Associate Member
I finished my sust cycle 3 weeks ago, but i put on a little more fat than i would have liked i guess, Ive been cutting for 2 weeks and have lost 10 pounds so far. My question is, i know this is drastic amo9unts of weight, i haven't severely cut calories, is this mainly just water and some fat that i lost? Also is it not a good idea to be cutting during clomid rehabilitation???
Member
"cutting"???? - I assume you're doing cardio (since you didn't cut the calories)Originally Posted by Justarting
Anyway, you can cut calories and do cardio during PCT.
Make sure you're drinking lots of water.
And yes, if you burn more calories than you're eating - you're loosing both fat and water.
Junior Member
NO WAY!! no cut while pct or all your gains...will be lost
Associate Member
I agree with bofia that you should not be cutting right now. You need to be getting in the right amount of calories and protien to maintain the muscle that you just put on. If you go below, you would be more likley to lose some muscle that you just put on.
Associate Member
sserio8usly???? oh shit
i better stop i wonder how much damage i already did, i just started clomid so do you think i did much damage?
AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
If you don't mind losing some of your gains
JohnnyB
Member
You will not lose all your gains.
You will lose some - as with any cutting.
PCT is a perfect time for cutting - you still have enough gear to maintain your gains and water to help burn extra fat.
If you wait till after the PCT - with lower levels you will end up losing more of your gains if you cut the caloric intake (unless you wait several months)
The bottom line - PCT is a great time for cutting - you can even add some clen - it will help you with the PCT and cut burn more calories.
Last edited by Rookiejay; 09-17-2003 at 09:24 PM.
Member
What's your base for this conclusion?
Productive Member
Cutting is bad during pct because your test levels aren't fully recovered, thus protein synthesis is down so you will naturally loose some gains if you cut calories. Your body will not be getting the proper nutrients it needs to maintain.
Wait til your levels are back to normal then cut.
xxxl83
Member
Protein systhesis is still higher than after PCT.
You PCT starts at the begining of the second half life of the last shot (1/2/2) - therefore, you're still loaded with AS and way above your natural levels. However, since it's 1/2/2 and 1/2/2/2/2 at the end of the PCT - that is not enough to make significant gains, but more than enough to maintain.
Your natural levels won't recover fully even after PCT. Even if they do recover they will not be as high as during PCT. To make it worse: your natural mainenance system is not adapted to maintain extra mass you've gained during the cycle.
If you cut the caloric intake after PCT - you will lose much more muscle mass for the reasons stated above.
Therefore, PCT is ideal time for cutting - because you will not lose as much mucsle as if you start cutting after the PCT.
Many people prefer running clen during PCT - it helps the recovery and you don't lose as much of your gains, while cutting during PCT.
Last edited by Rookiejay; 09-17-2003 at 10:13 PM.
Associate Member
dang that rookie knows what hes talking about. Interesting post
bump.
Associate Member
yes but me the middle man has no idea what to bleieve, his thoughts in theory are correct, but thats just theory, other ppl have real world experience, i think ill try to maintain for a few days see if i start decreasing in weight(muscle loss), and then continue cutting if i dont.
AR Vet / Retired
I wouldnt cut during PCT or anytime up to 4wks afterwords. This is the time when your testosterone levels (both endengonous and exengonous) are at their lowest.
Member
I'd agree if he was on Prop.
He's on sus - 3 weeks out - his levels now are probably as high as they were during the cycle -- and will stay high for the next 2 weeks.
End of the PCT and afterwords - I agree - they will be low - but not during PCT.
But --- I give up.............
AR Vet / Retired
The highest amount of gear EVER released from a depot is IMMEDIATELY. From there it decreases exponentially. By that 2nd 3rd wk the levels will be near 0.
Member
If that's the general opinion - I'm not going to argue this anymore.
I don't believe - that 2d or 3d week (which is the beginnig of PCT) the levels are 0. However, just to be sure - we are going to run several test level checks on people who started PCT.
Associate Member
the levels have to be low to none after the 3rd week, if not, why the hell would we start PCT then anyway? The whole reasoning to start PCT after 3 weeks with sus is that the gear is out of your system and your natural levels are at the lowest.
I agree that if you cut during PCT, when your test levels are so low, you are the most catabolic. Yes, you want to cut the fat, and water weight, but while you are in this extremely catabolic state, you will only kiss your gains good bye. My advice is to wait for a while.
Productive Member
If test levels were still high and you were still "loaded" with AS during PCT it wouldn't be PCT you'd still be "ON" cycle. (EX. he's taking sust for wks 1-10 he wouldn't start PCT till week 13 becuase sust's deconate ester is still active for 3 weeks after the last inject. So you start PCT when your test levels are at there lowest) Now maybe near the end of PCT your test levels maybe higher than normal due to clomid raising LH levels and natural test production being restored but after discontinuing clomid you'll experience a "mini lag" period this is why Billy Bathgate said to wait 4 weeks after pct. To let natural test levels fully recover to normal.
If you understand the mechanism by which clomid works you'd understand that clomid wouldn't be effective while you still have high test levels.
This is why you use hcg during cycle to prevent testicular atrophy and not clomid.
