Questions about HRT and cycle.....Johnnyb?

[BUYLONGTERM]

Well, my first question is what is 200mg every 3 weeks really going to do? I mean, I know I'm not going to get big off it, but can I still expect being a little hornier? The reason I asked this is I know a Dr. can prescribe 200mg every 2 weeks, but my dr. wants to injected me every 3 weeks? I'm not even sure if that little amount is beneficial?

Now, I'm sure I will be on HRT for many years to come, obviously I won't be coming off.

So, without my Dr. finding out I'm going to be doing more Test on my own, (I'm sure he will be testing me and I don't want him to think that the small amount he's giving me is highering my levels to that extent. What can I do to handle this? Taper off Test every few months?

What about PCT?

[johnsomebody]

That's what I don't understand about HRT either. Once it shuts your balls down, as it's gonna do in a few weeks, I assume, is 100mg/wk gonna be worth it? I've read a few things by guys saying it's not.
Men's Journal had an interesting article by a guy who was bordeline low, went on the gel for weeks. Result -"bupkes".
Seems like it would be harder to do a cycle any time soon since you're going to be monitored by your doc regularly now.

Ironmaster talks about it on some of his older posts too, you might want to check that out.

Good luck buddy!

[BUYLONGTERM]

JS, good to hear from you buddy...You been hiding? I know, I could be screwed. It's got me thinking!!!! But, OH HOW bad I want to start this cycle!!! I might even lose the EQ and Var.

[JohnnyB]

Bro your Dr should be doing 3 month check-ups for the first year, then every 6 months the second, after that once a year.

Do the dose he recommended and see where that brings your test levels. Make sure you do your blood work the day before your next injection. I do 100mg ew, your dose seems low.

JohnnyB

[BUYLONGTERM]

Yeah, I agree about my dose being low. He really has no clue what he's doing. He does recommend me going to an endoc. So, I guess my cycle might have to wait? What have you normally done?

[LORDBLiTZ]

100mg EW? Doesn't the human body naturally make 10mg ED?

[BUYLONGTERM]

Actually, I don't think I can wait a few more months... I need more opinions.

[BASK8KACE]

Let me preface this by saying that I've been to several specialists and doctors (4) regarding HRT. I've asked a TON of questions and have learned a lot about it through these four doctors, which include 2 Internal Medicine doctors, an Urologist and an Endocrinologist. I had to go through testing etc before I received my prescription--I have an excellent primary care physician.

HRT is usually prescribed at 100mg per week, 200mg every other week or 200mg per week. This is the first time I've heard of 200mg every 3 weeks.

Not all doctors are aware of how to prescribe HRT. Believe it or not, there are so many things for doctors to keep up with along with keeping up with their own interests within the medical field that some doctors miss opportunities to learn a subject thoroughly (such as HRT).

Doctors who are truly familiar with HRT, usually go with either the 100mg every week or the 200mg every week dose in order to prevent the yo-yo effect of the testosterone building up then dissipating, which happens when injections are given every other week.

Here's a suggestion for you:
Start the medication every 3 weeks. Take the test as prescribed for a month or two then tell your doctor that you're feeling sluggish and depressed around the end of the second or third week. Tell him you think the "yo-yo effect" is causing the sluggishness and depression. Then discuss options. One option being (obviously) taking 200mg every week.

As far as being tested:
If he allows you to take the shots at home (which some doctors allow, others do not), just avoid him until your cycle is over and you have had a chance to get your testosterone back to normal. If he makes you take the shots in his office (given by him or an assistant), wait a few weeks then tell him that coming into the office so frequently has become inconvenient and suggest doing the shots on your own.

[BUYLONGTERM]

Thats the advise I was looking for!!! I don't think for one second he will be taking the time to do routine tests. But, If I decide to got to an endoc., I think that's where I could get into a bit of trouble. He knew that I was on a cycle before, so he already told me that he is going to hold off allowing me to inject myself because he thinks I will double the dose. He knows I know more about this stuff than he does, so If I show him so proof that 200mg every 3 weeks is messing me up, I'm hoping to get an injection every week. But, correct me if I'm wrong, a Dr. can only prescribe 200mg every 2 weeks...

