clomid 20 ed as a stand alone pct...

[20YO]

Hi guys, 2 weeks before completing a 6 week blast of test e, i added clomid 20mg ed. i did this because i was getting some nipple puffiness, and was also curious if the clomid would impart any effect on my hpta...

A couple days after finishing my cycle (10 days ago today) i did bloods to see where things were at.

Results are in...

lh 26 (range 1.5-8.5)
fsh 15.7 (range 1.5-12.4)
e2 - 149 (range 30-150)
didnt do an androgen profile again because id pinned a few days prior to the test... i knew what the results would be

how is this possible??
i was planning on running clmid at 50, nolva at 40..... but do i stick with clomid 20 instead?
im concerned i might increase my lh too much if i run a normal pct

please share your thoughts

[jimmyinkedup]

Clomid only is exactly what we used to use for pct. It worked but combined with nolva it works better. You dont have to worry about "getting those levels too high" you want to crank up production as much as possible because when you cease pct there will be a drop off. The higher those levls and the higher level your testes are functioning, the less impact that drop off will have. Hope that helps.

[kelkel]

^^It should.

Basically you're hyper-stimulated.

[20YO]

thanks for the quick replies fellas...
so if clomid does work during course, why wouldnt everyone use it during course?
also, when i do another set of bloods in 2 or 3 weeks, can i expect to have supraphysiologic t level? given my lh and fsh will most likely be through the roof?

i was on trt for 4 weeks prior to course (doc stopped prescribing)... so im thinking of staying on low dose clomid post pct as a trt alternative. thoughts?

[austinite]

How much testosterone are you injecting?

[20YO]

austinite,
i stopped injecting 10 days ago. the lh and fsh levels were done a day after my last injection.
i was on 100mg test/wk for trt; 500mg test/wk for my blast.

[austinite]

Ok so let me make sure I understand...

You injected 500 mg for 6 weeks. At week 4, you started administering 20 mg of clomid. So when did you stop taking clomid?

[20YO]

thats correct mate. i have not stopped the clomid. I have been off course for 10 days.

[austinite]

Ok well I'm in fact a bit confused with your results.

If your blood was drawn the day after your last injection, then serum testosterone would still be considerably elevated and shuts everything down, even though as a TRT patient, you should already be shut down. The pituitary should not be secreting gonadotropins at those levels. Clomid will attempt to stimulate the activity but suppression from exo test easily overpowers any effects clomid has in this department (It should!). I mean, this is the very reason we don't take Clomid during cycles, because it generally does not work with the presence of exo test. So I'm surprised by your numbers and I think they're unique.

Are you using UGL testosterone? Your gear could be bunk.

[Bio-Active]

You were on trt at 20trs old? Why?

[20YO]

jim - i initially got on TRT because I had two tests come back with total t at 12 (scale 12-26)
symptoms included ed, anxiety, anhedonia, ++ abdominal fat, no gains at gym despite good diet and training regime

[20YO]

thanks for your reply austinite; I'm equally as confused.
I used 2 vials of test e, both from the same source, both unlabeled and capped. I injected 250mgs on Tuesdays and again on Fridays. The first vial lasted me 5 weeks; i only used the second vial for 1 or 2 shots thereafter.
I know the first vial was legit, because i did bloods in my first week - test came back >52 (range 12-26)

So what are the other possibilities?

I will add here, that every time I've tested my progesterone (during trt and also during course) it has been high (6.5 on a scale of 1-5). My DHEA is also high (17 on a scale of 5-13)
Prolactin and thyroid were normal prior to TRT

Other clinically relevant info.... I have been hypertensive for the previous 12 months. More recently I have been having paroxysms of tachycardia and facial flushing.
So maybe there is an issue with my pituitary gland... an adenoma there could explain the bp issues, and it could explain why i reacted so strongly to the clomid... maybe?
However, when i first got my levels done (prior to trt) my lh and fsh were at the low end of the scale.... so i dunno... can adenomas progress in this sort of manner?

Other options... maybe the hypothalamus is much more sensitive to estrogen than it is to testosterone... or at least it is in my case?
Or maybe my pituitary gland is highly sensitive to Gnrh? again unlikely... given my lh and fsh levels pre treatment.

But the question i really needa answer is where do i go from here?

[austinite]

Hypertension for 12 months? When was the last time you donated blood?

2OYO, you have some issues to attend to. Hope you don't take offense to my bluntness, but I don't know how else to put it. You are being entirely irresponsible. You should have never blasted through your TRT with the issues you mention above. Furthermore; at your age, your doctor should have attempted a restart, not put you on therapy. This is indicative of an ill-informed doctor who is not up to date.

You need to stop everything and seek a professional who will help restore your testosterone levels.

Best of luck to you.

[20YO]

havent donated in a long while; my haematocrit is normal though. I have been to 6 different doctors; one of whom was an endo.
The results of these visits:
Ive been told by 5 of the 6 doctors that nothing major is wrong. Almost all of them offered me pde5is, beta blockers, antidepressants and the list goes on. Only 1 offered me hrt (i asked for a serm, but he gave me cream instead; no ai, no hcg)
i took what i could get.
That doctor effed me over even further - refusing to renew my script a month later.

What i want is to be asymptomatic.... the blast i did was out of sheer frustration... and in a desperate bid to achieve some sort of normality.

i appreciate your well wishes.... It looks like im off to find doctor number 7

[Vettester]

As Kel stated, taking the Clomid has hyper stimulated your HPTA. Once your endogenous production is back on track and you are no longer administering a SERM, your LH and FSH values should balance out, as your HPTA will react and secrete as needed based on the negative loop function it has with the testis and natural test production.

If for some reason your LH and FSH values remain high after being clear of SERMs, then you need to have an exam/MRI. Run labs 4 to 6 weeks after the PCT is complete to see what direction this is going.

[jimmyinkedup]

Ok well I'm in fact a bit confused with your results.

If your blood was drawn the day after your last injection, then serum testosterone would still be considerably elevated and shuts everything down, even though as a TRT patient, you should already be shut down. The pituitary should not be secreting gonadotropins at those levels. Clomid will attempt to stimulate the activity but suppression from exo test easily overpowers any effects clomid has in this department (It should!). I mean, this is the very reason we don't take Clomid during cycles, because it generally does not work with the presence of exo test. So I'm surprised by your numbers and I think they're unique.

Are you using UGL testosterone? Your gear could be bunk.

Good ctach I missed this .....

[20YO]

vettester; the issue is my pituitary was 'hyperstimulated' whilst injecting testosterone. it would appear as though my natty production has well and truly returned. the rate at which it has returned and the circumstances under which it has returned, make for a unique case.

i think i might stick to clomid 20/day, and get some bloods sooner rather than later... followed by a pituitary mri.

thanks for your feedback so far guys