Injecting Proviron or Masteron into gyno lump

[Frontpump]

Blows my mind. You guys ever hear of this protocol to get RID of existing gyno? I mean if it's legit, I would be happy to be rid of these tits I've had since puberty.

quoting from another forum:

"Per 1ml so that it could be pinned 3 hours preworkout everyday and still maintain stable blood levels of the two. However this is slightly off topic.

If the mole people on this forum take anything from my posts in this thread, take away this:

If you want to get PREVENT Gyno and estrogenic side effects, run every cycle with 50-100mg Proviron, 200-500mg Masteron, or any other dry form of DHT, primobolan etc. (NOT anadrol).

If you want to get RID of Gyno, take a 31G slin pin and inject 150mg of Masteron or Proviron into the lump. OR inject 500mg Masteron a day until it goes away. Pramipexole is also very useful in the treatment and prevention of Gyno as Prolactin has a significant effect on estrogen's proliferation at breast tissue.

DHT is the best thing to use to combat estrogenic side effects of ANY steroid. SERM's suck. fact.
I would be very impressed if you got Gyno from 2000mg Testosterone run with 500mg Masteron. Unless your Prolactin was high.

You are taking a risk running Tren with anything estrogenic without DHT. Also **** your hair, just shave it off I don't want to hear anyone bitching. "

[Who_Am_I]

Never heard of this, but have heard of plenty injecting pgcl directly into their gyno and having success with it.

[kelkel]

Never heard of this either. Although topically applied DHT creams in conjunction with serms have been effective.
DHT's are not the best thing to combat gyno. Properly dosed AI's are. DHT is weak at best when compared to AI's.

[Frontpump]

Never heard of this either. Although topically applied DHT creams in conjunction with serms have been effective.
DHT's are not the best thing to combat gyno. Properly dosed AI's are. DHT is weak at best when compared to AI's.

This guys whole angle says that gyno is a result of, not e2 directly, but the ratio of e2 to DHT.

An AI would obviously benefit that ratio. Injecting DHT derivatives would also benefit that ratio.

Might this explain why Arnold and the old schooler's didn't get crazy gyno with all that test, and no AI's, because of the dianobol in the mix?

If topical DHT with a serm helps, I don't see why subq at the gland wouldn't be at least equally effective.

So then how about this Trifecta:
AI, Serms, Topical OR subq dht's.

[gold43]

We are not in the golden age of bodybuilding anymore. We have come a long way. You want to prevent gyno, dial in your AI to control E2 effectively.

[kelkel]

Of course it has to do with ratio's. And ratio's can and will change based on many factors. E2, dht shbg, etc will all change based on what your injecting or simply based on age. I'd need to see more info to place the onus directly on dht though. Yes, dht's would help but as stated, they're weak compared to AI's.

No clue about the Arnold Era but it's an interesting hypothesis. They also didn't run today's doses nor have access to the variety of items available today. Injecting a dht directly into the gland may work, I just never heard of anyone doing it. Doesn't sound fun for sure.

[NACH3]

Of course it has to do with ratio's. And ratio's can and will change based on many factors. E2, dht shbg, etc will all change based on what your injecting or simply based on age. I'd need to see more info to place the onus directly on dht though. Yes, dht's would help but as stated, they're weak compared to AI's.

No clue about the Arnold Era but it's an interesting hypothesis. They also didn't run today's doses nor have access to the variety of items available today. Injecting a dht directly into the gland may work, I just never heard of anyone doing it. Doesn't sound fun for sure.

Although interesting and might work - I know it's gotta be painful lol - I agree that AI's are the way to go! No doubt... If you have gyno(or a flare up) start on a SERM(Nolva 20mgs ed) or Ralox for reversal - but NOLVA works great...

Those compounds have anti E capabilities but none the likes of an AI!

[Buster Brown]

I would just stick with the prescribed SERMS. That protocol sounds like witchcraft!

[kelkel]

Another point in favor of the dht gel's / creams is that the skin will act as the reservoir causing a slower dispersion, thus arguably more effective.

[Frontpump]

I hear ya guys. Obviously much has been learned since the 70's. It was just an interesting find to me, and it appears that you guys haven't heard of it, and are more prone to stick with what you know/find familiar. I'm not debating the effectiveness of AI's and SERMS, I think we can all agree those work. I'm just wondering if this works too.

More data on the DHT's role in gyno would certainly be helpful.

Now whether I'll decide to inject proviron and pop a serm while running AI's......is yet to be seen

Haha kidding. Kind of. I'll just be looking into it further for sure.

[kelkel]

Frontpump I don't consider us stuck in old dogma, but I do consider us relatively current when it comes to the scientific aspect of this sport. Many times it's BB-ers that break new ground when it comes to science and the medical community then follows suit. It is an interesting concept and I would be interested in reading more if you have it.