[BUYLONGTERM]

Again, other thing that has me concerned. Since he has no knowledge of what the correct doses are, I might actually have to see the Endocrinologist. Other wise, he might think i'm addicted to the stuff. (which I think he already does)

[BASK8KACE]

Thats the advise I was looking for!!! I don't think for one second he will be taking the time to do routine tests. But, If I decide to got to an endoc., I think that's where I could get into a bit of trouble. He knew that I was on a cycle before, so he already told me that he is going to hold off allowing me to inject myself because he thinks I will double the dose. He knows I know more about this stuff than he does, so If I show him so proof that 200mg every 3 weeks is messing me up, I'm hoping to get an injection every week. But, correct me if I'm wrong, a Dr. can only prescribe 200mg every 2 weeks...

A doctor can prescribe 200mg every week. 200mg per week is not seen as excessive, and is generally the amount that is prescribed.

If your doctor knows about your steroid use, then perhaps it will be next to impossible for him to feel comfortable about prescribing more than 200mg every 3 weeks. His knowing about your cycles is probably why he has given you such an unorthodox prescription of testo for HRT. He might even be testing to see if you ask for more.

Now that I know he knows about your steroid use, I think you might want to consider either accepting the dose for now (some is better than none) or finding a new doctor. If you play your cards right and go back with the complaints I described in my post above (only after waiting for a few months--3 or more), then you may win his trust. Now that he knows, if you wait for only 1 month before you complaing, then your request my set off his steroid abuse alarm.

[Ntpadude]

Well, my first question is what is 200mg every 3 weeks really going to do? I mean, I know I'm not going to get big off it, but can I still expect being a little hornier? The reason I asked this is I know a Dr. can prescribe 200mg every 2 weeks, but my dr. wants to injected me every 3 weeks? I'm not even sure if that little amount is beneficial?

Now, I'm sure I will be on HRT for many years to come, obviously I won't be coming off.

So, without my Dr. finding out I'm going to be doing more Test on my own, (I'm sure he will be testing me and I don't want him to think that the small amount he's giving me is highering my levels to that extent. What can I do to handle this? Taper off Test every few months?

What about PCT?

Just go with the flow dude... for one you are probably going to be permanently on HRT, there might not be on or off cycle... Also you DO get some increases from the extra test... what happens is, its not all at once in a short cycle growth, but compared year end results from a year with one 3 month cycle as compared to steady and consistent HRT and you'll probably come out the same or possibly better with the HRT.

Not only that but when you are first starting HRT, you are under the microscope... after a few months drag on, you probably get trusted to take some scripts home and self administer them... then you have more control.

[BUYLONGTERM]

I agree. I will wait a few months then tell him what you said. In the mean time, I think I will start a small dose on my own because I truly think he will NOT test me due to his lack of knowledge. I will not do EQ for now. Since I think I'm in this for the long haul, I can always add the EQ later on.

[BASK8KACE]

If you're in this for the long haul, then go for the HRT.

If you're worried about maintaining a normally functioning HPTA, then I'd suggest restoring your normal levels of test by using traditional PCT.

[JohnnyB]

Damn I'm here late, all go info.

You might want to add 250-500iu 2 days a week of hcg to prevent athropy, up it to 500-1000iu if you do the cycle.

That's a good idea save the EQ for later, add some test now. I'd say after your cycle see an endoc, because if your going to go the haul you need those 3 month check-ups for the first year.

I've been rethinking my cycling on HRT, I might limit mine to once a year, but we'll.

JohnnyB

[JohnnyB]

100mg EW? Doesn't the human body naturally make 10mg ED?

Bro I don't know the break down of mg to ng/dl, but I'm doing 100mg a week and my teat levels have went for 229 to 365ng/dl. That's at the low end of my HRT or 1 day befroe my next injection.

Here's something else that happened with the HRT. My estrogen was at 72 after 1 year of HRT it's down to 20. Which the Dr told me would happen, I thought he didn't know what he was talking about, but the tests showed he did.

JohnnyB

[johnsomebody]

I don't get how you're going to pull this off with this doctor -I mean if you do a cycle and put on 15lbs he's gonna know exactly why.

Maybe you should try to find a doctor that specializes in HRT? Some of them are supposed to be pretty cool on gear use. It sounds like you're pretty frustrated with this guy anyway and that he doesn't really trust you.

[Warrior]

The real anabolic effects occur at 300mg per week and over. A replacement dose won't do much...

[Warrior]

100mg EW? Doesn't the human body naturally make 10mg ED?

15mg/ED or 100mg/wk is the normal replacement dose used clinically for hypogonadal men.

