the risk. But I think the gains are to substantial to ignore. ESPECIALLY AT MY AGE once again. I'm at such a critical point in my life. I don't want to look back and think what I could of done if I wasn't dealing with low testosterone symptoms. So when I said at my age do I really have anything to lose, I was more getting at the fact that my body is young and resilient, and a restart would be more likely to occur without issue. I'm sure you see where I'm coming from.

In no way am I self-medicating. I have seen three endocrnologists. There is a fine line between self-medicating and making your own choices with what you are told.

i he ahs low t what does he have to lose? His condition is only going to get worse...cant he just go on trt, and if it helps he stays on and if not he can do clomid and hcg to restart? Not everyone finds the cause of their low t.

nate has been spending a good deal of time with this too so he isnt rushing. lol

Thanks man. I'm a little confused about that too? It seems that restarts and pretty successful, especially at a young age. So I don't know why he was so certain that trialing TRT would be negative. Please explain phaedo. And thats for sure haha. I'm not a rusher. It's been a solid year now of visiting doctors, researching, and trying not to make the wrong chocies.

[qscgugcsq]

Well, nate it may help, but it has greater chance to **** you up...

I have about the same problem I have low testosterone, due to high SHBG(I have no idea why). I'm planning on cycling and see what a testosterone boost could do to my SHBG and keep it down afterward, if it don't work TRT will be my last resort.

In your case, you can't just go in TRT for 1-2years and restart because you won't restart... 1-2year is way too long. You can't just try TRT, TRT is for life...

However, you can try a Testosterone blast and recover from it. short cycle or simply TRT dose for few weeks. And after PCT and maybe come back Higher. Like you say it would do like a restart of your endocrine system. maybe it will work, but if you don't know the cause of your low T, It's a hit or miss with high risk of miss.
I don't think the body react this way... I may be wrong I'm not the pro here.

All I'm saying is you can't trt for 2 years and hope to recover from that, if you do it, your done. You will need TRT for life.
If you want to just restart you have to shutdown, and recover in a short period of time.

Why not join the usefull to the fun and cycle.(that's what I'm thinking about my cycle XD) May be a bad idea BTW...

I would like kelkel to approve or not What I wrote above, He is the guy you need to listen.

[Nate02]

Well, nate it may help, but it has greater chance to **** you up...

I have about the same problem I have low testosterone, due to high SHBG(I have no idea why). I'm planning on cycling and see what a testosterone boost could do to my SHBG and keep it down afterward, if it don't work TRT will be my last resort.

In your case, you can't just go in TRT for 1-2years and restart because you won't restart... 1-2year is way too long. You can't just try TRT, TRT is for life...

However, you can try a Testosterone blast and recover from it. short cycle or simply TRT dose for few weeks. And after PCT and maybe come back Higher. Like you say it would do like a restart of your endocrine system. maybe it will work, but if you don't know the cause of your low T, It's a hit or miss with high risk of miss.
I don't think the body react this way... I may be wrong I'm not the pro here.

All I'm saying is you can't trt for 2 years and hope to recover from that, if you do it, your done. You will need TRT for life.
If you want to just restart you have to shutdown, and recover in a short period of time.

Why not join the usefull to the fun and cycle.(that's what I'm thinking about my cycle XD) May be a bad idea BTW...

I would like kelkel to approve or not What I wrote above, He is the guy you need to listen.

I'm not sure if that's the case or not. I have spoken with an endocrinologist, who I don't know if I should mention, but is a leading member and pioneer of male hormones. Like the real deal. And she seemed to imply when I visited her, that your body is pretty resilient after TRT. Resilient to the point that TRT for a while, like two years, would not permanently stop production. You could be right too though. It's so hard to say nowadays.

Do you have any experience with yourself or people that have not been able to start back up after a year or so?

Yes, kelkel has always been the voice of reason around here for me. We'll see what he says.

Please if anyone can share any experience with this that would be great. I just am tired of feeling this way! I'm too young for this. If I could attempt TRT for a year as a test it would be great. The big reason why it is so hard to make a decision is not knowing how beneficial TRT would be for me. Knowing would make the decision a lot easier.

[qscgugcsq]

Shutdown is shutdown, no matter if you are being shutdown by 200mg/week or 2 000mg/week, you are still shutdown the same.

being on TRT for 2 years is the same as being on cycle for 2 years non-stop.

I'm not saying it's impossible to recover after 2 years. but at 21, your endocrine system is not likely to be fully grown. so you have greater risk to cause damage in the longterm, so EVEN if you recover from the 2 years long shutdown, you will end up in TRT soon enough anyway. on the other hand recover from a short period of time, is less likely to cause damage(even though, I believe it still do).

