The Bible is a work of Fiction

[Tock]

Yah, we may as well continue this little line of conversation here
instead of hijacking the "Passion" thread.

Anyway, someone alleged that the Bible was a work of impeccable historical accuracy, and I, being the outspoken unbeleiver that I am, could not resist the urge to voice my dissent.
Yes, I admit, I am a heretic. It took me a while to get here, but everything that I've seen convinces me that

1) No one really knows who wrote the first five books of the Old Testament, yet we are expected to beleive the product of some anonymous writer.
2) The Exodus story as depicted in the Old Testament is a work of fiction. There is no corroborating evidence in any Middle Eastern archeological digs of
a) Egypt's sudden loss of over half it's population
b) The decimation of Egypt's army
c) Anything about the plagues, including the death of the Egyptian's first born children
. . . and this absence of mention is all the more curious, as there is plenty of other information to be had in Egyptian affairs in that time period. Since the only source of information for this story is comes from the Israelis, who were at the time a largely uneducated tribal people (and such folks are given to the creation of folk tales), it seems far more likely that the Exodus story is fiction than actual fact.

As was mentioned in the "Passion" thread, there are Four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John), and in those four books there are no fewer than five accounts of the Resurrection.
With 5 different versions of the Resurrection to choose from, the Bible cannot be considered a "definitive source of historical fact."

DISCLAIMER: I realize there are folks who interpret the Bible literally, and there are others who take it more as a metaphor. My own religious training was in the literalist tradition, and I cannot fault the reasoning of those of the metaphorical camp. But for the folks who claim that the Bible is the Inerrant Word of the Creator of the Universe, you've got problems--because if just ONE part of the Bible can be conclusively thrown into doubt, then you're stuck with a book that's Not Inerrant, Not Perfect, and if you're going to follow this thread, be ready to either lose your faith, or join in with those who take the Bible as a metaphor, or to defend your current opinion with the abundant use of nonsequiteurs and unsupportable denials, or tossing in the classic "Pascal's Wager" or "Turn or Burn" (empty) threat.

So . . . What do y'all think?
Oh yah, one more thing . . . these heretical views are NOT the sole province of "godless liberals," but, from what I've seen from acquaintances, those of Bush-loving conservatives, Libertarians, and other freethinkers. So, please, no "branding" with the "L" word. It doesn't apply.

Let the posts begin . . .
--Tock

[tryingtogetbig]

...So, please, no "branding" with the "L" word. It doesn't apply.

Let the posts begin . . .
--Tock

You are NO fun!!


Regarding your beliefs, I totally respect them. I too question my own from time to time, particularly when dealing with "organized" religion. But, like I asked in the other thread...

What if you are wrong....

"Eternity" seems like a really long time to have to evaluate a wrong decision....

peace,

ttgb

[scottninpo]

what a lot of people don't know is that there were dozens of gospels written and those four were chosen because of the particular people they were addressed to, one thing that people seem to deny all the time is that Jesus wasn't born on Dec. 25, no one really knows when he was born, they think sometime in march around 3 A.D. amd Dec. 25 was chosen because of a then pagan belief

[Tock]

You are NO fun!!


1) Regarding your beliefs, I totally respect them. I too question my own from time to time, particularly when dealing with "organized" religion. But, like I asked in the other thread...

2) What if you are wrong....

"Eternity" seems like a really long time to have to evaluate a wrong decision....

peace,

ttgb

1) Thanks, but to the folks who don't, that's fine too. Everyone has the right to their own opinons, not to the right to have other folks agree with or even think very much of them.
We can all agree to disagree, but we don't have to be disagreeable about it.

2) Ya, this is the classic "Pascal's Wager." Pascal was a pretty good scientist, but not a very good theologian.
He reasoned, "If I beleive and I'm wrong, then I've lost nothing. If you don't beleive and are wrong, then you've lost everything."

There's a few problems with this.
The first is, Which God should you beleive in? There are plenty to choose from, and suppose you pick God X and God Y is the true one, and has a worse afterlife than God X? In that case, you could hedge your bet and worship every god.
But, would the True God be so dumb as to not realize you were not sincere, but just beleiving as a matter of convenience?

On the other hand, if there are no gods, the beleiver has lost something. You've spent a lot of time going to church instead of sleeping late, paying tithes, praying, reading the Bible when you could have been working your abs, boring the h e l l out of people who didn't really want to hear about Jesus.
And the unbeliever would have had lived the only life he would ever get according to the best information and principles he knew, and would have Lived His Own Life His Own Way, instead of living his life the way other people told him to.

