Low testo treatment - your thoughts?

[spwob]

EDIT on Sep 11: Please scroll down to post 28 and skip the posts 1-27

Hallo,

sorry for my bad English
And sorry for not being a massive steroid abuser (my posts got geleted somewhere else because I want a LOW testo treatment). I hope I get some help here anyway.

I like to introduce myself first: 27,male,185cm,79kg. I do stamina training, no weight training.

I suffer from my low testo levels and I like to start a low testo replacement treatment for a better well-being.
Arimidex should held to lower Estradiol to 30 pg/ml.
Reasons for HCG: LH stimulatant to prevent infertility and testicle shrinkage

Supplementation:
Testo E 100mg e5d + HCG 500IU e3d + Arimidex 0,25mg e3d

To buy:
Testo E
Zinc
Tamox
Clomid
Arimidex
HCG

my questions?
- Whats datas do I have to check up first? I guess Testosteron-, E2, Cortisol- LH- and FSH-levels are enough ??
- Why is Tamox necessary as I only use testo 20mg/day and Arimidex ?
- When exactly does the endogenous testosterone production stop?

Thank you so much!

[hammerheart]

What are your levels?

Both tamoxifen and clomid are unnecessary.

[Mr.BB]

Low testosterone treatment is not for who wants it, it is to who needs it.

Whats the point of getting treatment if you dont need it??? Just a waste of your own health.

Now, do you need it? Is your total T low? Have you been diagnosed why?

At your age is not normal to have low T, dont take me the wrong way, if you need it you sure should go for it, but get properly diagnosed for.

[spwob]

Both tamoxifen and clomid are unnecessary.

Thanks for your thoughts. May I ask, why I don't need Tamox and Clomid?
I just guess, I don't need Tamox because I already have Arimidex (i.e. to avoid gyno) and I don't need Clomid, because I won't discontinue t-treatment, but use testosteron forever ??

Now, do you need it? Is your total T low? Have you been diagnosed why?

I am 1000% sure to suffer from low T-levels, not acute, but for my lifetime (mainly cause of low self confidence, low sex drive, unassertiveness etc), but I haven't had a diagnosis yet. Yes hate me for that!

Next time I ask 3 different doctors to get 5 different diagnosis first.

I see, you don't really want to answer my 3 questions. Bad thing is, the doctor cannot either, because he don't really know. Doctor can not, forum members want not!

[Mr.BB]

I am 1000% sure to suffer from low T-levels, not acute, but for my lifetime (mainly cause of low self confidence, low sex drive, unassertiveness etc), but I haven't had a diagnosis yet. Yes hate me for that!

Next time I ask 3 different doctors to get 5 different diagnosis first.

I see, you don't really want to answer my 3 questions. Bad thing is, the doctor cannot either, because he don't really know. Doctor can not, forum members want not!

I can answer you questions if you think its so important
-Look here for initial bloodwork, guessing you are outside US, labs in europe ussually have no panels you need to translate'em to individual tests (google is your firend here)
-Tamoxifene is not needed in TRT, clomid is also useless if you are injecting test (clomid only can be a form of TRT)
-From the day you inject your 1st pin.

Just adding that if your testosterone levels are normal you wont get any improvement on the symptoms described.

Also, from your reply, didnt see any hint of low self confidence

[hammerheart]

Thanks for your thoughts. May I ask, why I don't need Tamox and Clomid?
I just guess, I don't need Tamox because I already have Arimidex (i.e. to avoid gyno) and I don't need Clomid, because I won't discontinue t-treatment, but use testosteron forever ??


I am 1000% sure to suffer from low T-levels, not acute, but for my lifetime (mainly cause of low self confidence, low sex drive, unassertiveness etc), but I haven't had a diagnosis yet. Yes hate me for that!

Next time I ask 3 different doctors to get 5 different diagnosis first.

I see, you don't really want to answer my 3 questions. Bad thing is, the doctor cannot either, because he don't really know. Doctor can not, forum members want not!

Nope you can't be sure. Any symptom you listed is rather suggestive of a depressive and/or anxiety disorder.


Get tested if you want to, the initial bloodwork comprise CBC, CMP, Total T, FSH, LH, PRL, SHBG, E2.

[spwob]

Hello,

I am myself quite unsure whether to start a TRT or not.
I like to try the very first TRT for less than half a year. Maybe forever if it really does the desired improvements in mood, self-confidence, sexuality. Yes, I am just 27y and already thinking about doing a TRT. I feel so weird.

