Nebido results (includes blood work)

[FakeLove]

From time to time people seem to be interested about Nebido, how fast you can feel the effects etc. I now have had two injections and since I have some blood work available I thought I would share them to you who are interested. I was able to find some studies of undecanoate and based on them it should reach its peak around 10 days after the injection. Based on my experience it does.

18 days after the first injection:

- TT 30 nmol/l (10-38)
- FreeT 589 pmol/l (200-500)
- SHBG 17 (10-57)
- E2 0,16 nmol/l (<0,15) on Anastrozole 0,25mg e3d

Loading injection 6 weeks after the first one, blood work 11 days after:

- TT 47 nmol/l (10-38)
- FreeT 937 pmol/l (200-500)
- SHBG 16 (10-57)
- E2 0,19 nmol/l (<0,15) on Anastrozole 0,25mg eod (+ zinc 40mg / day, been on it for a month)

Trough values 8 weeks after second Nebido:

- TT 12 nmol/l (10-38)
- FreeT 204 pmol/l (200-500)
- SHBG 26 (10-57) - Increased, why?
- E2 0,14 nmol/l (<0,15) on zero Anastrozole (surprisingly high compared to the T figures)
- Hematocrit 0,5 (0,39-0,5) - Before trt 0,45
- Hemoglobin 170 g/l (134-167) - Before trt 150 g/l

I think in my case the loading shot came too fast, even though it is a standard protocol. Next one is scheduled in eight weeks and the bloods will be drawn just before it. The final injection frequency will be decided based on those values. Though I might delay the injection a week or two, because it might be too early again. Splitting the coming injections in four is also under my consideration. I guess this all in all would be easier if I just would learn to inject myself. It could help to control the whole thing better and saves a few bucks too.

As you can see, I'm converting much E2 and I can tell you it's frustrating to adjust. Now I'm standing at two days after the last blood work and balancing around 0,5mg eod / 0,5mg ed. I also noticed that a quick front load results good if you're high already. Upped the dose once with a 1mg and then continued with a 0,5mg. E2 recheck in a week. Costs a bit, but helps to get on track.

So, I've now found myself to be in a situation what I've been reading about - E2 is tricky to control. I've reached the sweet spots occasionally, but these peaks seem to surprise me. When I'm in the sweet spot, it's all good. When I'm not, nothing is good. It makes the biggest difference of how I feel.

Recognising being high or low is also a pain in the ass. I guess I should crash it once to understand better

[Rjay]

Just goes to show E2 is just as powerful in effecting how you feel as testosterone! Those are some pretty high Free t levels especially the second one..no wonder your e2 is high

[FakeLove]

Yes, that's very true. And like said, it's tricky to stay in the sweet spot. I seem to be a high responder to Nebido and obviously these levels are too high for trt purposes, especially the Free T. I wasn't expecting this based on the experiences I've been mostly reading about. I need to sort it out, but probably it will be 4ml in every 10 to 12 weeks, which I will split into 10 injections. It sucks to inject more often, but I can't stand these peaks either. It's too much of a roller coaster to handle mentally. Not to mention what this is doing to my hematocrit.

Today I had the blood work and the E2 was 0,07 nmol/l (<0,15), which equals 11,8 pg/ml. I actually decided to stay on 0,75mg of Anastrozole every day, after topping with a 1mg on Monday. So it was 1mg on Monday and 0,75mg tuesday, wednesday and thursday. I figured that since I was high already at 0,25mg eod, I would make a little test with myself. What comes to Anastrozole blood plasma levels, it brought me a bit over of 0,5mg ed steady blood plasma levels (a rough calculation). So I guess I'm not that high responder to Anastrozole.

At 0,07 nmol/l I feel like shit. Didn't sleep last night at all (same as it was at 0,19) and I'm still running overdrive, low libido, poor erections (I get it up with the pills though), weird pains all around, face feels like it's glowing, I'm super worried about stuff etc. But still I was surprised it wasn't lower than that.