I don't know who your endo is, but thinking that recover after 2 years of shutdown would be easy... make no sense to me...

I know someone who is in TRT at 20YO because he has been shutdown for a whole years after he took a prohormone who shut him down, he didnt recover from it.

So I hardly believe that you can recover after 2 years, even 1 years is way too long, it would be the equivalent of doing a cycle of 52 weeks...

[phaedo]

This will likely be my last reply to this thread, because it seems like you've already made up your mind. This entire board -- including the advice solicited in this thread -- is full of good reasons why NOT to immediately resort to TRT. Moreover, there are a plethora of arguments why NOT to at such a young age.

Everyone participating in your thread understands that you're wanting to remedy your low testosterone, which we agree you should. But how you go about solving the dilemma should be requisite with prudence, diligent research of the available evidence, and tactful caution to everyone's advice, to include my own, this board, and your physician's. Instead, or at least from what I can tell, you've created contradictory schemes and crazy ideas that I think warrant certain reconsideration. For example:

Was thinking of taking a trail and error approach.

my body is young and resilient, and a restart would be more likely to occur without issue

Like at my age do I really have anything to lose? After a year or two wouldn't I restart smoothly?

"I have spoken with an endocrinologist, who I don't know if I should mention, but is a leading member and pioneer of male hormones. Like the real deal. And she seemed to imply when I visited her, that your body is pretty resilient after TRT. Resilient to the point that TRT for a while, like two years, would not permanently stop production."

I'll spare you the details, but as qscgugcsq (this username is hilarious) alluded to, what you've been told and what you're assuming is inaccurate. I'm not saying it's your fault, but as an individual responsible for yourself: check your premises.

How's your diet?; frequency of exercise?; vitamin deficiencies?; thyroid levels?; genetic disposition in comparison to family members?; exposure to chemicals or dangerous substances?; LH/FSH?; opinions of the other two endocrinologists?; other blood tests? et cetera. These is just a tiny list to what could help pinpoint the solution.

If I can cull up the words from the classic movie Office Space: "you're jumping to conclusions!"

[phaedo]

i he ahs low t what does he have to lose? His condition is only going to get worse...cant he just go on trt, and if it helps he stays on and if not he can do clomid and hcg to restart? Not everyone finds the cause of their low t.

That's a confirmation bias and bears absolutely no reason why Nate should not attempt to find HIS cause of low testosterone.

And this question: "what do I have to lose" keeps getting thrown around here as if the answer is a blatant "oh nothing at all!" Hardly. Let's see here... infertility, a lifetime of pinning, enormous financial liability, medical dependency... and that's just to name a few. It's better to solve a problem accepting fewer risks then immediately reaching for the last straw.

[Nate02]

That's a confirmation bias and bears absolutely no reason why Nate should not attempt to find HIS cause of low testosterone.

And this question: "what do I have to lose" keeps getting thrown around here as if the answer is a blatant "oh nothing at all!" Hardly. Let's see here... infertility, a lifetime of pinning, enormous financial liability, medical dependency... and that's just to name a few. It's better to solve a problem accepting fewer risks then immediately reaching for the last straw.

Hey man, listen. I really appreciate your advice, but I'm not jumping to conclusions as much as you think here, and that is my fault.

My Thread
Test One- Issued by my Family Doctor

Testosterone , Serum: 265 (348-1197)
"""""
Test Two

TSH: 2.360 (0.450-4.500)
LH: 4.2 (1.7-8.6)
FSH: 1.1 (1.5-12.4)
Testosterone, Serum: 330 (348-1197)
Prolactin: 8.5 (4.0-15.2)
"""""
Test Three- Issued by an Endocrinologist

Free Testosterone(Direct): 9.4 (9.3-26.5)
Testosterone, Total, Lc/Ms: 253.9 (348-1197)
LH: 4.1 (1.7-8.6)
FSH: 1.1 (1.5-12.4)
"""""
Test Four- Issued by an Endocrinologist-- I had been off Prozac for one week at this point. This is the only test I was off it.

Cortisol: 20.8 (2.3-19.4)
TSH: 4.2: (0.450-4.500)

I had an MRI done, and the results came back clear.
"""""
Test Five- Test I requested-- Issued by Family Doctor-- This test was after taking Synthroid 50mcgs