IMHO, It is better to live your life as if there are no gods, and do nice things for your friends and loved ones. If there are no gods, you would have lost nothing, and your bereaved relatives will remember you fondly. If there is a loving deity after all, you will be known to it as a good person who did lots of nice things, and not just whether or not you professed "belief" that he existed.

One other thing . . . Any deity that would choose to sentence an honest unbeleiver who nevertheless took care of sick neighbors, gave $$ to homeless people, paid his taxes, served in the local volunteer fire department and saved a few lives, loved generously and honestly,
to a thousand million endless eternities writhing in senseless pain and anguish, I would say that that deity was more loathesome than any pus-laden turd that ever drooled out the ass of the vilest sadistic (expletive deleted), and is not worthy of human reverence and worship.
Yah, to send a good person to the sort of punishment described in the Bible is unjustified. "An eye for and eye" is one thing . . . but Neverending Torment for harboring an honest doubt?

Nah, the whole "Pascal's Wager" thing is just a tactic to scare naive people who don't know any better into following the lead of some big organized religion, where they can be milked of their money and told how to behave.
I'm lucky I extricated myself from that BS . . . and I'm here to tell you that you can free yourself of all those superstitions, too. Won't be easy, but it can be done. All you have to do is decide to think and live for yourself.

--Tock

[tryingtogetbig]

Nah, the whole "Pascal's Wager" thing is just a tactic to scare naive people who don't know any better into following the lead of some big organized religion, where they can be milked of their money and told how to behave.
I'm lucky I extricated myself from that BS . . . and I'm here to tell you that you can free yourself of all those superstitions, too. Won't be easy, but it can be done. All you have to do is decide to think and live for yourself.

--Tock

I shared my beliefs regarding organized religion...and I consider believing in "God" and blindly following organized religion are two completley seperate issues....that shouldn't be confused.

I do tend to think "for myself." But, there are certain things that happen in life that make you realize that there is something in this world much more powerful than any human. If you haven't experienced any of these "revelations", then maybe you can't see the forest for the trees. I'm not questioning your intelligence and research, but sometimes intelligent people have a closed mind because they truly think they already know everything there is to know....Just my opinion, of course.

peace,

ttgb

[decadbal]

hell will be hot

[Tock]

hell will be hot

So "they" say.

But how do "they " know? Anyone ever been there?
--Tock

[Phillyboy1]

So "they" say.

But how do "they " know? Anyone ever been there?
--Tock

haha i say that all the time
you only find out what happens after life two times, before you are born, and after you die. and i havent talked to any dead people or unborn fetus's yet.

[Rugby13]

...Read "A divine revelation of hell" I found it pretty interesting. I agree the decision as to which God to believe in is, has been and will till the end of time as we know be a dilemma (sp) but I say just believe in something. Don't go through life not believing in anything. Find something to believe in...me personally am a born again Christian, I know you might not think that from some past threads but hey I'm still human which brings me to another point real quick. To those of you who judge Christians just remember, we do not expect to be perfect, the difference is we strive toward perfection...anyway that was off topic. The reason pascals wager makes sense to me is because none of the other religions say that if you don't believe in their god something bad will happen (you'll be ****ed to hell) whereas Christianity is the only religion that I know of that actually says if you do not believe in Jesus Christ as Gods son then you'll go to hell and I think that is why there is more controversy over Christianity than any other religion because people don't want to be told what will happen to them if they chose a different lifestyle so they go with what makes them comfortable....religions that say heaven and hell are just a state of mind and it is what you want it to be. There thses people can make themselves feel better about themselves. So if pascals wager were true then I'd go with Christianity due to the bigger "risk" I stand to lose more if i don't believe in the Christian God and I'm wrong than if I were to believe in Budha and were wrong.Hopefully this was not tooo confusing
Anyway, just my 0.2
Also I'm not educated enough to argue about it, that's just what I beleive, even if it is blind faith!!!

So "they" say.

But how do "they " know? Anyone ever been there?
--Tock

[Tock]

[QUOTE=Rugby13

1) Don't go through life not believing in anything. Find something to believe in...

2) To those of you who judge Christians just remember, we do not expect to be perfect, the difference is we strive toward perfection.