The most I fear is the time after stopping/discontinuing TRT. I heard it's horrible and it takes 6-10 month to recover.

-Tamoxifene is not needed in TRT, clomid is also useless if you are injecting test (clomid only can be a form of TRT)

Sorry, I still don't understand. In my country they say: "Never start a TRT before you own Tamoxifene and Clomid. Not just ordered, you must own it".

Just in case of a gynecomastia that builds up (due to high e2-levels) Tamox stops growing. As far as I am able to describe: T aromatizes to estrogen. Estrogen causes gynecomastia. The ingredient in Tamox is a weak acting form of estrogen. It binds on the estrogen-receptor to avoid strong active estrogen to occupy the receptor and become active.
Is Tamox really unnecessary? What should I do if I start to get gynecomastia?

Concerning Clomid:
After stopping TRT (2 weeks after the last injection) the testo-levels are low bottom.
I heard it's necessary after TRT to stimulate the endogenous testosterone production with Clomid.
I really don't know what will happen if Clomid is not taken after TRT.
Does the endogenous testosterone production start automatically with delay after TRT?

What are your thoughts reffering Tamox to avoid gynecomastia and Clomid to recover after TRT?

[Mr.BB]

TRT means testosterone replacement therapy, so the dosage is just suppose to replace what your body should produce naturally, which for some reason (hypothyroidism, testicular trauma or cancer, pituitary tumor, steroid induced hypogonadism, etc) is not able to.

TRT dosage will not induce gynocomastia, only bodybuilding dosage will do that if estrogen is not managed, so no need for tamoxifen citrate.

You are correct in saying that clomid is used to help restart production after a steroid bodybuilding cycle, but in TRT there is no restarting, no need for clomid. If you need TRT it is for life, unless you fix the underlying problem causing the hypogonadism and are able to resume natural production.

I think you are confusing bodybuilding cycle with TRT, completely different things.

Which country are you in? In europe if you are hypogonadal men requiring TRT you will be prescribed nebido, which is testosterone with undecanoate ester and only need to inject every 10-14 weeks.

[spwob]

I thought TRT means TestosteRone Therapy.
I don't plan to push my muscles with testosterone, I just want to experience the positive psychological effects (with 20mg/day only), but for less than half a year only, at first. After that I plan to stop the testo treatment.

I am from Germany, it's really difficult to find a doctor that supports a TRT for a 27y young guy.

There are loads of informations and testo-treatment-plans on the internet. Some really confusing as Testo will be combined with Clomid and HCG at the same time.

Is it ok, if I do this ?? :

Supplementation:
Testo E 100mg e5d + HCG 500IU e3d + Arimidex 0,25mg e3d + Zinc 25mg e1d
Google search: "best practices in low testosterone treatment" (I cannot copy URLs)

10 days after the last testo injection Clomid (1.day 200mg - 2.day 150mg - 3.day 100 mg - after 3.day 50mg for a one month period)
Or can I skip Clomid if using HCG within the treatment.

I am very thankful for any suggestion.

P.S. Some highly recommend not to take HCG. What do you think about HCG combined ?

[hammerheart]

Do bloods first.

[spwob]

Do bloods first.

Oh bizzarro, your post helps so much. In erery community there is somebody that sabotages a treat. Damn, how does this spam help???????
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[Mr.BB]

Any proper doctor will only support if you have low testosterone, and you need bloodwork first to check for it.

Kinda guessed you were in germany, if you do have low testosterone a doctor in germany will prescribe nebido, not test e.

Most testosterone plans on internet are from US clinics which offer TRT at very high monthly fees. If you need testosterone replacement it will be free in germany.

Just be clear that its not supplementation, it is replacement, when injecting testosterone your natural production in testicles is shutdown, no way around this.

[hammerheart]

Oh bizzarro, your post helps so much. In erery community there is somebody that sabotages a treat. Damn, how does this spam help???????
???????
???????
???????
???????
???????
???????
???????

Sorry I'm not going to support your ridiculous claim you have low t basing on some stupid assumptions, try hitting the local knitting club for that.

TRT isn't even that taboo in Germany, stop bitching about "no one will prescribe me T", without having even tried (or the issue itself, for that sake LOL), it's void of reason and rather suggestive of rejection sensitivity (ring a bell?).


Do you want me to repeat it again? Do bloodwork.

