$BAM-7246~AR-Hall of Famer
You can run the gyno reversal during a cycle, if you are in PCT let the PCT play out fully, then run the gyno reversal after and than again use some nolva to prevent a rebound effect. If you are worried about gyno getting worse during PCT than use letro at a small dose of .25 or .5mg ED during PCT, it will help to raise test levels anyways.Originally Posted by speakerman
$BAM-7246~AR-Hall of Famer
This is a very hard question, most people will jump up and say NOPE y ou cant get gyno again, however some plastic surgeons say it is possible. I havent had the surgery so personal experience is out the window on this one. It is hard to imagine how gyno could come back if there is no gland for the estrogen to bind to. However, say you have the surgery and then run many cycles and never run an AI or SERM, with all of that estrogen floating around in your body you have to wonder what would happen.
A lot of gynecomastia is just defined as male breasts and is actually fixed with lipo-suction believe it or not, and nothing to do with the gland. THis is the case for obese people and the likes. With this in mind I think that having so much estrogen could induce more bodyfat to be stored and a puffier appearance and "obese" case of gyno could set it. You may not have the hard gland behind your nipple but still a nice pair of breasts.
I would say to be safe keep running your AI's when you cycle, this will help to reduce bloat etc anyways so it cant hurt.
I wrote an e-mail to a plastic surgeon asking his opinion, if the bastard (j/k) ever gets back to me I will post his response bro.
Anabolic Member
im going to a surgeon tomorrow to talk about my gyno and the surgery, im gonna tell him about the juice and ask him if the gyno could come back if i keep using it. ill post his answer tomorrow.
$BAM-7246~AR-Hall of Famer
Good stuff man, sounds good...Be SURE to tell him you are using or thinking or using steroids. That way we know for sure what his thoughts are for this situation. Thanks bro.
Anabolic Member
well i just got home, here´s what i have to tell:
he asked me why i wanted surgery so i told him that i had a lil bit of gyno since puberty but it grew a bit more after my first cycle, i saw a smile on his face and he asked me if ive been using dbols (that smile + dbol comment coz he probably thought i was some idiot dbol only guy). anywho i said no i used testosterone etc etc, he said ok. he checked them and told me that the price would be about 1000$ more than i thought (so im fuvkin pissed right now). i asked him how they would remove the gland etc etc and if they would remove the entire gland, he said no we never remove the entire gland, we live a small piece behind for movement.. (movement, wtf?) and i asked him if it could come back if i used roids again, he said it could come back but he didnt think so and also told me about 'the dangers of steroids on ur liver' lol. so all in all i didnt find out anything useful and i lost 50 bucks on the damn visit.
ANYONE WHOS HAD THE SURGERY DONE, DID U REMOVE THE ENTIRE GLAND??? i think my surgeon is a dumbass
Junior Member
bino! im on a stack of 500 mg test e per week. i unfortunately got gyno from my first badly adviced stack (followed one of the model stacks on steroid.com before i found this forum).
was taking .5mg per day of letrozole for 2 weeks before this stack, began 5 weeks ago, and noticed puffyness around nipples and the lumps were gradually got bigger. have now been takin 2.5 mg per day for around a week and cant say ive noticed the puffyness go away...if anything its continued to get worse
this is odd! can you suggest anything?! thanks
"Vanity Redefined" ~VET~
i would just ike to say that i am thankful for my gyno which gave me nice perky breast, allowing me to steal my current gf away from her old gf (she was lesboish)
New Member
Gyno Question
I have never taken a cycle before and have gyno, will letro work for me even though i am not a hardcore bodybuilder. Im 5"6 and 1/2 tall and my current weight is 178. I am getting back into lifting again and havent worked out with determination for a year? And should I take anything before or after using Letro?
Educate B4 U Medicate
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Anabolic Member
thnx c bino
New Member
Anyone use Letro from ***? I should have some from *** around Friday. I'll run the reversal procedure while staying on my Pheraplex cycle. Then once it's reversed I'll stay at .25mg/Day until end of cycle, then I have enough Nolva to run 40/40/20. Will that be enough Nolva? I figured that would still work fine since I'll be coming out of alot of Letro use and I figure my LH and such willl already be raised from the Letro?
$BAM-7246~AR-Hall of Famer
Ya thats sounds fairly good
i would personally run nolva 6 weeks for PCT. Thats my routine but its not the best way, do what works for you.
New Member
If I don't have a way of measuring the letro does anyone know how much is put out per spray pump?
$BAM-7246~AR-Hall of Famer
If its from AR-R than ist dosed at 2.5mg/mL...one pump is .1mL or .25mg.