Thyroid Panel With TSH
TSH: 1.930 (0.450-4.500)
Thyroxine (T4): 9.6 (4.5-12.0)
T3 Uptake: 34 (24-39)
Free Thyroxine Index: 3.3 (1.2-4.9)
Thyroid Antibodies
Thyroid Peroxidase (TPO) Ab: 8 (0-34)
Antithyroglobulin Ab: <20 (0-40)
Luteinizing Hormone (LH): 7.3 (1.7-8.6)
FSH, Serum: 1.3 (1.5-12.4)[/U]
Calcitonin, Serum: <2.0 (0.0-8.4)
Reverse T3, Serum: 21.5 (9.2-24.1)
Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy: 32.6 (30.0-100.0)
Triiodothyronine (T3): 115 (71-180)
Estrogens, Total: 83 (40-115)
Ferritin, Serum: 70 (30-400)
Triiodothyronine, Free, Serum: 3.7 (2.0-4.4)

Salivary Cortisol Test
Morning - 3.8 ng/mL (7.0-10)
Midday - 3.1 ng/mL (3.0-6.0)
Evening - 2.5 ng/mL (2.5-4.0)
Night - 2.2 ng/mL (<1.5)

Celiac Disease Comprehensive:
T-Transglutaminase (Ttg) lgg: 8 U/mL (0-5 U/mL)
Immunoglobulin A, Qn, Serum: 102 mg/dL (91-414 mg/dL)
T-Transglutaminase (Ttg) Iga: <2 (0-3)
Deamidated Gliadin Abs, Iga: 3 (0-19)
Deamidated Gliadin Abs, Igg: 6 (0-19)
Endomysial Antibody Iga: Negative


This is a Metabolic Panel I took recently along with tests for Rheumatoid Arthritis:

Comp. Metabolic Panel (14)

Potassium, Serum: 4.3 (3.5-5.2 mmol/L)
Bun: 17 (6-20 mg/dL)
Creatinine, Serum: (1.02 (0.76-1.27 mg/dL)
Chloride, Serum: 103 (97-108 mmol/L)
Ast (Sgot): 23 (0-40 IU/L)
Albumin, Serum: 4.6 (3.5-5.5 g/dL)
Sodium, Serum: 141 (134-144 mmol/L)
Bilirubin, Total: 0.7 (0.0-1.2 mg/dL)
Protein, Total, Serum: 6.8 (6.0-8.5 g/dL)
Alkaline Phosphatase, S: 102 25-150 IU/L
Alt (Sgpt): 20 (0-44 IU/L)
Calcium, Serum: 9.5 (8.7-10.2 mg/dL)
Glucose, Serum: 87 65-99 mg/dL)
Carbon Dioxide, Total: 25 (19-28 mmol/L)
Bun/Creatinine Ratio: 17 (8-19 1)
A/G Ratio: 2.1 (1.1-2.5 1)
Globulin, Total: 2.2 (1.5-4.5 g/dL)

I also have a bunch of tests on TRT, but I didn't include them since I want to start form the beginning!

These are just some of the important test I've taken over the past year. I've been going to three endocrinologists and taking advice from this forum for the past year. There is certainly no jumping to conclusions. You talk about my lifestyle. Of course that was the first thing I tried to change. And I still am. As you can tell I might be very stubborn and it's hard to change my mind, but reckless is not a word use to describe me. Endocrinologists have been back and forth on whether they should put me on testosterone. They think I am hypogonadic but can't determine why. However one endocrinologist said that I don't need testosterone at all. And she was the great one. But with all the talk on these forums about how most doctors aren't familiar with testosterone, and that they put the medical needs before their needs, what am I supposed to do here? They can't tell me, you guys can't tell me. I can only take the advice from everyone (doctors obviously weighed more of course, but unfortunately they aren't certain what exactly to do.. except the one) and try to make the best decision I can make. And quite frankly if it came between my overall quality of life and fertility? I was choose my quality of life any day. And I so wish there was a way to keep both but it doesn't look like it. You speak of finances, shooting myself? All things I have considered since the start of my journey. But how can they compare to my happiness? I'd be more than willing to stick myself, put up with financial hardship, and risk fertility for my happiness. The problem I am facing though is will testosterone lead to my happiness. That I can't answer without knowing how I would feel on it.

Sorry for any grammar mistakes, in a rush.

But either way sorry for leaving out the other tests and stuff. You can check any of my threads to see whats up.

Thanks again for commentying.

[powerlifterty16]

wait you were on trt? i didnt know that. i think prozac may be killing your t levels.
i you were on trt, then doesnt that answer the question of this thread? if you felt good on it, go back if not then the answer isnt t ?

[Nate02]

wait you were on trt? i didnt know that. i think prozac may be killing your t levels.
i you were on trt, then doesnt that answer the question of this thread? if you felt good on it, go back if not then the answer isnt t ?

Ah whoops. Need to clarify once more. I was on TRT for maybe a month until my endocrinologist took me off. Sooo not nearly long enough to tell anything! And Prozac I haven't been on for about a year now. So I don't think that had much to do with it. Unless the effects on my testosterone were long lasting.

