HCG - How important is it?

[Swifto]

I know it states that it is just speculation, but in the profiles page: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=199847 it states:

"As stated above the cycles of HCG should be in the 2 to 3 week range with a least one month off in between, you could stretch your cycle out to four weeks without any major concern if you are using lower doses. One should however take care when using HCG as prolonged use could repress the body’s natural production of gonadotropins permanently, but this is mostly just pure speculation as it does not have yet to be reported nor has there been a case of an overdose. To be on the safe side shorter cycles of HCG seem to be that of the norm. Most users cycle HCG near the end of a steroid cycle, you should start your HCG therapy on the last week of your cycle. For best results you should also run nolva while you run HCG as taking HCG by itself will do little to nothing and gyno even though rare may also flair up. Once the HCG cycle is finished you continue with your usual clomid or nolvadex (preferably the latter) for pct as it is more effective when used in conjunction HCG for pct. With an AAS cycle of 6 to 10 weeks HCG may not be necessary unless extreme doses of AAS were used or there is an existing problem of testicular atrophy or you are running a heavy oral only cycle. AAS cycles of 12 or more weeks should have HCG as a part of post cycle plan."

I'm wondering if the cycling of HCG should still be implemented in order to keep from desensitizing too much? I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just doing as much research as I can and saw 2 conflicting theories. I just want to know all angles of thought as to why I put different things in my body in the hopes of having the most successful and least long/short term side cycle I can. I like all the benefits listed in your theory, but wanted to check on the one possible downside I read about. As stated in my previous post, I'm in week 2 of my cycle and I am about to start the HCG protocol you listed, but I would like to know if I should cycle off the HCG for a couple weeks in the middle of the cycle?

Thanks

No, you should not cycle off of it.

If you do, the testes are no longer being directly stimulated via the HCG and testicular dysfunction may begin to set it. This is when recovery become harder.

My thread and facts on HCG have been compilled from doctors in the field (Endocrinologists), such as Dr.Crisler. The Profile on the main page is probably written by Anthony Conners (Roberts) who has no qualifications in this field at all.

[BBall6]

No, you should not cycle off of it.

If you do, the testes are no longer being directly stimulated via the HCG and testicular dysfunction may begin to set it. This is when recovery become harder.

My thread and facts on HCG have been compilled from doctors in the field (Endocrinologists), such as Dr.Crisler. The Profile on the main page is probably written by Anthony Conners (Roberts) who has no qualifications in this field at all.

What you've said makes sense to me and since the profile section never even stated what constitutes as "prolonged" and that it was just speculation about permanent repression, I will dose the HCG throughout my cycle at the 500iu/wk regimen dosed twice a week.

As far as HCG in general is concerned, how do you know when it has gone bad? I've heard they last about a month with bacteriostatic water when refrigerated which means I will need to use 2 of my vials to get me my 9 wks out of it.

[Swifto]

What you've said makes sense to me and since the profile section never even stated what constitutes as "prolonged" and that it was just speculation about permanent repression, I will dose the HCG throughout my cycle at the 500iu/wk regimen dosed twice a week.

As far as HCG in general is concerned, how do you know when it has gone bad? I've heard they last about a month with bacteriostatic water when refrigerated which means I will need to use 2 of my vials to get me my 9 wks out of it.

HCG will just begin to lose effectiveness. I've never had any gone bad.

Dose it at 250ius 2x per week throughout.

[xephonics]

Ok I found a decent source to order hcg.

3 questions:

Would it be worth it if i can only get it during the last 1-2 weeks of my cycle, or is it already too late? And if not too late, how much would I shoot, and how long would I do it for?

It comes in a 5000iu ampule, how would I store it? I mean after you break an ampule it is not really sanitary to store, would I need to order some empty vials from ar-r, or some other way I am not aware of?

[Hazard]

Ok I found a decent source to order hcg.

3 questions:

Would it be worth it if i can only get it during the last 1-2 weeks of my cycle, or is it already too late? And if not too late, how much would I shoot, and how long would I do it for?

It comes in a 5000iu ampule, how would I store it? I mean after you break an ampule it is not really sanitary to store, would I need to order some empty vials from ar-r, or some other way I am not aware of?

What's your cycle? If you're running Test E and you have 2 weeks of injections left..... that means you have about 4 weeks to use HCG still. I would run it if I had it.

500iu's 3x a week for the 1st two weeks..... then for the next two weeks, while your waiting for the enanthate esther to clear, i'd run 250iu's 3x a week.

I store it in a sterile vial in the refridgerator.