So, now I've made the test myself how does it feel to be low, event though haven't totally crashed yet. And the gap to the sweet spot ain't even large. And yes, the symptoms are much alike being high. For me, without the labs, there's no way to tell which is it - high or low. I guess the things that differ are these weird pains all around and still existing morning wood. Also, it's much easier to shoot the load. Other than that, I don't recognise any difference. Perhaps there's less pressure in lower abdomen when urinating. But usually mentioned joint pains don't exist, no dry skin, no fatigue. While being high, I don't get often mentioned bloating either. I'm super prone to gyno though, so that's what I'm truly worried about and it was one of the reasons I decided to take it safe.

Any suggestions how to continue? I was thinking to let this be a day or two and then continue with 0,5mg ed.

By the way, does the steady Anastrozole blood plasma level eliminate the E2 with the same rate all the time if the test input stays the same? Or would my E2 go even lower if I continue to keep this same roughly calculated level?

[kelkel]

What is your approx body fat percentage?

[FakeLove]

My body fat percentage is quite precisely 20.

Don't know if it matters, but I was diagnosed with a primary hypogonadism. LH very close to the max and TT & Free T close to low end of the range, measured three times. Other values looked like this:

- E2 0,1 nmol/l (<0,15)
- TSH 1,6 mU/I (0,4-4,5)
- Free T4 19,6 pmol/l (9-21)
- Free T3 6,5 pmol/l (3,5-6,5)
- PRL 152 mU/I (<300)
- Cortisol 560 nmol/l (150-650) / blood drawn early morning

[optionsdude]

Been away from the forum for a while is Nebido now being used in the states?

[kelkel]

Been away from the forum for a while is Nebido now being used in the states?

Yep, earlier last year under the name "Aveed" with a lesser dosing protocol than across the pond. 750mg's instead of 1000.

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/D.../UCM389149.pdf

[optionsdude]

Thanks Kel, OP didn't mean to hijack your thread. I'm going to talk with my md about this on my next visit.

[FakeLove]

Well I did as I thought I would be doing. I stayed off from AI for one day and then continued 0,5mg ed. It was too much still, but seems that when test input stays the same also steady AI dosage eliminates E2 more or less at the same rate. Good to know if nothing else. E2 after a week was 10 pg/mL which equals 0,06 nmol/l (<0,15).

Next will try the same, but cut it down to 0,25mg ed. Hopefully that would bring me to 17pg/mL. Next blood is scheduled in 5 weeks, so I'll then also know the 8 week trough values of my Nebido treatment.

[Juced_porkchop]

thanks for the thread!!
test undec is likely what I will use long term in the coming years. a monthly shot is great vs. 1-2 a week. for cycles its a bit crappy IMO, but as a base and/or hrt its great. ill just add teste in for cycles : P

anyway good luck op!!! : )

[marcus300]

Nebido has been amazing for me 1000mgs every 11 weeks

[OingoBoingo]

FakeLove,

Can you feel when your E2 levels are rising? If so, why not just take Anastrozole 0.25mg when needed?

As my E2 levels start to rise, I notice flushing around the neck and upper chest, followed by night sweats, then bacne, and if I let it go, water retention and nipple irritation follows. Now, as soon as I notice the flushing, I take Anastrozole 0.25mg, and the symptoms are gone (in my case) in 6 to 11 hours (seemingly depending on what's in my belly).

Charting things on a calendar, I found that I initially took Anastrozole 0.25mg (when symptoms were noticed) fairly regularly, on average every 6 days (sometimes 5 or 7). Over the past 6 months, the frequency has slowed to on average every 8 days. Taking Proviron (Provironum) periodically will extend the frequency further.

[FakeLove]

Nebido has been amazing for me 1000mgs every 11 weeks

Yeah, I've been reading your posts. I'm curious and I don't remember from them that have you been checking what levels you reach peak vs. trough? Or did you adjust the 11 weeks based on the feeling only?