[kelkel]

Well, nate it may help, but it has greater chance to **** you up...

I have about the same problem I have low testosterone, due to high SHBG(I have no idea why). I'm planning on cycling and see what a testosterone boost could do to my SHBG and keep it down afterward, if it don't work TRT will be my last resort.

In your case, you can't just go in TRT for 1-2years and restart because you won't restart... 1-2year is way too long. You can't just try TRT, TRT is for life...

However, you can try a Testosterone blast and recover from it. short cycle or simply TRT dose for few weeks. And after PCT and maybe come back Higher. Like you say it would do like a restart of your endocrine system. maybe it will work, but if you don't know the cause of your low T, It's a hit or miss with high risk of miss.
I don't think the body react this way... I may be wrong I'm not the pro here.

All I'm saying is you can't trt for 2 years and hope to recover from that, if you do it, your done. You will need TRT for life.
If you want to just restart you have to shutdown, and recover in a short period of time.

Why not join the usefull to the fun and cycle.(that's what I'm thinking about my cycle XD) May be a bad idea BTW...

I would like kelkel to approve or not What I wrote above, He is the guy you need to listen.

Gsc a quick thought for you and your shbg. If on TRT slightly increase it. At the same time up your D3 and make sure you're at the top. Begin taking avena-cosides or stinging nettle. Goal being to suppress it with T and hopefully hold it down with a better D level and avena/nettle. If that fails look into Danozol for a period of time to reduce it. Temp fix though. If not on TRT, the rest still applies.

Re Nate. He's been through the wringer here. We've discussed his situation in depth both currently and in the past in threads and PM's. I don't think I would have lasted as long as he has. When it comes to restarting there's always an inherent risk. But there's nothing saying a restart is not possible. Even after an extended period of time. Even though I would not recommend the "extended" part for obvious reasons. But TRT is not for life. It's a choice, that's all. Production will return, how much would remain to be seen. With a properly guided pct there's a good chance a person will recover. There are other ancillaries out there to help the more advanced but IMHO they need to evolve and be studied more. I only know a few who have used them. Re Triptorelin.

When it comes to fertility, HCG would keeps thing going as would HMG if cost effective. Top level bodybuilders get their other half's pregnant all the time. It doesn't take all the boys swimming upstream, just one good one.

On a side note, as some of you mentioned cycling. Scally doesn't even recommend the use of HCG unless a cycle is over 20 weeks long. He prefers it to be used in the beginning of PCT. For those of you who are not familiar with Scally he's one of the most knowledgeable people (world-wide) when it comes to pct.

I've given my opinion to Nate in conversations via PM. If he chooses to try TRT he does not need a year to make an effective decision. Results, either good or bad should be apparent much quicker than that.

This really is a great thread guys. A lot of good facts, thoughts and opinions by the membership. Nate now has to choose a path forward....



@ Phaedo. Very well thought out opinions above.

[100%]

Some restart info. Testosterone: A Man's Guide: How to Stop Testosterone Safely and Possibly Reset Your Hormonal Axis

[sparverius]

Finding a doctor who can correctly manage a restart is going to be even more difficult than finding a doc who understands and is up to date on TRT. And of course if you're low now and don't (or can't) address a root cause, when you restart the best you can expect is to be like you are now.

I think trying Clomid (and an AI?) now would be good. If nothing else you will learn something about why you are low. Clomid did not work for my restart attempt which indicates that I'm primary.

[Nate02]

Thank you kelkel

Some restart info. Testosterone: A Man's Guide: How to Stop Testosterone Safely and Possibly Reset Your Hormonal Axis

Thanks for the reading man.

Finding a doctor who can correctly manage a restart is going to be even more difficult than finding a doc who understands and is up to date on TRT. And of course if you're low now and don't (or can't) address a root cause, when you restart the best you can expect is to be like you are now.

I think trying Clomid (and an AI?) now would be good. If nothing else you will learn something about why you are low. Clomid did not work for my restart attempt which indicates that I'm primary.

I know and all I will be looking for in that restart is to be where I am now. The point isn't to solve anything, only to help me decide if TRT is a good idea, you know? I do wish I could address a root cause, but it's not rearing it's head and I really have been through the wringer. Where I am in MD is surrounded by great medical care though, if they can't find it then they can't find it.

I brought that up to my endocrinologist the other day and he was like ... "No no no no ... just no" basically.

[thisAngelBites]

Your TSH is probably still too high (and I would also wonder about reverse T3 being high normal), and your adrenals are not making enough cortisol in the morning, although you do have a diurnal pattern. I wonder why your adrenals are making so little cortisol in the morning at your age.

I read all you wrote and understand you have been working on this a while. If it were me, I would get my adrenals and thyroid properly supported before I did something that has the risk of being on lifelong testosterone. Hormones made by these two glands affect almost everything in the body.