3) The reason pascals wager makes sense to me is because none of the other religions say that if you don't believe in their god something bad will happen (you'll be ****ed to hell) whereas Christianity is the only religion that I know of that actually says if you do not believe in Jesus Christ as Gods son then you'll go to hell

4) . So if pascals wager were true then I'd go with Christianity due to the bigger "risk" I stand to lose more if i don't believe in the Christian God
QUOTE]


1) "Everyone ought to beleive in something . . . I beleive I'll have another drink!" --W.C.Fields
2) The only truly objectionable Christians are the ones who cram their religion down other people's throats. It's the ones who think that other people should beleive the way they do, worship the way they do, live the way they do, that chap my ass (and I've got a half inch of new callus).
3) So how do you pick between Roman Catholicism, Jehovah's Witness, WorldWide Church of God, Church of Christ, Branch Davidians, or any of the multitude of Christian denominations that say you gotta beleive their way OR ELSE?
4) Are you certain that your knowledge of all the other religions that ever existed is thorough enough that you can confidently all others not Christian?

-Tock

[Rugby13]

Ok I see what you're saying but to me, my beliefs don't say believe it my way or else and I don't agree with the fact that true Christians are the ones that cram stuff down your throat. I've never agreed with that approach. To me Christianity or to be a Christian means that you beleive that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and he sent His Son to earth to die for my and your sins so we may be forgiven and rose on the third day again and that there is no way to heaven but through Jesus Christ, God's son. So I'm not saying which Christian beleif to believe in. To me that the basic beleif and if you truly beleive that and try to live a more "Christ-like" life you'll end up in heaven.
As far as pascals wager goes, forget I said anything about that because honestly I don't think that's a good enough reason to believe in Christianity, you have to feel convictred within yourself to want to beleive, not because you're scared of what might happen to you if you don't.

[QUOTE=Tock]

1) "Everyone ought to beleive in something . . . I beleive I'll have another drink!" --W.C.Fields
2) The only truly objectionable Christians are the ones who cram their religion down other people's throats. It's the ones who think that other people should beleive the way they do, worship the way they do, live the way they do, that chap my ass (and I've got a half inch of new callus).
3) So how do you pick between Roman Catholicism, Jehovah's Witness, WorldWide Church of God, Church of Christ, Branch Davidians, or any of the multitude of Christian denominations that say you gotta beleive their way OR ELSE?
4) Are you certain that your knowledge of all the other religions that ever existed is thorough enough that you can confidently all others not Christian?

-Tock

[monstercojones]

yea, there were over 80 other gospels written by authors equally as reliable as the ones by matthew, mark, luke and john.... they all said that jesus was a normal (not divine) dude with some great ideas, and he was slamming mary magdeline...

also, the bible as we know it was engineered by constantine, a lifetime pagan who hired people to put the bible together in such a way that it fused early christian and pagan beliefs and rituals, to unite his empire...

proof of this is the Nicene Creed... In the early 5th century, the Council of Nicene met under the authority of the Holy Catholic church, bishops, theologians and pagan leaders met and VOTED on what was going to be in the bible and what wasnt.... those set of beliefs that catholics trumpet out at every mass as their Infalliable core set of beliefs were actually just ideas that got voted on by a bunch of bureaucrats.

[scottninpo]

anyone who is not afraid to get their catholic beliefs blown out of the water should read "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalists" by Dr. Spong, he is an anglican priest who details the writing and formation of the bible and the true meaning of the stories, and yes, most of the bible is closer to fables than to historic fact

[Phillyboy1]

remember puff the magic dragon? in that story it almost was the same thing as the bible....
hanalee was freaking heaven, and puff is your jesus.

im not saying something didnt start all of this, but to belive in organized religion you have to be blind to open minded thought.

take the bible for some good rules to live by but its definatly not all fact

[daem]

im not saying something didnt start all of this, but to belive in organized religion you have to be blind to open minded thought.

while i don't agree with that fully, it does narrow your perspective a bit if you aren't zealous in your assertions or practices.

recognizing that the world is a complex place and that people are only out to further their own cause or the cause of their brethren is the first step.

why would die-hard Christians not denounce other religions as pagans, or wrong? in order to get people to believe or convert they need to make people believe they know best.

if i did fully believe in the Bible, i would live my life in accordance with that belief. however since the stories were all meant to serve a particular purpose at their respective time they really don't have application in the real world, ie. war on other threatening peoples, calling down plagues, etc.

the messages and points of each story is what makes them transcend time whether they happened or not, and mcojones is dead on with his interpretation IMO.

the story was created to gain authority among a decentralized group of people that had broken free of bondage, and what better way to gain control than using a mandate from God.

ultimately, at the end of the day you either believe in the messages or points or you don't. it isn't hard to recognize that by helping others and sacrificing along the way you will change peoples lives or potentially make the world a friendlier place. religion isn't meant to control, but rather make us recognize that the we as individuals are limited in our knowledge and time on earth and to make the most of it with good deeds and charity.