[Buster Brown]

I hear ya guys. Obviously much has been learned since the 70's. It was just an interesting find to me, and it appears that you guys haven't heard of it, and are more prone to stick with what you know/find familiar. I'm not debating the effectiveness of AI's and SERMS, I think we can all agree those work. I'm just wondering if this works too. More data on the DHT's role in gyno would certainly be helpful. Now whether I'll decide to inject proviron and pop a serm while running AI's......is yet to be seen Haha kidding. Kind of. I'll just be looking into it further for sure.

A lot of protocols we follow are from what Kel described and what the top doctors on the field are doing ATM. Not to make light of your research or if there is any credibility in it but it most likely would have become mainstream and currently used.

[Ashop]

I would just stick with the prescribed SERMS. That protocol sounds like witchcraft!

Agreed...I call BS on that method myself.

[kelkel]

Agreed...I call BS on that method myself.

Especially large volume injections with a slin pin.

[Frontpump]

Frontpump I don't consider us stuck in old dogma, but I do consider us relatively current when it comes to the scientific aspect of this sport. Many times it's BB-ers that break new ground when it comes to science and the medical community then follows suit. It is an interesting concept and I would be interested in reading more if you have it.

I don't think there's any old dogma either. I'm fairly amazed actually at the depth of knowledge that goes into application in the field.

I do just think that sometimes things that also work go unnoticed, or slip through the cracks, or become suppressed by popular methodology- especially if that popular methodology is built on reliable science, as in this case.

And here I am, once considered it, now considering it less as a result of my peer's response. You see what I mean. Group think. That's how it all washes out.

Anyway, I'll do more digging and report back if I find anything useful. A link between E2 and DHT doesn't seem far off. IMO it appears that AI and SERM mechanics would actually support the hypothesis. Best protocol all things considered? That's another thread.

[kelkel]

The effects of injected testosterone dose and age on the conversion of testosterone to estradiol and dihydrotestosterone in young and older men. - PubMed - NCBI

Thought I posted this in this thread. Must have been a different one...

[Frontpump]

The effects of injected testosterone dose and age on the conversion of testosterone to estradiol and dihydrotestosterone in young and older men. - PubMed - NCBI

Thought I posted this in this thread. Must have been a different one...

Excellent read.

"The in vivo Km values were estimated to be 1.83 nm for aromatase and 3.35 nm for 5alpha-reductase, independent of age."

They talked about ratios, but only E2:T and DHT:T, not DHT:E2 ratios. DHT:E2 would be 3.35/1.83= 1.83

If you used an AI to cut aromatization in half, then the ratio of DHT:E2 would be 3.35/.91= 3.68. This leads to gyno prevention/reduction.
If you injected DHT or derivatives, to increase DHT by 50%, then the ratio of DHT:E2 = 5.025/1.83 = 2.74 This has been proposed to lead to gyno prevention/removal.

So you see my point. The avenues are different, but the destinations, thereby, the direction of change in hormonal results, are the same.

Thoughts:
-I could be missing some details. Ears are wide open.
-Locally injecting DHT into the breast lump- can DHT work locally? or does it play by the same rules of others, needing to pass the liver first and travel the blood?
-Assuming aromatization to be at exactly 50%, or injecting DHT to exactly double, is obviously for exploring the topic only. No way to be that precise.
-Their math seems unusually round, it's normally not the case right? To say that aromatization occurs at exactly half the conversion to DHT? That is what their numbers say.

In all I'm just demonstrating my point of curiosity. I haven't proved anything right, but this sort of analysis does support what the gentlemen from the other board proposed.

So who wants to try it out first?

[Frontpump]

Worth pointing others to, and generally excellent read and it has citations!

Before I post. Is there any way to obtain DHT? Most injectable are DHT derivatives. Where do you find 100% DHT topicals or injectables? Still a newb.

The link:
16 Ways to Fight Gynecomastia

The quotes:
"1. Your naturally occurring 5a-reduced metabolites are your friends in preventing and reversing gyno. 5a-reduced metabolites include androsterone, androstanedione, androstanediol and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) as the most powerful 5a-reduced hormone. These hormones help prevent gyno by lowering estrogen and blocking the effect of estrogen at the hormone receptor. (1-8) Unless you have serious androgen related hair loss you want to keep your 5a-reduced metabolites relatively high to avoid gyno.