"...100mg per week of testosterone enanthate for 10 weeks. This is the dose that produces no change in circulating testosterone or in body weight in normal men, exactly "replacing" suppressed endogenous levels of testosterone (Friedl et al.,1991), and that brings hypogonadal men to the normal testosterone range." (Friedl 2000)

BTW - he's going to know you are filling your own prescrition on the side if you are going to be monitored for HRT. Some doctors are specifically trained to recognize abuse of prescription medications used by athletes (testosterone being an obvious example) - or attempts to obtain Rx meds for illicit purposes. But some will use the harm reduction approach - they will agree to monitor you and provide you with legit Rx meds (to keep you "safe" from black market meds) while trying to get you to stop altogether. That approach is more for the person that demonstrates no intentions in stopping their use.

[BUYLONGTERM]

Great, now Im more confused than ever. If I go to an endoc. I'm screwed. If I stick with my Dr., I'm not getting anywhere. If I decide to do it on my own, then again, I'm screwed because blood work will show my use.

I don't think I can win?????

DAMN! I have a lot of thinking to do!

[BASK8KACE]

I think the best thing to do is to get a new doctor. Stay off the steroids long enough to let them get out of your system. Once you're back to your low test levels, go to a new doctor and start from scratch. Don't even tell him you were on HRT before, else he'll ask to speak to your old doctor who will most certainly pass on his suspicions of your AS abuse.

[BASK8KACE]

The real anabolic effects occur at 300mg per week and over. A replacement dose won't do much...

Warrior I strongly disagree with you on this point. 200mg every week is far MORE than TWICE what the normally functioning male produces. I have several low dose posts regarding this subject. The "real anabolic effect" (as you put it) depends on many more factors than just dose. The "anabolic effect" does not magically start for everyone at 300mg per week (where did you get 300mg from anyway?). Some people can grow well on 200-250 mg per week.

Even 100mg of test per week is at the high end of normal test production.

The figure we constantly hear is that the male body produces 10mg of tesosterone per week--this is the high end of the spectrum. Not every healthy, normally functioning male produces 10mg per week.

If you're interested in more information on this, please search my posts on low dose cycles.

It's a myth that 200mg per week is only enough to shut you down. Please refer to my other posts on this subject if you want detailed, factual support.

[BUYLONGTERM]

Yeah, I've been thinking and this is what I"m going to do. I'm going to go see the endoc. I haven't been on anything in 4 months, so my levels are where they should be normally.

But, again, If he puts me on 100/200mg a week, then I will be happy. If he decides not then I will rethink this. But, 200mg every 3 weeks is ridiculous.

I am also going to get some HGC as well. In the first 8 weeks of my cycle, I only took 250mg of Test and I was feeling incredible!!! Even when I was doing 350-400mg of test, and EQ, I had NO shrinkage whatsoever.

I will make an appt tomorrow.

[motoxxxguy]

This all sounds like amore of a hassle than it is worth. I know the sound of getting a Rx for gear is exciting, but if you really want to continue cycling, I think HRT might not be the right decision at this time, especially with this particular doc. From your other posts it sounds like your test levels were not that low, maybe the lower 1/3 of the spectrum if I recall correctly. If you were rethinking your use like JohnnyB, then I think this may be more beneficial. This doc will definitely be suspicious and be watching for your next cycle, whether he is regularly testing you or not. I would pas on the 200mg every three weeks deal, maybe try some other docs to find one htat may be cooler with the AAS use, or don't worry about HRT right now. Again, this is just my opinion of the situation, as I have little knowledge about HRT.

-moto

[JohnnyB]

I think you have a good idea. Go to the endo now get it streaightened out, get your blood work then cycle. That's what I did, now I'm wait for the endoc to give me a HGH script

JohnnyB

[Warrior]

Warrior I strongly disagree with you on this point. 200mg every week is far MORE than TWICE what the normally functioning male produces. I have several low dose posts regarding this subject. The "real anabolic effect" (as you put it) depends on many more factors than just dose. The "anabolic effect" does not magically start for everyone at 300mg per week (where did you get 300mg from anyway?). Some people can grow well on 200-250 mg per week.

Its not my opinion - its a fact. I will look and see if I can dig up exactly what seems to occur only after 300mg per week after work today. I can't recall them off the top of my head. There are certain anabolic effects that don't occur until after 300mg per week...

[BASK8KACE]

Its not my opinion - its a fact. I will look and see if I can dig up exactly what seems to occur only after 300mg per week after work today. I can't recall them off the top of my head. There are certain anabolic effects that don't occur until after 300mg per week...