[scottninpo]

there are a lot of religions out there that don't say they are "the best" or the one true God, that is a western idea, and most religions are so hypocritical anyway, i can only speak of Catholicism but some of the stuff that comes out is ridiculous, "God loves everyone, unless you're gay, you masturbate, you are devoted to any other religion other than Roman Catholic, etc," the really disgusting thing is that they preach to not judge people, yet that is all that the catholic church does

[Phillyboy1]

while i don't agree with that fully, it does narrow your perspective a bit if you aren't zealous in your assertions or practices.

recognizing that the world is a complex place and that people are only out to further their own cause or the cause of their brethren is the first step.

why would die-hard Christians not denounce other religions as pagans, or wrong? in order to get people to believe or convert they need to make people believe they know best.

if i did fully believe in the Bible, i would live my life in accordance with that belief. however since the stories were all meant to serve a particular purpose at their respective time they really don't have application in the real world, ie. war on other threatening peoples, calling down plagues, etc.

the messages and points of each story is what makes them transcend time whether they happened or not, and mcojones is dead on with his interpretation IMO.

the story was created to gain authority among a decentralized group of people that had broken free of bondage, and what better way to gain control than using a mandate from God.

ultimately, at the end of the day you either believe in the messages or points or you don't. it isn't hard to recognize that by helping others and sacrificing along the way you will change peoples lives or potentially make the world a friendlier place. religion isn't meant to control, but rather make us recognize that the we as individuals are limited in our knowledge and time on earth and to make the most of it with good deeds and charity.

i understand what your saying about its trying to make peoples lives better. but it also controls people. i do belive the bible has some good leason. i was brought up in a family where my mother still says to this day to thank god for what i have, and how good my life is going. i say to her, ill thank myself, cause im the one who has worked my ass off for what i have. i see the way she thinks and it pisses me off that she puts everything on god and not on herself. because of it she never tries to better herself because she thinks god will guide her. its the lazy way, but to her she thinks its the right way.
i think religion is good for lots of people, some people wouldnt know what to do if they didnt have a book or person telling them what to do and how to live. for them thats cool, for me sorry im my own person and i can make my own way threw life.

[daem]

i have been waiting for archaeologists to unearth new literature or artifacts that validate the trickier parts of the bible before i take any stance.

raised catholic, it is comforting to know that there might be a higher power that exists, however there are so many holes in the bible that it leaks like a sieve when subjected to historical fact.

some may argue that history is, in fact, an account from those in power, but writings from different areas of the world can show us that there are discrepancies in time/place accounts from the time period that all this scripture was written.

until we can find the actual ark of the covenant, i am not going to be convinced that God Himself gave moses some stone tablets with commandments for His subjects.

God may exist, and He may not just as well, so I put the Bible on the same page as the Koran. I like empirical evidence to validate my thoughts and beliefs, however we probably will never really know until we die.

[50%Natural]

i have been waiting for archaeologists to unearth new literature or artifacts that validate the trickier parts of the bible before i take any stance.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronom..._010823-1.html

Not saying it is, but a lot of people believe that mount ararat in Turkey is the resting place of noah's ark. It makes sense since in genesis moses' 3 sons, or the 3 men responsible for all the world's races went in seperate directions. One south=blacks, one east=asians, indians and one west=whites Should this really be noah's ark, I would believe the rest of the bible to be true. However, the turkey government knows this and won't allow a soul on that mountain to search

[Tock]

1) Not saying it is, but a lot of people believe that mount ararat in Turkey is the resting place of noah's ark.

2) It makes sense since in genesis moses' 3 sons, or the 3 men responsible for all the world's races went in seperate directions. One south=blacks, one east=asians, indians and one west=whites

3) Should this really be noah's ark, I would believe the rest of the bible to be true. However, the turkey government knows this and won't allow a soul on that mountain to search

1) Mere speculation. "A lot of people" beleive lots of crazy stuff, like Scientology, or that the planet is really flat, or that the Queen of England is a shape-shifting reptile (yes, they really do!). It doesn't make it any more true if one person or "a lot of people" or a billion people beleive it.

2) . . . according to a book. A book without corroborating evidence.