~Haz~

[BBall6]

What's your cycle? If you're running Test E and you have 2 weeks of injections left..... that means you have about 4 weeks to use HCG still. I would run it if I had it.

500iu's 3x a week for the 1st two weeks..... then for the next two weeks, while your waiting for the enanthate esther to clear, i'd run 250iu's 3x a week.

I store it in a sterile vial in the refridgerator.

~Haz~

Yeah xephonics, do what Haz suggested. That is the way a majority of the people used to take HCG according to the research/reading I have done. I do like Swiftos idea better if you have it through the whole cycle, but doing a heavier dose at the end would still be better than nothing.

[Hazard]

I do like Swiftos idea better if you have it through the whole cycle, but doing a heavier dose at the end would still be better than nothing.

Just to be clear..... I would prefer it that way also..... but since he is already near the end of his cycle..... I've laid out what he can do to try and make recovery easier at this point.

~Haz~

[BBall6]

Just to be clear..... I would prefer it that way also..... but since he is already near the end of his cycle..... I've laid out what he can do to try and make recovery easier at this point.

~Haz~

I realize that, I was just throwing my $.02 in there too

[Turin]

I just got my HCG pack today,

Package says:
Essex Pharma: Predalon 5000 I.E.

It comes in a packet with 6 ampules, 3x powders and 3x 1ml liquids.

I have never done a HCG run before and I am not very savvy on I.E. and unit measurements, so I just want to make sure I understand this correctly.

If each ampule is 5000i.e. and that is 1ml ... A ml syringe is broken down into 10 units... If I want a 500i.e. injection that is 1 unit mark on the syringe correct?

A 1ml syringe is frickin small and measuring out 1 unit is not bad but some people were saying 250i.e. .. thats half a unit measurement, I would have to get some pretty tiny syringes to get that drawn correctly.

Do I have this straight or am I completely wrong? I dont want to draw up and inject the wrong dosage of this stuff..

Also people mentioned storage, can someone gives some details on how to safely store the remaining content? ... Can I just draw it all into one syringe and store it in that? (not inj. from that same one of course)..

[Swifto]

I just got my HCG pack today,

Package says:
Essex Pharma: Predalon 5000 I.E.

It comes in a packet with 6 ampules, 3x powders and 3x 1ml liquids.

I have never done a HCG run before and I am not very savvy on I.E. and unit measurements, so I just want to make sure I understand this correctly.

If each ampule is 5000i.e. and that is 1ml ... A ml syringe is broken down into 10 units... If I want a 500i.e. injection that is 1 unit mark on the syringe correct?

A 1ml syringe is frickin small and measuring out 1 unit is not bad but some people were saying 250i.e. .. thats half a unit measurement, I would have to get some pretty tiny syringes to get that drawn correctly.

Do I have this straight or am I completely wrong? I dont want to draw up and inject the wrong dosage of this stuff..

Also people mentioned storage, can someone gives some details on how to safely store the remaining content? ... Can I just draw it all into one syringe and store it in that? (not inj. from that same one of course)..

Get some sterile 10ML empty vials and some extra sterile bac. water. You can get them from AR-R. Then mix the 5000ius with 10ML of bac. water. 1ML = 500ius HCG.

[xephonics]

I have till oct 30th (my final test inj), but the hcg will take about 2 weeks to arrive.

Yes it is test E

and thx for the other info

[Hazard]

I have till oct 30th (my final test inj), but the hcg will take about 2 weeks to arrive.

Yes it is test E

and thx for the other info

If you receive your HCG around october 5th you'll still have time. I'd use it as i have outlined above. 2 weeks of 500iu's 3x per week and then 250iu's 3x a week up until PCT

~Haz~

[xephonics]

thanks

[skyjumper]

Great post thanks for the info

[Hazard]

Great post thanks for the info

Yeah swifto's full of good stuff..... no homo

~Haz~

[BJJ]

thank you both of you.

[Hazard]

Hey swifto..... maybe you can help with this. I'll attach the link for a thread where HCG and prolactin came up..... any info would be awesome......

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=402239

[Swifto]

bump...

[marcus300]

bump

[wrathchild212]

I just started my 12week cycle today (first injection)..i am doing sustanon 500 - 750mgs with deca 400mgs..should i immediatley start HCG at lets say 250IU's 2 x a week ?
and i would run it until a day before PCT am i right?

[Swifto]

I just started my 12week cycle today (first injection)..i am doing sustanon 500 - 750mgs with deca 400mgs..should i immediatley start HCG at lets say 250IU's 2 x a week ?
and i would run it until a day before PCT am i right?

Yes.

With an AI.