New Member
THANKS FOR THE FAST REPLY!
Educate B4 U Medicate
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Educate B4 U Medicate
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Educate B4 U Medicate
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Junior Member
bumpedy bump
New Member
Just want to chime in here.
I ordered some Letro and followed C_Bino's advice and the gyno that I was experiencing is definitely going away.
Although it's not completely gone it's to the point where I'm not freaking out anymore.
The lump is almost gone johnson...
Thanks man!
$BAM-7246~AR-Hall of Famer
Glad to hear that man, and thanks for updating us with the info. Always good to hear back about these things.
Senior Member
hey bro, you should get paid for YOUR info. seems that you are helping alot of members with their tities problems.GREAT POST>
New Member
Yeah this is all very helpful. How many days at the 2.5mg dose is it taking most people to reverse their problem?
Also, I stopped my own cycle at 2 weeks instead of 4... because my issue was really mild I think... and I am running Nolva for 3 weeks. I figured the mild gyno symptoms may subside during the Nolva... but I did buy Letro. If the gyno is still there after this 3-week PCT, will that 3-week delay have hurt my chances much of Letro helping?
Associate Member
well i've been at 2.5 for 3 weeks now and the lump ( which started off HUGE) is now almost gone. * crosses fingers* the c_bino letro post isnt b.s. , if you're reading this and having doubts about using letro to reverse gyno, dont.
i'm just updating so ppl can know that letro is the real deal! i hope the gyno to be gone in the next 2 weeks. but i heard of ppl getting rid of it faster, keep in mind, my gyno was getting pretty bad before the use of letro.
c_bino u da man, i'll let u know once the lump is completely gone. and ya, u should be rewarded for this thread.
$BAM-7246~AR-Hall of Famer
Three weeks isnt too bad at all to wait. You could start using it in the third week of the pct to get it in your system and then pyramid the dose up once you stop using the nolva, as it will help to raise Test levels in your PCT as well. I would suggest getting blood work done to test your levels just in case to be sure everything is going well since your PCT isnt going to be that long man.
LOL. Thanks man, your a joker.
Thanks big guy for the update. I got my fingers crossed that it all works out in the end for you.
New Member
Ok, I have started my cycle 3 weeks ago and have gyno. I purchased some letro and started taking it today acording to Bino's thread. Good info, definatly helped me not worry as much. The question I have is should I continue on my cycle or stop until the gyno is gone. Acording to my doctor if I get off then it should go away on its own. I would rather finish my cycle if it is safe. Thanks for the help
$BAM-7246~AR-Hall of Famer
Your doctor isnt necessarily wrong but hes not 100% right either. Yes, sometimes existing gyno will go away on its own, but whenever I hear about this, it is USUALLY ALWAYS in the case of pubertal gyno, not gyno brought on by AAS use. Run your letro and you CAN start another cycle, thats fine.
New Member
I'll do what you say is best for my body, but I have a question. I only ran PP for 2 weeks... and I'm a little over a week into Nolva now. I'd like to run Letro after my Nolva to see if I can reverse a little lumpiness.
Anyway, if I run Letro, then take a break before another cycle... I'll use Nolva post-letro, and post-cycle for the next cycle... requiring me to buy 2 more bottles of Nolva. However, if you think it is safe (given how short this last cycle was), I could just buy one bottle Nolva, go straight into Letro after this PCT, run letro at 2.5 until gyno is gone, then drop to .25 or .50 and start a 4-week PP cycle, running the Letro all the way through and doing a Nolva PCT after.
Thoughts?
Associate Member
i know clomid and nolva bring ur natural test levels back up in pct. nolva being alot more powerful mg/mg. but how well does letro bring ur naturals test levels up? bino, u told me it brings ur natural levels back up but kills the sex drive ( so true), i was wondering how well compared to nolva.
Banned
sticky
Junior Member
how long does letro usually take? Ive been on it for almost two weeks.. This is off cycle and pct.. should i continue? The gyno has not got any better nor worse... but the letro is making me tired as hell and its getting fugging annoying. Also, can you run a cycle with gyno and still use letro to combat your current gyno?
Banned
Fans of letro, that study may interest you
Febuary 2006, Muscular Development
Boosting Testosterone via Aromatase Inhibition by Dan Gwartney, MD
Double-dipping is a term used in the business world and refer to situations that provide additional revenue with no addition work. An example of double-dipping is a waste recycler charging a customer to pick up sorted trash (paper, aluminum, etc.) and then selling the materials to a recycling plant for additional income. Though the extra income rarely doubles the amount of money generated, it always improves the companies bottom line. Wise business operators always look for ways to double-dip. In many cases, the benefits go even further. Consider the waste company- not only have they generated two sources of income from the same operation, but they’ve decreased they’re cost by not having to pay dump fees for recycled waste.