3) There's quite a few reasons why the Biblical account of Noah's Ark is impossible.
a) Tally up the total number of square feet the boat could have possibly had . . . it works out to about two and a half acres.
b) Tally up the total number of animals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, and insects carried on the boat -- between 2 or 7 of each species. There are some 20,000 known species of mammals alone; lots more of everything else, especially insects (900,000 currently identified species).
c) Tally up the amount of food and fresh water it would take to feed all those animals for the time they were in the Ark -- keep in mind they were shut up inside the Ark for a total of 14 months.

Two elephants alone need to eat at least 1000 lbs of hay every day and can go through several hundred gallons of water (I got my figures from the Dallas Zoo). Multiply 1 ton by the number of days in the Ark, and you get 420 tons of hay, and that's is just for two elephants. Consider you have to feed between 40,000 and 140,000 mammals (depending on how many are considered "clean" or "unclean"), jillions of birds, reptiles, and creepy crawly bugs. And do all this on two and a half acres of space on the boat.
. . . If you were to look at what happens to a back yard when you put just a couple of dogs or horses in it, you'll get an idea of why it is impossible to put that many animals on a boat the size mentioned in the Bible. It simply cannot be done. Even if you put them all through a hamburger grinder and packed them all in, it can't be done.

And then . . . you have the little question of, "If the Ark landed in the Middle East, and all the animals migrated from there,
a) How did the kangaroos manage to swim from South Asia to Australia?
b) Why are there no kangaroos currently living between the Middle East and Australia?
c) Why are there so many species found only in isolated spots all over the planet?

And then there's the question of, "What happened to all the fresh water fish when the salt water ocean covered the entire planet?" I'm sure you know what happens to fresh water fish when you put 'em in salt water--they die.


Again, the Noah's Ark story is absurd. Fine for kids to beleive, like Santa Claus, but adults need to be able to "grow up" and learn to deal with the real world. The next time a preacher tells you the story is fact, ask him How do you know that what you know is true?"

--Tock

[50%Natural]

1) Mere speculation. "A lot of people" beleive lots of crazy stuff, like Scientology, or that the planet is really flat, or that the Queen of England is a shape-shifting reptile (yes, they really do!). It doesn't make it any more true if one person or "a lot of people" or a billion people beleive it.

2) . . . according to a book. A book without corroborating evidence.

3) There's quite a few reasons why the Biblical account of Noah's Ark is impossible.
a) Tally up the total number of square feet the boat could have possibly had . . . it works out to about two and a half acres.
b) Tally up the total number of animals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, and insects carried on the boat -- between 2 or 7 of each species. There are some 20,000 known species of mammals alone; lots more of everything else, especially insects (900,000 currently identified species).
c) Tally up the amount of food and fresh water it would take to feed all those animals for the time they were in the Ark -- keep in mind they were shut up inside the Ark for a total of 14 months.

Two elephants alone need to eat at least 1000 lbs of hay every day and can go through several hundred gallons of water (I got my figures from the Dallas Zoo). Multiply 1 ton by the number of days in the Ark, and you get 420 tons of hay, and that's is just for two elephants. Consider you have to feed between 40,000 and 140,000 mammals (depending on how many are considered "clean" or "unclean"), jillions of birds, reptiles, and creepy crawly bugs. And do all this on two and a half acres of space on the boat.
. . . If you were to look at what happens to a back yard when you put just a couple of dogs or horses in it, you'll get an idea of why it is impossible to put that many animals on a boat the size mentioned in the Bible. It simply cannot be done. Even if you put them all through a hamburger grinder and packed them all in, it can't be done.

And then . . . you have the little question of, "If the Ark landed in the Middle East, and all the animals migrated from there,
a) How did the kangaroos manage to swim from South Asia to Australia?
b) Why are there no kangaroos currently living between the Middle East and Australia?
c) Why are there so many species found only in isolated spots all over the planet?

And then there's the question of, "What happened to all the fresh water fish when the salt water ocean covered the entire planet?" I'm sure you know what happens to fresh water fish when you put 'em in salt water--they die.


Again, the Noah's Ark story is absurd. Fine for kids to beleive, like Santa Claus, but adults need to be able to "grow up" and learn to deal with the real world. The next time a preacher tells you the story is fact, ask him How do you know that what you know is true?"