[Skippa]

Yes.

With an AI.

I read a very interesting article stating

"For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 100iu hCG ED starting 7 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone."


Can you please check this article out swifto and get back to me about your thoughts. It made alot of sense to me and help me understand HCG's use in bodybuilding.

Let me know...

Cheers

http://dangilliland.wordpress.com/20...-bodybuilding/

[Swifto]

I read a very interesting article stating

"For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 100iu hCG ED starting 7 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone."


Can you please check this article out swifto and get back to me about your thoughts. It made alot of sense to me and help me understand HCG's use in bodybuilding.

Let me know...

Cheers

http://dangilliland.wordpress.com/20...-bodybuilding/

You can stop the HCG when you stop the long estered androgen, yes. As androgen levels begin to decline, LH/FSH will rise, but the hypothalamus needs to sense a near hypogondal levels for LH to activate.

Some ramp there HCG dose during this peroid and it seems to work, but I dont see the point if one has avoided testicular dysfunction and the testes are still functioning. Your only going to then risk desensitising the testes to endogenous LH.

There are many pro's/con's to stopping the HCG and ramping the HCG dose in the leading days running to PCT. See what works for you, but I think stopping the HCG a few days out from PCT is advised.

[Swifto]

bump

[J_SHOCK89]

I keep hearing all these wonders about HCG one I am running a cycle of 1000 mg a week of test for 10 weeks 400-500 mg a week of tren at week four i am going to run anadrol for 50 mg a day for the last 6 weeks and I am also runnin eq for the last 5 weeks at 500 mg a week when should i administer my HCG and should i take with chlomid also I heard after running high dosages of test E for a long period of time its good to run some prop for a few weeks at the end of it ne help would be great thanks guys.

[Swifto]

I keep hearing all these wonders about HCG one I am running a cycle of 1000 mg a week of test for 10 weeks 400-500 mg a week of tren at week four i am going to run anadrol for 50 mg a day for the last 6 weeks and I am also runnin eq for the last 5 weeks at 500 mg a week when should i administer my HCG and should i take with chlomid also I heard after running high dosages of test E for a long period of time its good to run some prop for a few weeks at the end of it ne help would be great thanks guys.

I'm not sure why you running long acting compounds like EQ for 5 weeks, your cycle may need some work. But I'm guessing you have atleast 10+ cycles under your belt if your using "100mg/wk Test"?

HCG is best used on cycle. At 250ius 2-3 times a week. If you were to start X amount of weeks in...Lets say over 5-6 weeks, a larger initial dose would be needed before reverting back to 250ius 2-3 times per week.

[syd-bloke]

Great post Swifto, could you do me a favor and help me out here?

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=404925

Thanks Champ

[michael tyson]

Bump

[SG2009]

So how important is HCG?

When our HPTA's are "shutdown" we have to distinguish between short-term inhibtion and long-term dysfunction.

Short-term inhibition of testosterone production comes primarily from negative feedback at the pituitary and hypothalamus, which reduces LH output. This could be described as a reduction in the signal to produce testosterone. This LH suppression recovers quickly.

However, with time, it leads to testicular dysfunction. Without LH from the pituitary, the testes atrophy from disuse. This testicular dysfunction could be described as a reduction in the responsiveness to a signal to produce testosterone.

The hypothalamus and pituitary seem to recover fairly quickly following the use of androgens. GnRH, LH and FSH rise fairly quickly post cycle, but endogenous testosterone levels dont. As confirmed in this review by William Llewellyn. It shows that LH levels rise fairly quickly (on the 3rd week) after Testosterone Enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. So it seems the hypothalamus and pituitary are not the problem in restarting endogenous testosterone production post cycle.

After recent correspondance with Dr.Crisler (Swale) he confirmed ganadotrophin levels were not to blame in restarting the HPTA. So what is?

If LH levels rise post cycle (the majority of the time) the reason why endogenous testosterone levels DONT rise, is the testes. Or testicular dysfunction. Testicular dysfunction is when the testes become atrophied from disuse or desensitised to ganadotrophins, such as LH. This could also be described as being the onset of primary hypogonadism.

Primary hypogonadism is when the testes no longer respond to LH. The testes have a lowered sperm concentration/production and endogenous testosterone level, although LH and FSH are above normal levels. This can be due to desease (Klinefelter's syndrome), over use of anabolic steroids, as described in this study or overuse of HCG. The simple answer to primary hypogonadism is HRT.

So if the testes (testicular dysfunction) are the main culprit in restoring testosterone production post cycle how can we maintain testicular function and endogenous testosterone production even when "shutdown" using andorgens? Simple - HCG.