Double-Dipping In Bodybuilding
There are rare opportunities for double-dipping in bodybuilding as well. Human growth hormone (GH) offers double-dipping effects of both fat burning and building lean mass. Clenbuterol has a mildly anabolic effect, but is also a potent thermogenic agent. Clearly, combining both anabolic and lipolytic (fat reducing) effects has made both of these drugs extremely popular among bodybuilders.
There’s another double-dipping opportunity that’s often overlooked. In part, this is due to the relatively new entrance of the latest generation of this class of products. Supply also effects their popularity; as well, they don’t provide as much bang for the buck as anabolic steroids. Regardless, this class of drug is still highly regarded and sought after among more experienced and sophisticated bodybuilders.
The class of drugs is aromatase inhibitors. Aromatase is a complex of enzymes that convert androgens (testosterone, androstenedione and many anabolic steroids) into estrogenic hormones. Estrogens are hormones that impart female characteristics, increase bone density, affect blood clotting and promote fat and water retention. Most bodybuilders are familiar with some of the effects with estrogens, causing bloating or gynecomastia (the development of breast tissue under the male nipple). There are two primary estrogens, estradiol and estrone, with estradiol (E2) being the more active of the two forms.
Prior to the development of the latest aromatase inhibitors, bodybuilders had few choices for reducing he estrogenic load of a cycle. Often, they tailored their cycles to include both aromatizing and non-aromatizing steroids, tapering down on the amount of the more effective (relative to mass and strength) aromatizing steroids if bloating arose. In preparation for competition, aromatizing steroids were often removed from the cycle to improve the hardened appearance onstage. If gynecomastia appeared, there were few effective options. Cytadren (aminoglutethimide) is a non-specific inhibitor of steroid formation. Though it was usually regarded as being a cortisol suppressing agent, it also had moderate anti-aromatase activity at low doses. Nolvadex (tamoxifen) is a mixed estrogen agonist-antagonist. Though tamoxifen did reduce gynecomastia in some cases, it worsened it in others. Tamoxifen also increases sex hormone binding globin, reducing the bioavailability or steroid hormones; it’s also been noted to increase estrogen levels ironically. Clomid (clomifene citrate) also works at the level of the estrogen receptor, but it’s use was usually reserved for restoring natural testosterone production at the end of a cycle.
Age-Related Testosterone Declines
Through medical science has no interest in bodybuilding, many discoveries relate to the sport. In the matter of aromatase inhibition, breast cancer research has been extremely valuable. Breast cancers are typically responsive to female sex hormones (estrogens and progesterone). Therapies that reduce estrogen levels in the body and especially tumors, have been actively investigated and developed by the pharmaceutical industry. This has resulted in the development of effective anti-aromatase drugs. Several drugs in this class have been developed, including the most recent generation of aromatase inhibitors, anastrazole and letrozole.
Bodybuilders are familiar with anastrazole and letrozole by the trade names Arimidex and Femera. Arimidex is more commonly encountered and has been used with great effectiveness in treating steroid-induced gynecomastia. It’s also believed to provide a tighter, harder appearance. Femera is less commonly encountered but is believed to be slightly more effective for the steroid-using bodybuilder.
Though most recent research on these drugs relates to breast cancer therapy, there have been several interesting studies on aromatase inhibition in human males. One such study was published in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, reporting some very interesting results. There were also several comments in the discussion that hold potential value to bodybuilding, though that aspect wasn’t addressed for obvious reasons.
The purpose of this study was to test whether the age-related decline in testosterone is due to an increased suppressive effect of estrogens on the hypothalamic-pituitary axis. To briefly review, natural testosterone production is regulated via a negative-feedback loop, involving the testes and two regions of the brain- the hypothalamus and the pituitary gland. Testosterone production occurs in the testes under the stimulation of a protein hormone released from the pituitary called leutinizing hormone (LH). LH, in turn, is released from the pituitary under stimulation from of the hypothalamic hormone called gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH). The hypothalamus is called the master gland because it monitors the body and regulates the activity of the endocrine glands and by means of its releasing hormones. In the case of testosterone, when the hypothalamus detects that androgen levels are too high, it temporarily shuts down GnRH release. When GnRH levels drop, the pituitary stops releasing LH and the testes are no longer stimulated to produce testosterone. Once the testosterone levels drop, GnRH surges, causing LH and subsequently testosterone levels to pick back up. For reasons not clearly understood, the body isn’t designed to maintain a steady level, even level of testosterone. Rather it produces testosterone in wave-like surges, with peaks and valleys in the blood levels of testosterone. Even more interesting is the fact that the hypothalamus doesn’t only detect testosterone, but it’s metabolites estradiol and dihydrotestosterone (DHT).