I'm sure I will be happy with this as well after my doc is able to find right frequency to shoot.

[FakeLove]

FakeLove,

Can you feel when your E2 levels are rising? If so, why not just take Anastrozole 0.25mg when needed?

As my E2 levels start to rise, I notice flushing around the neck and upper chest, followed by night sweats, then bacne, and if I let it go, water retention and nipple irritation follows. Now, as soon as I notice the flushing, I take Anastrozole 0.25mg, and the symptoms are gone (in my case) in 6 to 11 hours (seemingly depending on what's in my belly).

Charting things on a calendar, I found that I initially took Anastrozole 0.25mg (when symptoms were noticed) fairly regularly, on average every 6 days (sometimes 5 or 7). Over the past 6 months, the frequency has slowed to on average every 8 days. Taking Proviron (Provironum) periodically will extend the frequency further.

That might work if you don't need AI that much. I keep a diary of my doses vs. symptoms. Yes, I can always feel something, but the symptoms are so all around. Making it more difficult, they fluctuate from hour to hour. And it's tricky to evaluate if it's high E2 or low E2 when I'm on Anastrozole already.

Last time, when I was standing at 32 pg/mL I was quite sure that I actually would have been low, being already on Anastrozole 0,25mg eod. Face felt warm, slight night sweat, insomnia, no morning wood, soft erections, dry scalp etc. When I saw the results I was quite amazed. It felt like this is going to be impossible and I even went that far that I thought would there be a way to live without trt, could I bare the pre trt symptoms.

When I eventually went low, it was so similar that it felt even more desperate. Do I need to run E2 labs like every week to figure this out?

Now, being on 0,25mg ed it feels already a bit better. E2 might still be a bit too low, but I don't anymore trust my own judgement at all. Been wrong now every time. At this point it seems that the most reliable measurements are that being too low I still got the morning wood and eventually tight scrotum (that one variates from hour to hour as well...). Other than that it's impossible to say which is it.

I literally hate E2.

[marcus300]

Yeah, I've been reading your posts. I'm curious and I don't remember from them that have you been checking what levels you reach peak vs. trough? Or did you adjust the 11 weeks based on the feeling only?

I'm sure I will be happy with this as well after my doc is able to find right frequency to shoot.

I felt a drop off around week 10 so my endo change my protocol to 11, I stay around the 600 no matter when I have blood work took. I take no AI because my E is fine

[OingoBoingo]

I felt a drop off around week 10 so my endo change my protocol to 11, I stay around the 600 no matter when I have blood work took. I take no AI because my E is fine

What's the range at your lab?

[marcus300]

What's the range at your lab?

I think my last lot had a range of 9-25nmol/l

[OingoBoingo]

That might work if you don't need AI that much. I keep a diary of my doses vs. symptoms. Yes, I can always feel something, but the symptoms are so all around. Making it more difficult, they fluctuate from hour to hour. And it's tricky to evaluate if it's high E2 or low E2 when I'm on Anastrozole already.

Last time, when I was standing at 32 pg/mL I was quite sure that I actually would have been low, being already on Anastrozole 0,25mg eod. Face felt warm, slight night sweat, insomnia, no morning wood, soft erections, dry scalp etc. When I saw the results I was quite amazed. It felt like this is going to be impossible and I even went that far that I thought would there be a way to live without trt, could I bare the pre trt symptoms.

When I eventually went low, it was so similar that it felt even more desperate. Do I need to run E2 labs like every week to figure this out?

Now, being on 0,25mg ed it feels already a bit better. E2 might still be a bit too low, but I don't anymore trust my own judgement at all. Been wrong now every time. At this point it seems that the most reliable measurements are that being too low I still got the morning wood and eventually tight scrotum (that one variates from hour to hour as well...). Other than that it's impossible to say which is it.