Have you looked at symptoms of low cortisol to see if they fit what you are experiencing?

[Nate02]

Your TSH is probably still too high (and I would also wonder about reverse T3 being high normal), and your adrenals are not making enough cortisol in the morning, although you do have a diurnal pattern. I wonder why your adrenals are making so little cortisol in the morning at your age.

I read all you wrote and understand you have been working on this a while. If it were me, I would get my adrenals and thyroid properly supported before I did something that has the risk of being on lifelong testosterone. Hormones made by these two glands affect almost everything in the body.

Have you looked at symptoms of low cortisol to see if they fit what you are experiencing?

A TSH of around 1.9 is too high?

Yeah, I wish I could tell you. But I don't know which to believe. Mainstream medicine as accepted the blood test cortisol which came in at like 19.3, but the saliva was low. I don't know where to turn.

Thanks for the advice.

I did check it out and I do experience a decent amount of symptoms, but they're all general so I don't know if it is low cortisol or not. Especially since I don't know if the blood test or saliva is correct.

[powerlifterty16]

A TSH of around 1.9 is too high?

Yeah, I wish I could tell you. But I don't know which to believe. Mainstream medicine as accepted the blood test cortisol which came in at like 19.3, but the saliva was low. I don't know where to turn.

Thanks for the advice.

I did check it out and I do experience a decent amount of symptoms, but they're all general so I don't know if it is low cortisol or not. Especially since I don't know if the blood test or saliva is correct.

i disagree with the tsh being high..1.9 is awesome..high is 3 or more.

[powerlifterty16]

i still think u have your answer since u already did trt for a month or so...you should have seen some changes in that time period...i think the risks of trt are overrated..i think you can more or less get back to where uare now..the biggest risk id worry about is balding, and acne

[Nate02]

i still think u have your answer since u already did trt for a month or so...you should have seen some changes in that time period...i think the risks of trt are overrated..i think you can more or less get back to where uare now..the biggest risk id worry about is balding, and acne

You think a month is long enough? I never even had my estrogen tested on it to see if it was O.K.

I think the risks of short-term use are, for sure. Thanks for the comment, man.

Haha I'm not raising it to steroid heights! Just to a normal height! Haha I don't think it'll bald me... hopefully.

[powerlifterty16]

You think a month is long enough? I never even had my estrogen tested on it to see if it was O.K.

I think the risks of short-term use are, for sure. Thanks for the comment, man.

Haha I'm not raising it to steroid heights! Just to a normal height! Haha I don't think it'll bald me... hopefully.

i think it could still bald us man.....i hope it doesnt that is my biggest fear.

[thisAngelBites]

Hi Nate,

Yes, a TSH of 1.9 could be too high. I personally would feel like death warmed over at that level (and have). Where you are in the world, and which doctor you have decides which TSH is good and which represents your pituitary being upset with your thyroid for not making enough hormone.

I have a very slightly enlightened endocrinologist in London (by which I mean he is receptive to good reasoning, not that he particularly knows what he is doing, unless he is treating diabetes or infertility), and he thinks TSH should definitely be under 2 (which yours is, but only just). There are physicians in Australia and Germany and in other countries around the world who aim to treat hypothyroid patients so their TSH is closer to 1.0. Then there are places in the world where 3, 5, 8 and even 15 represents the onset of hypothyroidism.

It's crazy to think all these different views all represent hypothyroidism. I'm not sure why it is this way, but the one conclusion I think it's safe to draw is that these people just don't know what they are doing and there is nothing approaching consensus. If you spend any time online reading the histories of patients who have had trouble getting their hypothyroidism resolved, you will see that many of them finally found physicians who felt they were not taking enough thyroid hormone, and once their dose was increased, they felt exponentially better (in some cases, taking small but not sufficient amounts of levothyroxine actually made them feel worse instead of better until they got to the proper dose).

I'm not sure this is the case for you, but given your low morning cortisol and your reverse T3, I think it is enough to be suspect. Have a look at this page:

Reverse T3 (also called Reverse Triiodothyronine) | Stop The Thyroid Madnessâ„¢

If I were you, I would get myself to one of the rare endos who treats recalcitrant thyroid and adrenal problems, hoping they might recognise your pattern and help you sort it out. Here's some info on how to find a decent doc:

HOW TO FIND A GOOD DOCTOR | Stop The Thyroid Madnessâ„¢ and

Thyroid Disease Top Doctors Directory -- Best Practitioners for Hypothyroidism, Hyperthyroidism & More

Salivary tests are now used more commonly by docs to diagnose Cushing's disease (where they use to use midnight bloods to document suspected high cortisol), probably because nobody wants to be doing blood draws at night unless it's an emergency, but there is a study that compares the values of blood and salivary cortisol:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content.../3647.full.pdf

What will matter also is also what time of day the blood cortisol was drawn, and frequently, the act of having a needle put into your vein raises your cortisol a bit (as opposed to spitting into a tube).