Warrior,

Please let me know. All the tests done on even TINY doses, including Androgel and the testosterone patch (Androderm) show an increase in anabolic affects at very low levels of testosterone.

I didn't know that there were formal tests done on normally functioning males regarding what doses testosterone begins working or causing an "anabolic effect." I thought that the reason we all spend so much time on this board discussing and comparing personal experiences is because there is a lack of legitmate, scientific studies on how steroids (at doses above therapeutic levels) act in the human body of a normally functioning male using testosterone or other steroids to build muscle mass. (--That is aside from the fact that this is a forum for pretending--I know none of us actually USE steroids.)

I think common sense and simple reasoning would bring someone to the conclusion that any amount of testosterone above the normal levels will increase the body's ability to create muscle faster than normal--if the body is put under stress by weight training, fed correctly and rested correctly.

All tests I've read regarding therapeutic doses of testosterone indicate that anabloic effects were recorded in men experiencing hypogonadism when small amounts were administered. NOTE these tests summaries can be read by refering to the insert pamphlet of Upjohns Testosterone Cypionate (Depot-Testosteron) and the makers of Androgel. You can go to the websites of these product manufacturers and read the insert online.

200mg of testosterone per week (from intramuscular injections) is MORE than TWICE the normal amount of testosterone in a normally functioning male. I can't see why TWICE the normal amount of testosterone would not cause anabolic affects--that doesn't seem right. In fact, personal experience and the experience of several other members on the board who have used low doses oppose your statement that anabolic effects only start at 300mg.

When you get the info, please write out the source. If it is a book, please supply the ISBN number, because I want to read it and see the context in which this statement regarding 300mg of testosterone per week appears.

BLT,
I didn't mean to hi-jack your thread. You know how I feel about this subject, and I like to discuss it when people mention things that are severely contrary to what is supported by my own experience and research.

[BUYLONGTERM]

I'm glad you both stepped in. It really helps me learn more about this subject. Lets try and keep this going!!!!

BUMP

[RussianVodka]

Howdy,

I'm on HRT right now. My doc sent me test cyp by mail. I'm doing 1cc (200mg) weekly. Can't say I get nothing. There defenetly some results.

[BUYLONGTERM]

God, I wish I could get my stuff by mail

[Warrior]

BASK8KACE - bro... I am deffinitly not saying that doubling or tripleing someone's endogenous androgen levels won't produce an anabolic effect. You are missing what I said. I said "There are certain anabolic effects that don't occur until after 300mg per week"... and I searched though the book I thought I read that in today and couldn't find where he discussed it... and referenced the studies. It wasn't merely an increase in protein synthesis, nitrogen retention or cross-over binding to glucocorticoid receptors (albeit these would obviously improve with a higher dose) - but it was something to do with the actual anabolism within the muscle. Certain anabolic effects on lean mass that only occured in what they mentioned as "high doses testosterone use"... >300mg per week.

But yeah - there are not many studies out there - but there are some. For the most part they deal with testosterone being researched as a male contraceptive in humans as well as high doses used on animals. The studies do exist. I can't recall any of them on humans exceeding 600mg per week - which is referenced as "very high dose therapy". There are a couple books out there by Taylor and Yeselis that highlight a lot of the formal studies that have been done and apply it to the use of AAS by althletes...

I am not trying to argue with you - I agree that any amount of testosterone over ones endogenous production will yield results. But there are benefits to be realized when you use above a basic baseline amount for performance effects in athletes. Based on my research - no cycle should be under 300mg per week of total exogenous androgen use.

[BUYLONGTERM]

See, thats why I like this board, people can disagree, but we all respect one another....

[JohnnyB]

Howdy,

I'm on HRT right now. My doc sent me test cyp by mail. I'm doing 1cc (200mg) weekly. Can't say I get nothing. There defenetly some results.

Dayum add 50mg and your on a cycle

JohnnyB

[JohnnyB]

BASK8KACE There are a couple books out there by Taylor and Yeselis that highlight a lot of the formal studies that have been done and apply it to the use of AAS by althletes...

Come on Bro give us the names of those books, I'd like to read them.

JohnnyB

[Austex]

I personally am not educated in HRT, but my question is this: If you are worried that running a cycle will interfere with blood work performed by your doc ( HRT Monitoring ) , why even bother with HRT? You could then run your cycle, and during the "off" months administer your own HRT. A doc will gladly describe test results to you if you simply go in and have your blood work done.