I literally hate E2.

Don't worry about finding a schedule like every x days. I think that's where a lot of guys make a mistake; I know I did. Just let the symptoms be your guide.

Don't take an AI for a couple days, and let your E2 rise until you start to experience symptoms. Then take 0.25mg Anastrozole. That should knock your E2 down for a few days. When symptoms come back, take another dose. Try that for a few cycles, and keep track of when you are taking what. It will help you figure things out.

You can also cut a 0.25mg piece in half to give you 0.125mg pieces if you find that 0.25mg is not enough, or 0.50mg is too much.

Dr. Gordon says guys have E2 problems because they are overdosing on Testosterone. Plain and simple.

The clinic I go to pushes Nebido but I didn't want it because I was concerned about dose control and frequency. If the doc gives you too much, there's nothing you can do but sweat it out; no pun intended.

There are other things that you can do to help manage E2. One important thing is to supplement with Zinc. Dr. Gordon prefers Zinc Citrate. I take 75mg of Zinc per day (30mg with breakfast, 15mg with lunch, and another 30mg about 30 minutes before sleeping), and find that it helps a lot. Another important thing is to watch the alcohol intake; especially beer. I found that only a drink or two would drive my E2 through the roof, and now I abstain (unless I'm on Proviron, but that's another story).

Don't get desperate. Keep your wits about this, and you can crack it!

[OingoBoingo]

I think my last lot had a range of 9-25nmol/l

And you had 600?

[marcus300]

And you had 600?

Yes the last lot I had was. When I first started I was higher but after a year I levelled off at around 600 and all my other levels are balanced. I feel great at 600 and I also maintain good size.

[FakeLove]

Bump! New results (also updated to the first post):

Trough values 8 weeks after second Nebido:

- TT 12 nmol/l (10-38)
- FreeT 204 pmol/l (200-500)
- SHBG 26 (10-57) - Increased, why?
- E2 0,14 nmol/l (<0,15) on zero Anastrozole (surprisingly high compared to the T figures)
- Hematocrit 0,5 (0,39-0,5) - Before trt 0,45
- Hemoglobin 170 g/l (134-167) - Before trt 150 g/l

Quite a drop in eight weeks, while I obviously need to consider donating as well. No morning wood and no spontaneous erections right now which I guess at the moment means low T. Other than that I can't say I would feel low T symptoms as such. Mainly I'm meaning that I'm not tired at all. Which is weird, since I'm now just barely lower than before trt. And before things were quite different.

I was kinda hoping I would be higher at this point. It would have meant longer injection frequency although the trough might increase over the time. I guess I need to try splitting the dose in the meanwhile, hoping it would keep my hematocrit in check.

I have to say that Nebido might take a bit of patience, if you're considering it as an option. At this moment I feel injecting more frequently and getting dialled in faster would be much better than shooting yourself high at first and slowly back to too low.

[FakeLove]

Injection frequency is now 8 weeks and I started to split Nebido. First I took it down to 2ml and three weeks after the jab labs told me:

- Total Testosterone 23 (8.4-28.7)
- No free T, it was messed up by the new lab

Seems to work better and it's more manageable in every way. I already switched to 1ml / 2 weeks and will take some labs when I'm settled. Now I'm quite happy with the protocol. Perhaps this is interesting info to Aveed users as well?

[marcus300]

It takes months to get a stable levels and you really needed to persevere. Doing 2 week injects kind of defeats the object of going with Nebido

[FakeLove]

I see your point. Of course it would be more convenient to jab every 8 to 12 weeks.

Would you suggest that eventually I wouldn't end up being in that roller coaster where I have double the reference max at peak and that my trough would be higher?

I'm quite confident that I'm not the average responder that the study results are showing. I'm more like the one or two percent which is always mentioned in the graph pictures where deviance is mentioned. The long term studies I've seen haven't really been documenting a significant rise in trough values after the second/third jab. And if I'm not able to extend the injection frequency beyond eight weeks, I believe I would always end up too high, which causes many problems in terms of control (mainly E2 and Hematocrit).