I can see your testosterone is low, but I am not an expert on men's hormones. But I will tell you what my worry for you is: that you will treat the low testosterone, but not see the improvement you would expect because you have some sort of underlying issue going on with your adrenals and thyroid. Then you or your physicians will think that the testosterone is not an issue, and just be generally led astray. If you get those two in order, see how you feel, then you test the hormones again. Then if you are still frankly low in testosterone, you will absolutely know, and then, barring any diagnostics to determine the cause, you can treat, and if you have to be on it forever, then at least you know you sorted everything else out, and that you didn't just jump into something that could potentially be permanent without thinking and puzzling things out that could complicate each other in the correct order.

I think it is better to sort out the adrenals and thyroid first, but perhaps someone else here may argue for sorting out testosterone first, but I think that is the thing before you at the moment is to decide which you need to concentrate on first.

A TSH of around 1.9 is too high?

Yeah, I wish I could tell you. But I don't know which to believe. Mainstream medicine as accepted the blood test cortisol which came in at like 19.3, but the saliva was low. I don't know where to turn.

Thanks for the advice.

I did check it out and I do experience a decent amount of symptoms, but they're all general so I don't know if it is low cortisol or not. Especially since I don't know if the blood test or saliva is correct.

[Nate02]

Hi Nate,

Yes, a TSH of 1.9 could be too high. I personally would feel like death warmed over at that level (and have). Where you are in the world, and which doctor you have decides which TSH is good and which represents your pituitary being upset with your thyroid for not making enough hormone.

I have a very slightly enlightened endocrinologist in London (by which I mean he is receptive to good reasoning, not that he particularly knows what he is doing, unless he is treating diabetes or infertility), and he thinks TSH should definitely be under 2 (which yours is, but only just). There are physicians in Australia and Germany and in other countries around the world who aim to treat hypothyroid patients so their TSH is closer to 1.0. Then there are places in the world where 3, 5, 8 and even 15 represents the onset of hypothyroidism.

It's crazy to think all these different views all represent hypothyroidism. I'm not sure why it is this way, but the one conclusion I think it's safe to draw is that these people just don't know what they are doing and there is nothing approaching consensus. If you spend any time online reading the histories of patients who have had trouble getting their hypothyroidism resolved, you will see that many of them finally found physicians who felt they were not taking enough thyroid hormone, and once their dose was increased, they felt exponentially better (in some cases, taking small but not sufficient amounts of levothyroxine actually made them feel worse instead of better until they got to the proper dose).

I'm not sure this is the case for you, but given your low morning cortisol and your reverse T3, I think it is enough to be suspect. Have a look at this page:

Reverse T3 (also called Reverse Triiodothyronine) | Stop The Thyroid Madnessâ„¢

If I were you, I would get myself to one of the rare endos who treats recalcitrant thyroid and adrenal problems, hoping they might recognise your pattern and help you sort it out. Here's some info on how to find a decent doc:

HOW TO FIND A GOOD DOCTOR | Stop The Thyroid Madnessâ„¢ and

Thyroid Disease Top Doctors Directory -- Best Practitioners for Hypothyroidism, Hyperthyroidism & More

Salivary tests are now used more commonly by docs to diagnose Cushing's disease (where they use to use midnight bloods to document suspected high cortisol), probably because nobody wants to be doing blood draws at night unless it's an emergency, but there is a study that compares the values of blood and salivary cortisol:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content.../3647.full.pdf

What will matter also is also what time of day the blood cortisol was drawn, and frequently, the act of having a needle put into your vein raises your cortisol a bit (as opposed to spitting into a tube).

I can see your testosterone is low, but I am not an expert on men's hormones. But I will tell you what my worry for you is: that you will treat the low testosterone, but not see the improvement you would expect because you have some sort of underlying issue going on with your adrenals and thyroid. Then you or your physicians will think that the testosterone is not an issue, and just be generally led astray. If you get those two in order, see how you feel, then you test the hormones again. Then if you are still frankly low in testosterone, you will absolutely know, and then, barring any diagnostics to determine the cause, you can treat, and if you have to be on it forever, then at least you know you sorted everything else out, and that you didn't just jump into something that could potentially be permanent without thinking and puzzling things out that could complicate each other in the correct order.

I think it is better to sort out the adrenals and thyroid first, but perhaps someone else here may argue for sorting out testosterone first, but I think that is the thing before you at the moment is to decide which you need to concentrate on first.