HCG has the ability to maintain endogenous testosterone production and ITT (Intra-Testicular Testosterone) by stimulating the testes (directly) even when shutdown from androgens, such as Testosterone Enathate, shown in this study.

HCG is VERY important in cycles IMHO. It prevents the main reason the HPTA doesnt recover immediately post cycle - testicular dysfunction. It should be a staple of EVERY cycle causing shutdown IMHO.

I suggest HCG be used at 125-250ius 2-3 times weekly (as per Dr.Crisler's advice) with an AI throughout the cycle. This will maintain testicular size and function and prevent testicular dysfunction. It should also be noted that administering over "500ius will cause an increase in estrogen and progesterone, further hindering recovery" - Dr.Crisler.


For those wanting to convert their HCG doses into something more managable. Here's how:

HCG comes in 1500ius and 5000ius amps. Usually from Pregnyl. Chinese suppliers also stock their HCG in these two denominations too.

You need to get some sterile empty 10ML glass serum vials. You can get these from AR-R.

You also need to get some bac. water. If you were to mix 5000ius with 10ML bac. water, 1ML = 500ius. If you were to mix 1500ius with 10ML bac. water, 1ML = 150ius.

Once mixed, refridgerate. I tend to use my mixed HCG within 30-45 days.

Its really that simple.


This thread has been written on correspondance from Dr.Crisler (Swale), Concilliator and my own research gathered.

great info. thanks for posting it here.

[Swifto]

bump

[Indian Muscle]

Currently on week 4 of this cycle:-

Week 1-8 Deca, 200mgs per week in one shot (Monday)
Week 1-8 Sust, 500mgs per week in two shots (Sunday & Thursday)
Week 9-10 Sust,250 mgs per week (Monday)
Week 11-12 PCT of Nolva and Clomid

When would i start HCG and at what dose? Please help

[KimboHalfSlice]

I would have started taking hCG by Week 4 at the latest.

I suggest you take 200iu of hCG every 2nd day.

Here's some instructions I posted earlier today: http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...5&postcount=29

[Indian Muscle]

I would have started taking hCG by Week 4 at the latest.

I suggest you take 200iu of hCG every 2nd day.

Here's some instructions I posted earlier today: http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...5&postcount=29

I agree with you on this and this is what i had planned but got confused because of the suggestion given on this thread http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...&postcount=227

[KimboHalfSlice]

I agree with you on this and this is what i had planned but got confused because of the suggestion given on this thread http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...&postcount=227

No no no, that's bad advice.

You have the two following choices:
1) Use hCG to stop your balls going out of action in the first place
2) Use hCG to give your balls a kick start when they've already shrunken and withered

The first option is far more preferable. Of course, for people who have shrunken balls, it will help to take hCG, but the best thing to do is take hCG while on-cycle to minimise testicular damage.

I started a thread about this recently: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=405967

[dec11]

i see he's gone off the idea of mixing it in a vial with test lol

[Swifto]

I prefer sub-q.

[michael tyson]

I have read all of the stickies and all the posts on HCG from this forum. I am still unsure the best way to spread out my 5000iu kit I will be receiving. I would like to take it throughout this cycle.

Weeks
1-12 test E 600mg
1-10 deca 400mg
1-7 dbol 50mg/ED
10-13 winny 50mg/ED

14-17 PCT(nolv, clomid)

Swifto, your thoughts are much appreciated.

[audis4]

Can someone tell me other than, it's counter productive why not to include HCG in PCT?

[KimboHalfSlice]

Can someone tell me other than, it's counter productive why not to include HCG in PCT?

hCG has the same effect as Leutinising Hormone (LH) which is produced in your pituitary gland.

If you are using hCG to do the job that LH should be doing, then your body will reduce the amount of LH it produces.

If you stop taking hCG, then that will actually give your body a reason to step up its production of LH.

The whole point of PCT is to wean yourself off all the drugs you've been taking and to get yourself back to exactly the way you were (with a little more muscle!). That means that you should be getting rid of the hCG and letting your body do things by itself with its own LH.

[audis4]

hCG has the same effect as Leutinising Hormone (LH) which is produced in your pituitary gland.

If you are using hCG to do the job that LH should be doing, then your body will reduce the amount of LH it produces.

If you stop taking hCG, then that will actually give your body a reason to step up its production of LH.

The whole point of PCT is to wean yourself off all the drugs you've been taking and to get yourself back to exactly the way you were (with a little more muscle!). That means that you should be getting rid of the hCG and letting your body do things by itself with its own LH.

excellent! thanks almond!