Methods for increasing 5a-reduced metabolites (DHT) are listed in preferred order –

Topical testosterone applied to the scrotum will rapidly increase DHT levels with minimal estrogen conversion. (for more information on topical steroids, read this article)
Use a DHT pro-hormone such as androsterone, found in AndroHard. This will raise DHT with zero risk of estrogen conversion.
Injectable testosterone along with an AI to prevent excessive estrogen conversion.
High dose oral 4-DHEA or DHEA along with an AI to prevent excessive estrogen conversion.
2. If you are concerned about gyno, avoid finesteride at all costs. It lowers all 5a-reduced metabolites to undesirable levels and has an extremely long half-life which continues to suppress DHT levels long after discontinuing the drug. (9) Progesterone would be a better anti-DHT alternative if you are concerned with hair loss. Plus, progesterone can clear the system within 24hrs making a mistake in dosing much less risky.

3. Almost all sources of gyno can be linked back to having insufficient levels of 5a-reduced metabolites in the body. In theory, any amount of estrogen/progesterone can be blocked by sufficient DHT. (10-14) Also, high DHT and enlargement of the prostate is a myth, however high estrogen and high DHT can lead to an inflamed prostate, so you want to at least make an effort to keep estrogen in a normal range. (14)

4. Trenbolone, TREN, Nandrolone can cause gyno because they lack a potent 5a-reduced metabolite (dihydronandrolone is weaker than dihydrotestosterone). (15) If you are worried about gyno from progestational steroids you should consider boosting your 5a-reduced metabolites during the cycle (mentioned above). This can avoid most if not all of the gyno problems associated with progestational hormones. I should mention here that aromatase inhibitors alone (AI’s) will not help prevent gyno from progestational compounds. It is the antagonistic action of 5a-reduced hormones that is required.

5. Nothing is going to antagonize estrogen at the estrogen receptor (ER) better than actual DHT. While DHT derivatives or analogs such as Anavar, Winstrol, Masteron, Epistane, Superdrone, ect may be 5a-reduced, they cannot convert to actual DHT and thus cannot directly inhibit gyno at the receptor level (since they lack the ultra-high binding affinity for the AR that true DHT possesses). (16)

6. Natural anti-estrogens (resveratrol, chrysin, I3C, DIM, ect) are great for PCT and can stimulate the HPTA and manage healthy estrogen metabolism, but they are not strong enough to prevent aromatization from high doses of aromatizing steroids. Don’t rely on these to prevent gyno during a cycle.

7. Reducing prolactin will reduce the overall stimulation on mammary growth. Suppressing prolactin is useful as a temporary method to help slow or stop gyno growth. However, continuing anti-prolactin treatment is not recommended to be continued beyond 8 weeks. Methods of suppressing prolactin include –

Vitex at 460mg/day
Vitamin B6 at 200-400mg/day
Mucuna Pruriens (15%-20% L-Dopa) 4-6g/day
Increasing DHT may also lower prolactin release (17)
8. Don’t fiddle with your nipples. This increases prolactin release which can make gyno worse.

9. IGF-1, GH, insulin and prolactin are all potent growth factors in gyno growth. Limiting these hormones will reduce the likelihood of experiencing gyno symptoms. “Bulking” (aka., eating-a-****load-of-everything) will increase most of the growth factors listed above. Cutting calories (especially carbohydrates) will suppress insulin and IGF-1 therefore reducing the overall stimulatory effect on mammary growth. Ketogenic diet = less risk of gyno.

10. Body fat (adipose tissue) is the main site for androgens to convert to estrogens. Therefore, being overweight or having high body fat increases your gyno risk. This is another good reason to go on a cutting cycle if you are gyno prone. Reducing body fat will lower your rate of estrogen conversion from aromatizing steroids. (18)

11. Caffeine consumption can inhibit clearance of estrogen from the liver by competing for the P-450 oxidase system. Avoid caffeine if you are concerned about high estrogen levels.

12. Avoid supplements containing forskolin if concerned about gyno. Forskolin increases aromatase activity via cAMP modulation and can increase formation of estrogen. (23,24)

13. Increasing fiber intake (both soluble and insoluble) can enhance clearance of estrogens from the intestines. Research shows that increasing fiber intake in humans can reduce estrogen levels by up to 22%. (19)

14. Reducing estrogen below the normal range (such as over dosing arimidex, letrozol, aromasin or formestane) can eventually reduce SHBG levels, thus allowing more estrogen to freely circulate (by offsetting it from SHBG). Higher levels of freely circulating estrogen can amplify breast tissue growth (20). SHBG also appears to have anti-estrogenic effects at the cell receptor level. (21, 22) Avoiding over suppression of SHBG will reduce your gyno risk.

15. Don’t be afraid to lower the dose mid cycle. People have a tendency to panic at the first sign of gyno and drop everything. Generally, just lowering the dose of the afflicting steroid can offer gyno relief within 4-5 days.

16. Save SERM’s as your last resort against gyno. You do not need a SERM (tormifene, clomid or nolva) to avoid gyno from a properly planned cycle. If you are still having gyno problems after following the above points, consider the fact that you have a poorly planned cycle and you need to revaluate the compounds you have chosen.



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