Thanks for the response.

I've noticed that with not just your Thyroid but everything! It's maddening. It seems like there should be a set reference range for these things, and location shouldn't cause a difference. After all, we are all people.

I've visited that site before as well. I definitely think my Adrenal Glands and Thyroid should be treated first. It's just again I don't know what to believe, and a very good Endocrinologist of mine said Adrenal Fatigue was essentially a joke.

Either way I've been taking good care of myself this summer to try and combat my Adrenal Fatigue, assuming it exists.

Well if salivary cortisol levels are a good judge, mine aren't looking too good. My doctor also said salivary cortisol was not tested enough to be considered useful.

Thanks a lot for your advice. I'm thinking that as well, but at the same time I don't want to miss out on TRT because I'm trying to treat Adrenal Fatigue, which may or may not exist. I don't want to chase a phantom disorder when the answer, possibly TRT, has been in front of me all along you know? It's just a difficult decision as I am sure you can tell from the other posts.

[Nate02]

i think it could still bald us man.....i hope it doesnt that is my biggest fear.

Me too hahaha. I have a thread on DHT because of that.

[powerlifterty16]

Hi Nate,

Yes, a TSH of 1.9 could be too high. I personally would feel like death warmed over at that level (and have). Where you are in the world, and which doctor you have decides which TSH is good and which represents your pituitary being upset with your thyroid for not making enough hormone.

I have a very slightly enlightened endocrinologist in London (by which I mean he is receptive to good reasoning, not that he particularly knows what he is doing, unless he is treating diabetes or infertility), and he thinks TSH should definitely be under 2 (which yours is, but only just). There are physicians in Australia and Germany and in other countries around the world who aim to treat hypothyroid patients so their TSH is closer to 1.0. Then there are places in the world where 3, 5, 8 and even 15 represents the onset of hypothyroidism.

It's crazy to think all these different views all represent hypothyroidism. I'm not sure why it is this way, but the one conclusion I think it's safe to draw is that these people just don't know what they are doing and there is nothing approaching consensus. If you spend any time online reading the histories of patients who have had trouble getting their hypothyroidism resolved, you will see that many of them finally found physicians who felt they were not taking enough thyroid hormone, and once their dose was increased, they felt exponentially better (in some cases, taking small but not sufficient amounts of levothyroxine actually made them feel worse instead of better until they got to the proper dose).

I'm not sure this is the case for you, but given your low morning cortisol and your reverse T3, I think it is enough to be suspect. Have a look at this page:

Reverse T3 (also called Reverse Triiodothyronine) | Stop The Thyroid Madnessâ„¢

If I were you, I would get myself to one of the rare endos who treats recalcitrant thyroid and adrenal problems, hoping they might recognise your pattern and help you sort it out. Here's some info on how to find a decent doc:

HOW TO FIND A GOOD DOCTOR | Stop The Thyroid Madnessâ„¢ and

Thyroid Disease Top Doctors Directory -- Best Practitioners for Hypothyroidism, Hyperthyroidism & More

Salivary tests are now used more commonly by docs to diagnose Cushing's disease (where they use to use midnight bloods to document suspected high cortisol), probably because nobody wants to be doing blood draws at night unless it's an emergency, but there is a study that compares the values of blood and salivary cortisol:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content.../3647.full.pdf

What will matter also is also what time of day the blood cortisol was drawn, and frequently, the act of having a needle put into your vein raises your cortisol a bit (as opposed to spitting into a tube).

I can see your testosterone is low, but I am not an expert on men's hormones. But I will tell you what my worry for you is: that you will treat the low testosterone, but not see the improvement you would expect because you have some sort of underlying issue going on with your adrenals and thyroid. Then you or your physicians will think that the testosterone is not an issue, and just be generally led astray. If you get those two in order, see how you feel, then you test the hormones again. Then if you are still frankly low in testosterone, you will absolutely know, and then, barring any diagnostics to determine the cause, you can treat, and if you have to be on it forever, then at least you know you sorted everything else out, and that you didn't just jump into something that could potentially be permanent without thinking and puzzling things out that could complicate each other in the correct order.

I think it is better to sort out the adrenals and thyroid first, but perhaps someone else here may argue for sorting out testosterone first, but I think that is the thing before you at the moment is to decide which you need to concentrate on first.

not to hijack nate's thread but my tsh came back at 3.87 this time..it was 2.8 last month. my free t4 was 1.22. is the free t4 good?
lots of drs are clueless and think that tsh under 5 is good,
i dont know if it even matters though, isnt armour very hard to get? i dont want to take synthetic thyroid.

nate, i think you may be like me. i think personally one month is long enough to see changes but i think yo uare holding onto the idea that t is your issue and are in denial that one month was long long enough to see results.

trust me, i am not sayin gt isnt your issue i think it may be, im just saying that maybe you are intentionally overlooking changes that might or might not have occurred in that month.
then again you did say your e2 was never checked.

but yah it's much easier to have a t disorder and get free steroids than to have a psych disorder and get testosterone altering drugs....so maybe that is part of it..denial...but like i said i still think your t is low and is causing some probs man.