[BASK8KACE]

BASK8KACE - bro... I am deffinitly not saying that doubling or tripleing someone's endogenous androgen levels won't produce an anabolic effect. You are missing what I said. I said "There are certain anabolic effects that don't occur until after 300mg per week"... and I searched though the book I thought I read that in today and couldn't find where he discussed it... and referenced the studies. It wasn't merely an increase in protein synthesis, nitrogen retention or cross-over binding to glucocorticoid receptors (albeit these would obviously improve with a higher dose) - but it was something to do with the actual anabolism within the muscle. Certain anabolic effects on lean mass that only occured in what they mentioned as "high doses testosterone use"... >300mg per week.

Warrior,

When you find the book(s) with the studies, please list the title and the ISBN number of the book(s) so those who want to can read them.

You said that the "anabolic effect" that you refer to isn't just an increase in protein synthesis, nitrogen retention or cross-over binding to glucocorticoid receptors. I thought these three were the reason for anabolic results, and test at any level above normal certainly gives these results. If it's not one of those things, what what other anabolic affects are there? Please be more specific if you can about this other property that testosterone has only at doses of 300mg per week or above.

BLT,

Check with your health insurance carrier. A lot of health insurance companies have mail order subcontractors that supply their insureds with injectable medications by mail. What health insurance co. do you have?

You mentioned disagreeing with respect. I agree, BLT. That's why it's a good thing when Warrior adds his opion and information to a thread--you can count on him to discuss things or to disagree without taking it personally. He's a good guy.

[BASK8KACE]

I personally am not educated in HRT, but my question is this: If you are worried that running a cycle will interfere with blood work performed by your doc ( HRT Monitoring ) , why even bother with HRT? You could then run your cycle, and during the "off" months administer your own HRT. A doc will gladly describe test results to you if you simply go in and have your blood work done.

Austex,

I'm guessing that if you get a legitimate prescription for 200mg of testosterone per month, you can (if you choose to do this) benefit in two ways:

(1) You know that the most important part of your cycle--your testosterone base is pure.
(2) If you save your bottles of test, you can create a good cycle without paying black-market prices. In other words, you'll save money.

But the trick, so to speak, is to truly have a reason to get a prescription. Some doctors require several tests before prescirbing HRT.

I know that there is discussion in the medical community about whether it is ethical or even risky (due to liability issues) to administer steroids to someone who has obviously abused them in the past. For example, if a bodybuilder--250 lbs. 5'8" tall, 9% body fat--walks into a doctor's office asking for HRT due to low test levels, some doctors and even some pharmacists will refuse to administer HRT due to suspected AS abuse. Some doctors will only prescribe Androgel to some patients and will refuse to administer/prescribe injectable testosterone to these bodybuilders.

[sp9]

About the doc checkups, what about health check usa? couldn't you order a Super Chemistry test plus PSA and throw in their other test for total and frationized test levels without seeing the doc? The super chemistry with PSA is $75 and I am sure the test for test is not much. You get referred to the same labs in your area that your doctor would send you to and get the results delivered to you. While we are not doctors you would definitley be able to see where you are in relation to the normal ranges. Also they have a service where a doc will go over the results with you over the phone.

The super chem test does the following: Includes Total Cholesterol, HDL,LDL,and Ratios, Triglycerides, Glucose(Diabetes), Kidney, Liver, and Heart Functions, Potassium, Calcium,Uric Acid, Electrolytes, Iron, PLUS a CBC (Complete Blood Count) AND our PSA which is recommended for males over 50 years of age, or over 40 years of age with family history. HealthcheckUSA avg. price: $75.00 / Valued $346.00 (HealthcheckUSA pricing can vary depending on location chosen.)

[BASK8KACE]

scottp999,

This is good info. Is there a phone number or web address for these test centers?

[Warrior]

The answer to what effects anabolic steroids have above the minimal does is somewhere within these two books:





I only have the Yesalis book with me right now (I am overseas) - but I am sure the study I am referring to was in that one. BASK8KACE - there are more effects than that on muscle tissue - as I am sure you know, the effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids on the body are quite broad. For example, I am positive that the authors mentioned an effect on satelite cells (myoblasts) that only occured at a dose above 300mg per week. But like I said, I can't locate the study I was referring to that suggested improved anabolic effects over 300mg per week of testosterone. You'll just have to trust me on this one until I come across it - in which time I will post it or PM you the info.

But anyway - both books are a must read for anyone remotely interested in the topic (which should be just about anyone using PEDs). Out of these two - I would say the Yesalis book provided the best info. But Taylors reenforces a lot of the information.