[macmathews]

Sorry I'm not going to support your ridiculous claim you have low t basing on some stupid assumptions, try hitting the local knitting club for that.

TRT isn't even that taboo in Germany, stop bitching about "no one will prescribe me T", without having even tried (or the issue itself, for that sake LOL), it's void of reason and rather suggestive of rejection sensitivity (ring a bell?).


Do you want me to repeat it again? Do bloodwork.

Tough love

[Scorpion0922]

OP, you may be frustrated with what you have going on but these guys are trying to help you. From you 1st post you've had f-ing chip on your shoulder. Try losing the attitude if you want help.

Maybe that's why your posts were deleted on the other board.

[spwob]

I have to apologize for my rough tone. Sorry! I am a bit frustrated.

For several weeks I try to understand the topic: TRT/testosterone substitution.

I like to understand what I have to do, if I quit the TRT after 3 weeks.
I like to understand what I have to do, if gynecomastia is present.

I want to fully understand this all, before 3 different doctors give me 5 different diagnosises and 8 different recommendations. I cannot trust them!

There are loads of posts on the web that describes how doctors made a big mess when it comes to TRT, e.g.
- by recommending 250mg testosterone enanthat e21d for a TRT. (t-levels are like a roller coaster).
- by not discontinuing a long lasting therapy with high levels of testosterone, above 240mg/week (result: gynecomastia).
If requested, I provide you the URLs to these posts.

I am definitely not a hypochondriac, but don't want to end up as doctor's victim.


Thousands of people do TRT, but on the web there are totally different plans for a TRT. Why should my plan differ, if my testosterone levels are below average?

Why am I not yet allowed to fully enquire? Just because of a missing diagnosis?

[Mr.BB]

You went to 3 doctors, and havent done any bloodwork??

[hammerheart]

1. I like to understand what I have to do, if I quit the TRT after 3 weeks.
2. I like to understand what I have to do, if gynecomastia is present.

3. Thousands of people do TRT, but on the web there are totally different plans for a TRT. Why should my plan differ, if my testosterone levels are below average?

4. Why am I not yet allowed to fully enquire? Just because of a missing diagnosis?

1: Why on earth would you quit TRT after weeks? That's nonsense. It needs much more that that to start working.

2: if you develop actual gyno, which is rare, tamoxifen might be needed. That usually happens due to very high estradiol (E2). If E2 levels get too high from TRT (E2 is a byproduct of T), AIs can offer some degree of prevention.

3. Once you introduce exogenous T, you own production is suppressed, so whatever you had won't make a difference. It's not like the less you have the more you need.

4. You might ask whatever you want, but TRT requires a diagnosis before it's commenced. Guess what you need for a proper diagnosis? BLOODWORK.

3 different doctors give me 5 different diagnosises

And what would they be?

No one said you're being hypochondriac, why did you even shut it out?

[Back In Black]

Here goes,

Bloodwork
Bloodwork
Bloodwork

3 different doctors have given 5 different prognosis? Means that at least one of those doctors has given you more than one prognosis which is crazy/unbelievable.

I'm sure that you can somehow get private bloodwork done in Germany.

[spwob]

Hello,

Bloodwork
Bloodwork
Bloodwork

This really doesn't help. I and others have a hard time to get the relevant information within this topic!
Maybe I should clarify this: Yes, I will do the bloodwork (before starting a medication/TRT), but I have to understand a lot about TRT before I go to a doctor. Hopefully you understand, that I DON'T WANT TO BECOME DOCTOR'S VICTIM !!! And 3 different doctors give 5 different diagnosises is a joke! > means at least 2 different diagnosises

I did loads of research on Arimidex and HCG.
Testo should be taken at the same time together with Arimidex (due to Arimidex low half time period + both substances are at the same time on its peak level), so a little change in the supplementation is necessary: Testo should be taken e3d if its taken together with Arimidex.

Here in Germany health care will cover the costs if a TRT is necessary. But there are little chance a doctor prescribes Arimidex and HCG. Most doctors won't be able to understand why Arimidex is taken within a TRT !!! I don't really plan to suffer from estrogen (testosterone converts to estrogen).
1.QUESTION: And solution / ideas about this issue??

I have an appointment in 3 weeks at the endocrinologist.
2.QUESTION: Which of these levels should be tested:
a) T total
b) T free
c) E2
d) prolactin
e) LH
f) FSH
g) SHBG
h) DHT
i) T3 free (thyroid)
j) T4 free (thyroid)
k) TSH basal (thyroid)
--- anything else?