Or then it could be that perhaps I'm missing something here?

The only alternative I would have is Sustanon and that definitely would require splitting, meaning even more injections. Being in between the two alternatives, and when reaching low fluctuations in my levels with my current protocol, I don't see it in a way that I would lose the main advantage of Nebido. At least now, when it's nicely in control. But we'll see what the future brings. I consider changing if jabbing every two weeks would become impossible.

[marcus300]

I see your point. Of course it would be more convenient to jab every 8 to 12 weeks.

Would you suggest that eventually I wouldn't end up being in that roller coaster where I have double the reference max at peak and that my trough would be higher?

I'm quite confident that I'm not the average responder that the study results are showing. I'm more like the one or two percent which is always mentioned in the graph pictures where deviance is mentioned. The long term studies I've seen haven't really been documenting a significant rise in trough values after the second/third jab. And if I'm not able to extend the injection frequency beyond eight weeks, I believe I would always end up too high, which causes many problems in terms of control (mainly E2 and Hematocrit).

Or then it could be that perhaps I'm missing something here?

The only alternative I would have is Sustanon and that definitely would require splitting, meaning even more injections. Being in between the two alternatives, and when reaching low fluctuations in my levels with my current protocol, I don't see it in a way that I would lose the main advantage of Nebido. At least now, when it's nicely in control. But we'll see what the future brings. I consider changing if jabbing every two weeks would become impossible.

I would give it at least 10-12 months before going back to the more frequent injection. For some people it does take a few months before it levels off.

[FakeLove]

I appreciate your views. I'm sure there's lots of user experience behind them. However 10-12 months is a long time to struggle in everyday life, while being in a hormonal roller coaster. Especially if you're E2 sensitive.

[marcus300]

I appreciate your views. I'm sure there's lots of user experience behind them. However 10-12 months is a long time to struggle in everyday life, while being in a hormonal roller coaster. Especially if you're E2 sensitive.

I stabilized around the 3rd -4th injection but if its really effecting you and another kind of test treatment would be better for you then go for it. One thing you don't want to do is struggle with everyday life and if your E2 sensitive maybe you should be attacking this issue to get a balance then your TRT protocol may well just drop into place but do what ever it takes to feel normal again

[FakeLove]

I stabilized around the 3rd -4th injection but if its really effecting you and another kind of test treatment would be better for you then go for it. One thing you don't want to do is struggle with everyday life and if your E2 sensitive maybe you should be attacking this issue to get a balance then your TRT protocol may well just drop into place but do what ever it takes to feel normal again

Well, my treatment options are so limited that at the moment I just accept that I'm using a long ester injected more frequently. That does the trick for me in everyday life. I feel much better now and been able to reduce my AI dosage. So it feels like it's now in control, when injecting 1ml at a time. I will check things on paper, but based on how I feel I would guess that with my current protocol I'm peaking close to the range max and that my trough is mid of the range. It's all I was asking for from trt. Thanks for the views Marcus.

[marcus300]

Well, my treatment options are so limited that at the moment I just accept that I'm using a long ester injected more frequently. That does the trick for me in everyday life. I feel much better now and been able to reduce my AI dosage. So it feels like it's now in control, when injecting 1ml at a time. I will check things on paper, but based on how I feel I would guess that with my current protocol I'm peaking close to the range max and that my trough is mid of the range. It's all I was asking for from trt. Thanks for the views Marcus.

If you have found a way to feel normal then go with it, just seems a shame your using Nebido whats suppose to be injected every 10 weeks every 1-2 weeks but we are not all the same even though there have been very long studies done on this product which shows it has a lot more benefits than Test E as in levels and injection frequency but use what works best for you. Feeling normal is no1 so long as your bloods are all in range