--Tock

Tock, yes you broke it down like you always do.
1) couldn't have said it any better, people do believe a lot of crazy stuff. Like anthropology, the big bang, and that hockey is worth watching . Crazy stuff, but hey, I aint judging. In my eyes, maybe not in others, it is crazy.
2) True, but that is faith once again. Faith in the unknown.
3) Also, it doesn't seem all that absurd. You do raise valid questions about the kangaroos. Exactly why Darwanism is so believable in that animals some how alter dna over time. But there are many unexplainable events that have occured. Where do viruses come from? They are unlike any other organism known. They only have a dna strand and no organelles. Where did that come from? You can't ask questions like that and then expect an honest answer. How, did earth end up where it did? It is in the perfect location that we aren't toasted, nor freezing. A little closer to the sun and our weather would be a desert wasteland, no water, or anything. A little further, and we would only have glaciers, no trees, so no atmosphere. Of course by little I mean a million miles but it seems too coincedence and perfect just for nothing to be involved in the creation.

Also, you asked about the salt water. Well, true, every fish, if it is in salt water, will die only if it was a fresh water fish to begin with. That is eaisly shown in nature. Take stripped bass. There is a lake in south carolina(I believe lake santee cooper) not for sure. Anyway, this lake was on the coastline and it's lake levels were determined by the tides. There were rice farmers along this lake and at certain times would loose their crops due to high tides. Well, the lake was brackish water, meaning half salt and half fresh and almost every species of fish in the area both salt and fresh could be found some where in the lake. Well, the army corps of engineres build a **** in the late 50's or early 60's to help out the rice farmers and trapped the stripped bass, orginally a salt water fish, in the newly found fresh water lake(fed by fresh water). Well, the fish thrived. It took a little while but as the level of salt diminished so the fish became adapted to fresh water. Because of that one lake, the entire country's major lakes are now stocked full of stripped bass. Also, a species of catfish thrived in the fresh water and is now found in every lake in the country. Some fish did not adapt to the new condition and died off, such as Darwin explains in his survival of the fittist(why can't I spell word? ) I read this in some "infisherman" when I was younger.
It can be done considering all the water was orginally salt water and through the process of evaporation, salt water fish would become affiliated with fresh water because of the rain. That of course doesn't prove the bible right but it answers your question.

[Wiggum]

yea, there were over 80 other gospels written by authors equally as reliable as the ones by matthew, mark, luke and john.... they all said that jesus was a normal (not divine) dude with some great ideas, and he was slamming mary magdeline...

also, the bible as we know it was engineered by constantine, a lifetime pagan who hired people to put the bible together in such a way that it fused early christian and pagan beliefs and rituals, to unite his empire...

proof of this is the Nicene Creed... In the early 5th century, the Council of Nicene met under the authority of the Holy Catholic church, bishops, theologians and pagan leaders met and VOTED on what was going to be in the bible and what wasnt.... those set of beliefs that catholics trumpet out at every mass as their Infalliable core set of beliefs were actually just ideas that got voted on by a bunch of bureaucrats.

I see a lot of people have read "The DaVinci Code". Great book and as a Catholic, it confirmed a lot of things I've thought about over the years. Naturally, I don't take things as truth right away but I always enjoy books that make me think or question. I agree with you guys that yes, the Bible cannot be considered historically correct. It was written by men for one. And authors have known to emphasize some subjects more than others to help their point of view. Overall, I think the Bible is meant to be a guide of sorts - morals, difference between right and wrong, things like that. It can't be taken literally but I think everyone should be exposed to it in one way or another. Simply for the fact that this is THE one book that has shaped history in many different ways.

[monstercojones]

I see a lot of people have read "The DaVinci Code". Great book and as a Catholic, it confirmed a lot of things I've thought about over the years. Naturally, I don't take things as truth right away but I always enjoy books that make me think or question. I agree with you guys that yes, the Bible cannot be considered historically correct. It was written by men for one. And authors have known to emphasize some subjects more than others to help their point of view. Overall, I think the Bible is meant to be a guide of sorts - morals, difference between right and wrong, things like that. It can't be taken literally but I think everyone should be exposed to it in one way or another. Simply for the fact that this is THE one book that has shaped history in many different ways.

most of what is in there wasnt a reault of the da vinci code, i actually didnt read the book until i ranted about religion to my friend danielle and she gave it to me... its a good read, with many valuable historical references, i just think dan brown isnt that great of a writer, he's pretty cheesy.