Can you please please answers my two questions.

[InternalFire]

you either jab ~100times a year doing every few days injections which is not ideal, or if its legitimate reason try research NEBIDO, its usually ~5 injections a year and keeps test levels high for ~10weeks or so, depending on individual.

TRT is to replace something you do not have, and overdose in TRT (Testosterone) will very likely result in greater T to E conversion, so, if youre planing on your family in the future deposit your fluids in to the sperm bank before you start, lots things to consider, I would recommend looking in NEBIDO.

[Mr.BB]

1. Im kinda repeating myself here, but ok. In germany the trt protocol is with nebido, you dont need arimidex with nebido. If you arrive at any doctor saying you have low t and want trt with no bloodwork to prove it, he will find it fishy and would probably be unwilling to do anything.

2. If you arrive at a doctor saying you want this exact bloodwork he might be upset. He is the doctor let him do his job. You can try to ask for somethings but not every doc will allow this.
Please add to the list CBC, liver panel and PSA

[spwob]

Hello,

I wrote to doctors reception desk and got the price list.
They replied, that they don't know about CBC-levels and CMP-levels.

Does CBC stand for "Complete Blood Count". If yes, this costs 700 USD. Really necessary?

Are levels of
- CBC
- CMP
- liver panel and
- PSA
important to decide the necessity of a TRT?

For a better understanding: Normally health care covers the costs for bloodwork, but therefore I have to talk to the doctor first and explain my concern....
Earliest appointment with the doctor is available mid October. So I pay myself to get the bloodwork as early as possible.

If you arrive at a doctor saying you want this exact bloodwork he might be upset.

Yes, what do you expect, they are doctors. I hope you might understand why - for my concern - it's unnecessary to consult a doctor.

In germany the trt protocol is with nebido, you dont need arimidex with nebido.

So sad, I cannot get NEBIDO without prescription.
Second problem is: I am still too young for a TRT. I assume my testosterone levels are slightly below average of a 27y, maybe -30%, I don't really know.
Health care covers the costs for a TRT, if testosterone-levels are strong below-average.
Conclution: I have to attend doctor regularly to get a prescription for NEBIDO: Pay doctor myself + pay NEBIDO myself.

What is wrong with this budget supplementation (just if bloodwork proofs that TRT is recommended):
Testo E 60mg e3d + HCG 500IU e3d + Arimidex 0,25mg e3d

In this community there are lots of experts.
So, I like to get my bloodwork, upload in this community, hope for your non-committal recommendation. I trust this way 10000x more!

Thank You a lot for your help, I really appreciate it!

[IncreaseMyT]

Edited:

Realized you were not in USA. Sorry we can't help you.

We were going to offer you that same blood test for $199.

[Mr.BB]

Hello,

I wrote to doctors reception desk and got the price list.
They replied, that they don't know about CBC-levels and CMP-levels.

Does CBC stand for "Complete Blood Count". If yes, this costs 700 USD. Really necessary?

Are levels of
- CBC
- CMP
- liver panel and
- PSA
important to decide the necessity of a TRT?

For a better understanding: Normally health care covers the costs for bloodwork, but therefore I have to talk to the doctor first and explain my concern....
Earliest appointment with the doctor is available mid October. So I pay myself to get the bloodwork as early as possible.


Yes, what do you expect, they are doctors. I hope you might understand why - for my concern - it's unnecessary to consult a doctor.


So sad, I cannot get NEBIDO without prescription.
Second problem is: I am still too young for a TRT. I assume my testosterone levels are slightly below average of a 27y, maybe -30%, I don't really know.
Health care covers the costs for a TRT, if testosterone-levels are strong below-average.
Conclution: I have to attend doctor regularly to get a prescription for NEBIDO: Pay doctor myself + pay NEBIDO myself.

What is wrong with this budget supplementation (just if bloodwork proofs that TRT is recommended):
Testo E 60mg e3d + HCG 500IU e3d + Arimidex 0,25mg e3d

In this community there are lots of experts.
So, I like to get my bloodwork, upload in this community, hope for your non-committal recommendation. I trust this way 10000x more!

Thank You a lot for your help, I really appreciate it!

CBC is complete blood count, hemogram is another word for it.
It doesnt cost 500€ unless you are being ripped off, I can get an hemogram for 12€.

