Writer
Well...it's interesting to you and myself...and a few others...and it's the type of info I'm supposed to help provide here...but it's just not practical to her.Originally Posted by Jackman
Least hes straight forward
Alot of "how" is useful but the "why" is usually boring and interesting to guys like us...but not many others, I think.
Banned
yea dont want to confuse here moreWell...it's interesting to you and myself...and a few others...and it's the type of info I'm supposed to help provide here...but it's just not practical to her.
Alot of "how" is useful but the "why" is usually boring and interesting to guys like us...but not many others, I think.
Writer
Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2004(3):CD003186.
Antiplatelet agents and anticoagulants for hypertension.
Lip GY, Felmeden DC.
Haemostasis Thrombosis and Vascular Biology Unit, University Department of Medicine, City Hospital, Dudley Road, Birmingham, UK, B18 7QH.
BACKGROUND: Although elevated systemic blood pressure results in high intravascular pressure, the main complications, coronary heart disease (CHD), ischaemic strokes and peripheral vascular disease (PVD), are related to thrombosis rather than haemorrhage. Some complications related to elevated blood pressure, heart failure or atrial fibrillation, are themselves associated with stroke and thromboembolism. It therefore seemed plausible that use of antithrombotic therapy may be particularly useful in preventing thrombosis-related complications of elevated blood pressure. OBJECTIVES: To conduct a systematic review of the role of antiplatelet therapy and anticoagulation in patients with blood pressure, including those with elevations in both systolic and diastolic blood pressure, isolated elevations of either systolic or diastolic blood pressure, to address the following hypotheses: (i) antiplatelet agents reduce total deaths and/or major thrombotic events when compared to placebo or other active treatment; and (ii) oral anticoagulants reduce total deaths and/or major thromboembolic events when compared to placebo or other active treatment. SEARCH STRATEGY: Reference lists of papers resulting from this search, electronic database searching (MEDLINE, EMBASE, DARE), and abstracts from national and international cardiovascular meetings were studied to identify unpublished studies. Relevant authors of these studies were contacted to obtain further data. SELECTION CRITERIA: Randomised controlled trials (RCTs) in patients with elevated blood pressure were included if they were of at least 3 months in duration and compared antithrombotic therapy with control or other active treatment. DATA COLLECTION AND ANALYSIS: Data were independently collected and verified by two reviewers. Data from different trials were pooled where appropriate. MAIN RESULTS: The ATC meta-analysis of antiplatelet therapy for secondary prevention in patients with elevated blood pressure reported an absolute reduction in vascular events of 4.1% as compared to placebo. Data on the patients with elevated blood pressure from the 29 individual trials included in this meta-analysis was requested but could not be obtained. Three additional trials met the inclusion criteria and are reported on here. Acetylsalicylic acid (ASA, or Aspirin) did not reduce stroke or 'all cardiovascular events' compared to placebo in primary prevention patients with elevated blood pressure and no prior cardiovascular disease. Based on one large trial (HOT trial), ASA (Aspirin) taken for 5 years reduced myocardial infarction (ARR, 0.5%, NNT 200 for 5 years), increased major haemorrhage (ARI, 0.7%, NNT 154), and did not reduce all cause mortality or cardiovascular mortality. There was no significant difference between ASA and clopidogrel for the composite endpoint of stroke, myocardial infarction or vascular death in one trial (CAPRIE 1996). In two small trials warfarin alone or in combination with ASA did not reduce stroke or coronary events. REVIEWERS' CONCLUSIONS: For primary prevention in patients with elevated blood pressure, anti-platelet therapy with ASA (Aspirin)cannot be recommended since the magnitude of benefit, a reduction in myocardial infarction, is negated by a harm of similar magnitude, an increase in major haemorrhage. For secondary prevention in patients with elevated blood pressure (ATC meta-analysis: APTC 1994) antiplatelet therapy is recommended because the magnitude of the absolute benefit is many times greater. Warfarin therapy alone or in combination with aspirin in patients with elevated blood pressure cannot be recommended because of lack of demonstrated benefit. Glycoprotein IIb/IIIa inhibitors as well as ticlopidine and clopidogrel have not been sufficiently evaluated in patients with elevated blood pressure. Further trials of antithrombotic therapy with complete documentation of all benefits and harms are required in patients with elevated blood pressure.
Associate Member
WOW... havent read this post in a while and you really opened my eyes to alot of info hooker. Before I was jut reiterating everything I've read in the past. Lemme just clear a couple of things up for myself:
You can use clen for 12 weeks straight if after every three weeks (week 4, 8, etc) you take 50mg Benadryl everyday for the entire week?
If you still were to cycle clen with ephedrine you would still need to take the Benadryl every three weeks as stated before, right?