[monstercojones]

OK moses...
here goes

imagine that you're one of 50,000 or so slaves. you get beaten, tortured, and worked to the bone everyday, busting your as s building giant headstones for some king that just persecutes you. there is no moral code, and no religion to speak of... besides the egyptian sun gods and such. the only authority you answer to is a whip. hell, if you scrrew up, they dont put you in jail... they take away your straw so it takes longer to make the bricks for the pyramids and makes them heavier.

its a rough life....


all of a sudden, for whatever reason.... you're released out into the desert.

what happens?

no police.

no army.

no king.

no moral code to speak of.

no religion.

those who murder, rape, pillage and steal the most and most efficiently are the ones getting ahead. there is no security... everything is in anarchy. moses looks around and sees this, and gets totally cheesed off that he cant take a nap without being afraid of getting his throat slit. so he climbs a mountain during a thunderstorm and chips out 10 rules that are perfect for society to function.

so he mosey's (no pun intended) down the mountain and gives them to the people. "here guys, i have this great set of morally responsible rules for you, listen to me" "F*CK YOU MOSES! We dont have to listen to you. What authority do you have?"

"Well, i dont have an army, or a police force, and i cant even claim that i will know if you violate these rules. But i have a god. and this god knows all, and if he sees you breaking these rules, he wont whip you. oh no. its much bigger than that. ever wondered what happens to you when you die? well, this god puts you in eternal paradise if you listen to my rules here. if you Fck up, well, you're going to be in alotttt of pain forever, you dumb mother Fockers. You don't believe me? did you see the lightning hit those trees up there? yea, that was him talking to me. thats how powerful he is. stupid yokels. I'm in charge now."

the logic here isnt too hard to follow... if the jews had continued to rape, pillage, murder and steal from each other, they simply would have consumed themselves and died out. these rules, along with a god to justify them, were essential to their survival.

we created god. and now he's outdated....

[LuvMuhRoids]

Very very nice. You must have studied theology or philosphy. I like this analogy or interpretation. I agree with it.

OK moses...
here goes

imagine that you're one of 50,000 or so slaves. you get beaten, tortured, and worked to the bone everyday, busting your as s building giant headstones for some king that just persecutes you. there is no moral code, and no religion to speak of... besides the egyptian sun gods and such. the only authority you answer to is a whip. hell, if you scrrew up, they dont put you in jail... they take away your straw so it takes longer to make the bricks for the pyramids and makes them heavier.

its a rough life....


all of a sudden, for whatever reason.... you're released out into the desert.

what happens?

no police.

no army.

no king.

no moral code to speak of.

no religion.

those who murder, rape, pillage and steal the most and most efficiently are the ones getting ahead. there is no security... everything is in anarchy. moses looks around and sees this, and gets totally cheesed off that he cant take a nap without being afraid of getting his throat slit. so he climbs a mountain during a thunderstorm and chips out 10 rules that are perfect for society to function.

so he mosey's (no pun intended) down the mountain and gives them to the people. "here guys, i have this great set of morally responsible rules for you, listen to me" "F*CK YOU MOSES! We dont have to listen to you. What authority do you have?"

"Well, i dont have an army, or a police force, and i cant even claim that i will know if you violate these rules. But i have a god. and this god knows all, and if he sees you breaking these rules, he wont whip you. oh no. its much bigger than that. ever wondered what happens to you when you die? well, this god puts you in eternal paradise if you listen to my rules here. if you Fck up, well, you're going to be in alotttt of pain forever, you dumb mother Fockers. You don't believe me? did you see the lightning hit those trees up there? yea, that was him talking to me. thats how powerful he is. stupid yokels. I'm in charge now."

the logic here isnt too hard to follow... if the jews had continued to rape, pillage, murder and steal from each other, they simply would have consumed themselves and died out. these rules, along with a god to justify them, were essential to their survival.

we created god. and now he's outdated....

[chicamahomico]

I dunno......to be the bible seems more like "chicken soup for the soul" from 800 years ago than an accurate historical work.

[Red Ketchup]

I dunno......to be the bible seems more like "chicken soup for the soul" from 800 years ago than an accurate historical work.

I think you just summarized my thoughts in one simple sentence...

Years and years of schooling with the catholic brothers has made me into a hardcore atheist. I see the bible as a "nice story" with some nice feel good messages in it, but to me it's no more real than "Thomas the Tank engine" or "Alice in wonderland"

And even if I am 100% wrong, even if Moses, Noah or Jesus did exist, always remember that ALL BOOKS ARE WRITTEN BY PEOPLE and people are only human... they make mistakes, they get creative, they interpret events according to their level of knowledge... or their political agenda...