Thing is you need to be familiar with the german medical terms and words, translation can be really difficult, I cannot help you there as my german is very weak. Find websites of laboratories in germany, they must have the tests names.

Tests you should have:
Hemogram
ALT/AST
Lipids (cholesterol panel)
TSH
Free T4
Free T3
Prolactin
Estradiol
Free testosterone
Total testosterone
LH
FSH
PSA

[spwob]

Hello,

I just did bloodwork, still waiting for the full results by post, but I asked for providing me at least the testosterone result first.

My total testosterone level is 4.19 ng/ml ONLY

I was sure to have a very low testosterone level.
The average testo level of 50 - 59 year old men is about 4.35 ng/ml.
I am 27 years and have the average testosterone level of a 60 year old men.
I am really unhappy wit the result.

P.S. Within the last 8 months I eat healthy, did sport twice a week each 3h (stamina training), not smoking, drinking 3 liter beer only once a week and in the last 3 weeks I added Vitamin D and Zinc to boost the testosterone levels.

[hammerheart]

drinking 3 liter beer only once a week

Seriously? Only three lt beer at once? Why so self-restrained?

[spwob]

Hello,

I just need your professional advice. I am unsettled about what I am doing. I fear to do something wrong and ruin my health. Please put yourself in my place for a moment.

Basically I don't really have problems with libido or erectile dysfunction.
But just by my everyday-life-feeling I was sure that I've a low t-level for my whole lifetime (depression, less assertiveness, less viral, small testicles). The lab results confirmed my thoughts.
Me in good good condition (I take 3000IU Vitamin D and 75mg Zinc daily since July), I went to do bloodwork on August 23th:
- total testosterone: 4.19 ng/ml
- free testosterone: 0.070 ng/ml
- FSH: 1.9 mu/ml
- LH: 1.9 mu/ml

Same day I decided to start my TRT experiment.
- 1.dose: August 23 - 75mg
- 2.dose: August 26 - 50mg (One day after my 2.dose I drank 4.5l beer. The next day I was sweating heavily (soaking wet). The lab confirmed Estradiol E2 at 78 pg/ml (research: high doses of alcohol turn T > E2). I am going to quit drinking now while I stay on trt.
- 3.dose: August 29 - 50mg
- 4.dose: September 1 - 40mg
- 5.dose: September 3 - 60mg (me travelling, thus the slight change of dosage)
- 6.dose: September 8 - 50mg

Being on trt, it feels like a good drug. I gained self-confidence, my sex drive increased, less erectile dysfunction (basically I had less problems with ED, but now it's perfect), I feel more energetic. Furthermore, I think my depression (that I have since I am 18y) is gone away, less shyness and I feel that my social anxiety decreased a lot. This wimpy myself turned to a normal and happy person.
An increase of motivation while on trt. For 3 years I had wanted to apply for a part time job. Lethargie and the fear of rejection made it impossible to apply. 4 days ago I wrote and sent my applications. I take pleasure in meeting people. I am in life with eyes opened.
My friends, my family, they recently told me that I have changed in a positive way (well balanced, better communication).
It's sounds very enthusiastic. Basically I feel just like a normal person right now, but far better than before.
This feels so good now. I love it!


For side effects I complain higher emotional thoughts (I read T should avoid this, maybe I still have increased E2), increased sweating during daytime and while sleeping (becoming better during the last days), less ejaculate (already since 2.injection).

It's not legal to own these supplements (Testo E, Arimidex, HCG, Clomid, Tamox) without a doctors prescription
I am a passionate traveller, cannot travel with these supplements without a doctors prescription.

An appointment with an endocrinologist is in November. Health care won't cover the costs for a trt as my testo level is just low (but not dangerously low). I want to pay all costs for the trt (supplements and doctor appointments). Awaiting doctors' decision.


Right now I use Testo E only (not yet Arimidex, HCG, Clomid, Tamox). I know that it is totally wrong to experiment with hormones. I did loads of research and am pretty sure to know what to do. In contrast your recommendation to quit insecures me!

I appreciate your thoughts, but I don't understand why I am going to ruin my healty by continuing my trt. It gives me so much right now.
I will surely listen and quit trt, if you explain why my low dosed trt is risky.
If I discontinue, what do you think about Clomid: 1.day 100mg, 2.-7.day 50mg, 8.-30.day 25mg ??

[spwob]

delete

[spwob]

Sorry for pushing this up, but I really want your thoughts about on how much I can destroy as well as your recommendation on the discontinue-scheme