Altering Ratios
The researchers designed a study whereby they could measure whether older men were more sensitive to estrogen suppression of testosterone production as compared to young men. To test this, they measured several hormones, including LH and testosterone (T) in two groups of men, old versus young. It’s known that T production decrease with age, resulting in a 50 percent reduction of bioavailability T. It’s believed that this reduction is due to cellular changes in the regulatory function of the brain and the increased negative feedback (or suppression). It’s also known that aromatase activity increases with age ad overall fat content increases, combining to maintain estrogen levels even in the face of decreasing T levels. This results in remarkedly lower T:E ratio, with E representing estradiol levels. This altered ratio is likely responsible for many other changes experienced by men with age.
Initially, it appeared as though there was little difference between the two groups, as the older and younger men had similar LH and total T values. However, the older men had much higher sex hormone biding globin (SHBG), which traps circulating T, keeping it from being metabolized, but also preventing it from having and biological activity. This resulted in significantly lower free or bioavailability T level and markedly lower free T:free E ratios.
The subjects were then given 2.5 milligrams per day of leptosome (Femera) for 28 days and retested. The aromatase inhibitor produced “a remarkable and comparable elevation” of both GnRH and T in both groups. Letrozole increased LH and T 339 percent and 146 percent respectively in the younger group; LH and T increased 323 percent and 99 percent in the older group. Letrozole also reduced E levels by 46 percent in young men, and 62 percent in the older subjects. SHBG also dropped significantly in both groups, with the T:E and free T:free E ratios rising sharply in response.
Despite robust response to aromatase inhibition, the study failed to show any evidence in older men experiencing greater suppressive effect of estrogen on natural estrogens on natural testosterone production. In fact younger men demonstrated a greater response to aromatase inhibition relative to the suppressive effects of estrogens on the hypothalamus and pituitary gland. While it remains to be seen what accounts for the hormonal changes older men experience, it’s clear that inhibiting aromatase might restore some of the youthful hormonal values.
“Natural” Supraphysiologic Testosterone Levels
Thus far, the study has been valuable in that it clearly demonstrates that healthy men, both young and old, can safely tolerate short-term aromatase inhibition and experience hormonal changes that would be beneficial to those involved in bodybuilding. As noted earlier, there were several comments in the discussion that are note worthy of further regard.
One issue that impaired the study, but was very noteworthy was the observation that the effect of letrozole persisted for much longer than anticipated. Subjects were originally scheduled to have a 14-washout period, where they didn’t receive either drug or placebo before beginning the second phase of the study. However, after the 14-day break, it was discovered that the subjects who received letrozole were still experiencing the effects of the drug with markedly higher T. This is somewhat surprising , as letrozole has a half-life of approximately 2.5 days, so one would presume 14 days would be sufficient to eliminate the drug from the system. It’s possible that the daily dose regimen allows levels to build up higher than anticipated. In fact, a separate study looking at obese men with low T levels showed that 2.5 mg given three times a week was sufficient to restore normal T levels. It’s possible that letrozole wouldn’t need to be dosed daily to provide adequate protection against aromatization.
The degree of T elevation experienced by the younger and older men was quite pronounced. In fact, both groups ended up with T levels at or above the upper limit of normal for young men. This would suggest that suppressing aromatase could allow a steroid-free bodybuilder to experience “natural” supraphysiologic testosterone levels. This would be roughly equivalent to receiving 250 to 300 milligrams or testosterone enanthate per week.
Though the goal of aromatase inhibition is to reduce estrogen conversion of androgens, it’s not necessary to completely remove estrogens from the body. There are case reports of men and women who were born without and aromatase activity due to genetic mutation. These individuals are not particularly robust specimens. They are typically very tall (due to a failure to close growth plates of the bone), have fragile skeletons due to low bone mineral density and in the case of males, are fully mature sexually. Females experience pubertal failure with virilization (male characteristics- facial hair, clitor*****ly, etc). Males also have a macroorchidism, a term describing abnormally large testes. Thus, complete suppression of aromatase would not be of benefit to the bodybuilder long term.
Fourtunately, the degree of suppression appeared to be only partial in the letrozole study. Both groups still retained 40 to 50 percent of their original estrogen levels, though it remains to be seen if such values would lead to an increased risk of osteoporosis.