Red

[tryingtogetbig]

I do pose this thought to all:

How can believing in a "God" and participating in a religion (again, see my post above regarding organized religion) that makes you a better person and a better person towards mankind hurt you any?

peace,

ttgb

[scottninpo]

I do pose this thought to all:

How can believing in a "God" and participating in a religion (again, see my post above regarding organized religion) that makes you a better person and a better person towards mankind hurt you any?

peace,

ttgb

because it limits your abiblity to be a free thinker, religions tell you what to think and how to act

[tryingtogetbig]

because it limits your abiblity to be a free thinker, religions tell you what to think and how to act

Please don't confuse "believing in a higher power" and "organized religion" when addressing the question I posed. There is a BIG difference.

peace,

ttgb

[monstercojones]

Please don't confuse "believing in a higher power" and "organized religion" when addressing the question I posed. There is a BIG difference.

peace,

ttgb

i believe in a higher power.... i feel that atheism is equally as flawed as subscribing to any specific religion.

if what you were referring to in your earlier post was an ambiguous higher power, and no specific religion, then i agree that it is not harmful, in fact it is beneficial...

[tryingtogetbig]

i believe in a higher power.... i feel that atheism is equally as flawed as subscribing to any specific religion.

if what you were referring to in your earlier post was an ambiguous higher power, and no specific religion, then i agree that it is not harmful.

hhmmmmm.....so it is more comfortable for you to say "I believe in a higher power" than it is to say "I believe in God"......please elaborate.

[Tock]

i believe in a higher power.... i feel that atheism is equally as flawed as subscribing to any specific religion.

Consider the difference between
Moral and Amoral. One is associated with ethics, the other is without ethics.
Tonal and Atonal, as in music. One is centered around a definite note, the other is without a reference tone.
Political and Apolitical. One involves public affairs, the other is not.

The "A" in Atheism distinguishes it from Theism in the same way. The "A" acts as a "privitive," changes the word Theism (religious belief) to Atheism (lack of religious belief).

So, since an atheist is merely a person without any beliefs in any religious ideas (as are all infants, and many adults), there are no ideas which can be scrutinized and deemed "flawed."

Some folks are of the opinion that atheists "beleive there is no god." Nothing can be further from the truth. An atheist does not beleive there is no god, and atheist doesn't beleive in any god. Present a rational atheist with reasonable proof that there is (which has yet to be done) and he will be persuaded.
Subtle, but significant difference.

-Tock

[scottninpo]

Please don't confuse "believing in a higher power" and "organized religion" when addressing the question I posed. There is a BIG difference.

peace,

ttgb

i agree with you, that's why i pointed out religions

[Grant]

because it limits your abiblity to be a free thinker, religions tell you what to think and how to act

you pick a religion, you don't follow it blindly

[monstercojones]

I do pose this thought to all:

How can believing in a "God" and participating in a religion (again, see my post above regarding organized religion) that makes you a better person and a better person towards mankind hurt you any?

peace,

ttgb

it restricts what you can and cannot do, as well as allows for some pretty serious faux pas'.... the crusades, inquisition, the murdering of scientists back in the middle ages, indulgences, and even some thickheaded people's refusal to believe in darwinian theory...

this is not even limited to christianity... look at the way women are treated in the middle east, because of the perversion of religion... in africa infants are raped at an alarming rate because there is a religious myth that sex doesnt give you aids, god gives you aids, and the only cure is to have sex with a virgin...

thats how religion hurts you.

[tryingtogetbig]

...thats how religion hurts you.

Again, more specifically worded this time..."How does believing in a higher power that makes ME a better person, and a better person to mankind, hurt ME?"

peace,

ttgb

[Tock]

Again, more specifically worded this time..."How does believing in a higher power that makes ME a better person, and a better person to mankind, hurt ME?"

peace,

ttgb

As long as the belief does not impair your ability to make rational decisions, no, it wouldn't hurt at all.
If the belief helps you through times of pain and sorrow, then I would say it becomes a benefit.
Usually, though, when two or more people get together and start an organization based on a particular belief, then things inevitably change from personal opinions to religious dogma.
--Tock

[tryingtogetbig]

When they go forcing their beliefs down your throat & spew threats at you about how you're gonna burn in Hell, unless you save yourself. Even worse, some of them come to your door to force the Gospel on you...in your own friggin' home!!!

Again, more specifically worded this time..."How does believing in a higher power that makes ME a better person, and a better person to mankind, hurt ME?"

peace,

ttgb

[tryingtogetbig]

1.)Let me ask you, does believing in God alone make you a better person?

Nothing alone in itself makes me who I am. But believing in a higher power definitely makes me respect life more and a better person overall.

Is it possible to be a better person to mankind if you choose not to practice a religion?

Anything is possible. And again, please remember that I am talking about believing in an existence of a higher power, not neceesarily organized religion as a whole.

peace,

ttgb