Bottom line bad idea to cut when on PCT.
xxxl83
AR-Hall of Famer
Like Billy said the depot release of any injection is at its highest blood concentrations within 24 hours. PCT is not a good time in my opinion to cut.
Member
WTF?...
Do not cut during PCT.
Rookie what are you talking about test levels will be high?
If you take sust you WAIT 3 weeks before starting PCT so you will not have high test levels at all.
Test is low, estrogen is high, cortisol levels are way up... what you need to do in this extremely sensitive time is keep calories up- even higher than they were during the cycle- in order to get through this very catabolic time.
By cutting calories and "cutting" you are going to be putting your body into a more catabolic state in an already catabolic time... say goodbye to a fair amount of the muscle you gained.
You can add clen post cycle if you want though... it may have some anti catabolic effects.
Retired~ AR-Hall of Famer
I don't think they are 0 but they are close by the 2nd or 3rd week depending on half-life of the compunds used in the cycle. If your levels were not at their lowest nearing PCT there would be no point in starting. I agree with Billy.
Durring the period of waiting between the cycle and PCT is why I like to run a fast acting coumpound so that I'm running gear up to a day or so out from PCT. JMO but I feel it helps in maintaining more gains and following the same diet, training, and resting during PCT and a few weeks beyond PCT.
AR Vet / Retired
No not litterally 0, but low, lower than natural levels towards that 3rd week.
Ive done the bloodwork even. Ill see if I can dig out some old shit out of my garage that I had packed away and tell you my values.
Member
Week 3 is its halflife ---- I always though that halflife is when half of the AS is absorbed.........(stupid me)
I'm glad I've learned that halflife is the time when the test levels are near 0.
"Originally Posted by Billy_Bathgate
..... By that 2nd 3rd wk the levels will be near 0".
What a dumbass I was........
I feel like I was blind, but I can see now........
Member
week 13 in this case is the half life of the last injection ---- please, show me where you've learned that at half life the levels are at the lowest.
PS - the whole idea behind the PCT is not to wait till your levels are low - but to jump start your natural levels while you still have test in your system (AT IT"S HALFLIFE - the highest point, when it starts to decline)
Member
at half life you don't have "high test levels at all" ---- huh? - This is Revolutionary - where can I learn more about that.
How many people on AR board think that steroid half life is the time when the test levels are at the low?
Member
His cycle is sust. - and 2d and 3d week is it's half life.
The point is ---- aperently, I'm the only one who thinks that at AS half life the levels are not low.
Senior Member
It all depends on you bro. Listen to noone except your own body.
AR-Hall of Famer
Actually the problem here is the misuse of the word half-life. Lets take enanthate for example. If I remember correctly its halflife is about 5-6 days (I know some list it at 10.5 but I think that is incorrect). What most people are going to call the half life is 14-17 days but that is actually the rate of ester release in the body. When in an IM injection a high spike of concentration is seen within the first 24 hours (when the depot is largest) followed by a tail depending on the length of the ester and the oil it is suspended in. There are lots of charts that will show you the life of an injection. PCT occurs at the end of this effective life and people are generally very low in test levels (lower then normal). Otherwise recovery would not be possible because the negative feedback loop in the body would stop it and we would be trying to recover constantly during cycles. This is why we recommend switching to shorter esters so that one is not low in test levels for as long as a longer ester tapers. I still don't recommend cutting during PCT since you are at your most vulnerable for catabolism.
Member
I didn't say at "half life you don't have high test levels at all"... i said by the time you start pct 3 weeks after your sust shot your test levels will be low as that is when the ester has to a good extent cleared you body... nothing to do with half life ace.
Regardless, when you're in the middle of PCT your test levels will be lower than normal and your estrogen levels will likely be higher... cortisol levels up, etc... so even if at the very beginning you choose to believe that test levels are high it is of no consequence as wehn you're lowering cals you're in a very catabolic state for the "majority" of the time.
Lots of misinformation on this board sometimes... but listen to the mods instead of self styled vets and you'll all be good.
AR Vet / Retired
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Billy_Bathgate
No not litterally 0, but low, lower than natural levels towards that 3rd week.......
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Week 3 is its halflife ---- I always though that halflife is when half of the AS is absorbed.........(stupid me)
I'm glad I've learned that halflife is the time when the test levels are near 0.
"Originally Posted by Billy_Bathgate
..... By that 2nd 3rd wk the levels will be near 0".
What a dumbass I was........
I feel like I was blind, but I can see now........
Do more reasearch before you want to call me out.
3 wks is NOT the half life.Half life is more around 6 days for the deconate ester IIRC It is the amount of time for clearance of the drug. Thats why you wait 3wks before you start clomid. If it was the half life, you would wait more like 8wks.
PCT cannot be started untill exengonous substances are minimized and virtually non existant. If you dont, PCT wont work. Negative feedback is what its called. Look it up.
Again, how an ester works. Its not linear. Its exponential. Its highest point is when its created and it decreases Exponentially.
IVe taken blood work many times. I know personally and I know what my biochem books say. I suggest you take the time to do the same.
Productive Member
Thanks billy. I just don't think he understands what PCT consist of.
xxxl83
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