Reducing Side Effects, Increasing Testosterone
The authors compared the results of other aromatase inhibition studies in males, using either anastrazole (Arimidex) or leptosome (Femera). The estrogen-reducing effect seen in this study is in agreement with other letrozole studies. While anastrozole also has potent estrogen lowering effect, it’s potency is less than that of letrozole. Comparing several studies, using different dosing schedules, it appears that letrozole is capable of lowering estrogen levels 40 to 60 percent, while anastrozole (commonly dosed at one milligram per day)lowered estrogen 30 to 50 percent. It’s important to note that these figures represent blood levels and there’s some debate as to the importance of tissue levels, rather than circulating levels of estrogen. Even in that regard, letrozole is considered superior.
Also discussed were the comparable results between letrozole and clomiphene citrate (Clomid). Clomid is used at the end of cycles to aid in restoring natural testosterone production. In considering this comment, and the fact that Femera (letrozole) is used in some fertility drug procols, it appears that letrozole could be used in place of clomid for off-cycle recovery. This would be particularly beneficial when used along with human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG), as hCG is known to raise estrogen levels in men, eve as they are attempting to restore their testosterone producing ability.
An unrelated study suggested another mechanism whereby aromatase inhibition helps resolve feminizing side effects. In studying the cellular effects of aromatase inhibitors verses timeline on breast cancer cells, it was determined that aromatase inhibition led to a reduction or progesterone receptors in the tissue. In contrast, tamoxifen increased progesterone receptor density. Progesteron is another female steroid hormone, and is believed by some to be due for the uncommon cases of nandrolone-induced gynecomastia.
It remains unclear as to why older men suffer the hormonal changes associated with age. Certainly, it is known that older men have higher aromatase activity and greater fat mass leading to higher estrogen levels, higher SHBG leading to lower bioavailability of T, functional and cellular changes in the testes and brain leading to less orderly signaling and lower T response, and a greater degree of inhibition by DHT and T.
Though enhanced estrogenic suppression of the hypothalamus and pituitary isn’t the culprit causing older men to have lower testosterone and T:free E ratios, by suppressing estrogen formation through aromatase inhibition, many of the changes are corrected. For the bodybuilder, this is of significant note, as it proves once again the utility of class of drug for the steroid using bodybuilder and offers the non-steroid using bodybuilder an option to consider for increasing testosterone to mildly supraphsiologic levels. Aromatase inhibitors are on the banned substance list for the IOC (Olympics), so competitive athletes need to be aware of organizational restrictions.
Aromatase inhibitors give bodybuilders a chance to double-dip as the drug reduces estrogenic side effects and increases testosterone levels. By reducing SHBG, testosterone and other steroids would have a greater bioavailability though they would clear the system more quickly. Gynecomastia, water retention and fat accumulation could be more easily controlled.
While these effects are clearly attractive to bodybuilders, they also hold value to aging men. Hopefully, in the interest of the growing aging population, further research will be conducted to investigate the role of this class of drugs in combating the ravages of aging and age-associated diseases .
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Lot's of gyno up top!
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Associate Member
fast question bino, im still using letro to get rid of the lump and by the way its going it might be for a while. what do u recommend to get my test up a bit cuz im not feeling my normal horny-as-hell self? ( keep in mind i still didnt pct, so my test levels are REAL low) sex drive is WAY low and im thinking of using a bit or tribulus to boost it up, will this be bad while on letro??
$BAM-7246~AR-Hall of Famer
Run tribulus for sure, just look for 80% saponins. Nutrex puts out a good product imo.
Junior Member
i have a dosage question. i am gyno prone, and i expect to have full blown gyno on my cycle if i do not actively try to preclude it from occurring.
knowing this, i have procured .25mg femara tablets. if my recommended gyno prevention dosage is .25mg/day, how should i take the 2.5mg tablets?
should i break them in half and take 1+mg/day? what about taking half every other day? what about taking a full tablet every 4th or 5th day? what would you recommend?
also, how would i change my pct from my schedule listed below in my signature?
i am eliminating nolvadex and proviron completely, so would i discontinue using femara at the end of week 18 or 21? in other words, do i take both femara and clomid or stop femara when i start clomid?
thanks in advance.
sam
(-1) - 21 Nolvadex 20mg twice daily
(-1) - 18 Proviron 25mg twice daily
1 - 4 Dianabol 10mg four times daily
1 - 14 Deca 200mg twice weekly
1 - 15 Test Enanthate 250mg twice weekly
19 - 21 Clomid for PCT 300/100/50
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