[Nate02]

not to hijack nate's thread but my tsh came back at 3.87 this time..it was 2.8 last month. my free t4 was 1.22. is the free t4 good?
lots of drs are clueless and think that tsh under 5 is good,
i dont know if it even matters though, isnt armour very hard to get? i dont want to take synthetic thyroid.

nate, i think you may be like me. i think personally one month is long enough to see changes but i think yo uare holding onto the idea that t is your issue and are in denial that one month was long long enough to see results.

trust me, i am not sayin gt isnt your issue i think it may be, im just saying that maybe you are intentionally overlooking changes that might or might not have occurred in that month.
then again you did say your e2 was never checked.

but yah it's much easier to have a t disorder and get free steroids than to have a psych disorder and get testosterone altering drugs....so maybe that is part of it..denial...but like i said i still think your t is low and is causing some probs man.

No worries. I don't take that as an insult jk.

I've just read that it certainly takes more than a month.

I wouldn't use the word denial so much ... but I see where you're coming from. I'm definitely fixed on TRT, but that is because I don't know where else to turn. This trial would be down the road when I have done my best to treat my Thyroid and Adrenals like thisAngelBites mentions above. I guess it comes down to would I whether treat none of my symptoms or some of my symptoms, assuming the trial would go well.

[100%]

Hi Nate,

I have a very slightly enlightened endocrinologist in London (by which I mean he is receptive to good reasoning, not that he particularly knows what he is doing, unless he is treating diabetes or infertility), and he thinks TSH should definitely be under 2 (which yours is, but only just). There are physicians in Australia and Germany and in other countries around the world who aim to treat hypothyroid patients so their TSH is closer to 1.0. Then there are places in the world where 3, 5, 8 and even 15 represents the onset of hypothyroidism.

It's crazy to think all these different views all represent hypothyroidism. I'm not sure why it is this way, but the one conclusion I think it's safe to draw is that these people just don't know what they are doing and there is nothing approaching consensus. If you spend any time online reading the histories of patients who have had trouble getting their hypothyroidism resolved, you will see that many of them finally found physicians who felt they were not taking enough thyroid hormone, and once their dose was increased, they felt exponentially better (in some cases, taking small but not sufficient amounts of levothyroxine actually made them feel worse instead of better until they got to the proper dose).

I'm not sure this is the case for you, but given your low morning cortisol and your reverse T3, I think it is enough to be suspect. Have a look at this page:

Reverse T3 (also called Reverse Triiodothyronine) | Stop The Thyroid Madnessâ„¢

If I were you, I would get myself to one of the rare endos who treats recalcitrant thyroid and adrenal problems, hoping they might recognise your pattern and help you sort it out. Here's some info on how to find a decent doc:

HOW TO FIND A GOOD DOCTOR | Stop The Thyroid Madnessâ„¢ and

Thyroid Disease Top Doctors Directory -- Best Practitioners for Hypothyroidism, Hyperthyroidism & More

Salivary tests are now used more commonly by docs to diagnose Cushing's disease (where they use to use midnight bloods to document suspected high cortisol), probably because nobody wants to be doing blood draws at night unless it's an emergency, but there is a study that compares the values of blood and salivary cortisol:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content.../3647.full.pdf

What will matter also is also what time of day the blood cortisol was drawn, and frequently, the act of having a needle put into your vein raises your cortisol a bit (as opposed to spitting into a tube).

I can see your testosterone is low, but I am not an expert on men's hormones. But I will tell you what my worry for you is: that you will treat the low testosterone, but not see the improvement you would expect because you have some sort of underlying issue going on with your adrenals and thyroid. Then you or your physicians will think that the testosterone is not an issue, and just be generally led astray. If you get those two in order, see how you feel, then you test the hormones again. Then if you are still frankly low in testosterone, you will absolutely know, and then, barring any diagnostics to determine the cause, you can treat, and if you have to be on it forever, then at least you know you sorted everything else out, and that you didn't just jump into something that could potentially be permanent without thinking and puzzling things out that could complicate each other in the correct order.

I think it is better to sort out the adrenals and thyroid first, but perhaps someone else here may argue for sorting out testosterone first, but I think that is the thing before you at the moment is to decide which you need to concentrate on first.

Ton of great info Thank you!