And one more question... Does it matter what kind of Benadryl formula you use... theres many different kinds and woud these have different effects on unblocking your receptor sites?
thanx for all your help hooker
Slayer
Writer
Yes....you can just keep using Benadryl every 3rd week (this is what has worked for me, 50-100mgs/night before bed every 3rd week, for the whole week). And yeah...cycling clen with ephedrine wouldn't change that...you'd still need to use the Benadryl.
I don't know what's in the different Benadryl formulas...I use the basic one:
Diphenhydramine HCL
And thats the one I've done my research on. I don't know what the other Benadryl formulas are...I don't use it for my allergies (I use Flonase).
Senior Member
aspirin is good for blood thinning effect. very benificial when you on ephedra and caffeine. without aspirin e/c is very dangerous and problably most causes of death has occured because of no asprin in the formula. take asprin please with it.
Female Member
WAIT! so now i have to use aspirin? but i already went to the pharmacy and bought benadryl!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHH... can someone PLEASE just tell me what i need. i DO NOT want to die!
Associate Member
Bro, the entire idea of aspirin being used to thin your blood doesn't hold up.
You seriously need to read up. Start at the post where I spoke of what the aspirin is used for. Then go to Hookers posts.
And what rock have you been under? When all that bad news was being brought out, and Ephedra was on the chopping block, the majority of the victims had heart problems. There may have been a few that were just plain stupid and used an astronomic amount.
Writer
Don't worry about the aspirin.
Female Member
ok so i have my ephedrine and my caffine pills.....now i have one person telling me to take aspirin and another telling me to take benadryl. which one should i choose?
Writer
Either way is fine...aspirin will extend the effects of the ephedrine and caffeine a bit.
Senior Member
please don't advice if you do not know. this is the reason people die from perfectly safe drugs. becuase of lack of knowledge!
quote by caltitude:
There isn't anything like ephedra. You have otc supplements out there that will speed your heart up, but not the same effects as ephedra. Secondly the reason they took it off the market is people don't know how to use it. If you take ephedrine then you should take asprin so it thins out your blood. That is why the best fat burning combo was ECA. Ephedrine and caffine to speed up your heart and the asprin to help pass the blood through your heart. Most people that took ephedrine didn't do that. Just like taking AAS, if you don't use it right you have bad side effects. Hence it being against the law.
please take aspirin if you like your heart! don't be a fool!
Writer
Aspirin is included in the ECA stack to potentiate (extend) the effects of fat burning. Not to "thin your blood". There are 3 pages of abstracts on Medline about aspirin & ephedrine, with 20 articles per page. I've read all of them, and none of them mentions using aspirin to thin your blood or aspirin making ephedrine/caffeine more safe. None. Not one.
Aspirin is used in the ECA stack, as I said, to make it more thermogenic (as I said in my prior post) i.e. to exend it's effects. Here are several studies showing this to be the case. There are none on medline showing aspirin to make stimulants more safe. In fact, as you will see from the final study, aspirin actually makes caffeine MORE of a stimulant and contributes to hyperactivity experienced by it's use.
Int J Obes. 1991 May;15(5):359-66.
Aspirin potentiates the effect of ephedrine on the thermogenic response to a meal in obese but not lean women.
Horton TJ, Geissler CA.
Department of Food and Nutritional Sciences, King's College (KQC), Kensington, London, UK.
The effect of ephedrine (30 mg) and aspirin (300 mg) on the acute thermogenic response to a liquid meal (250 kcal) was investigated in lean and obese women (n = 10 each group). Resting metabolic rate (RMR) was measured prior to each of the following treatments: meal only (M), meal plus ephedrine (ME) or meal plus ephedrine and aspirin (MEA). Eight post-treatment measurements of metabolic rate were made over a total of 160 minutes. Rise in post-treatment metabolic rate was compared to the baseline RMR. Following the M treatment, the mean increase in metabolic rate was 0.17 +/- 0.01 and 0.13 +/- 0.02 kcal/min in the lean and obese groups respectively, with the corresponding rises being 0.21 +/- 0.02 and 0.19 +/- 0.02 kcal/min following the ME, and 0.23 +/- 0.03 and 0.23 +/- 0.01 kcal/min following the MEA. The increase in post-prandial thermogenesis with the ephedrine or ephedrine plus aspirin was significant in the obese group (P less than 0.03 and P less than 0.001 respectively) but not the lean. Furthermore, the post-treatment rise in metabolic rate, following the MEA treatment compared to the ME, was significantly greater for the obese group (P less than 0.05) but not the lean. It was concluded that aspirin potentiates the stimulatory effect of ephedrine on the thermogenic response to a meal in obese but not lean women.
Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1993 Feb;17 Suppl 1:S35-40.
Ephedrine, xanthines and prostaglandin-inhibitors: actions and interactions in the stimulation of thermogenesis.
Dulloo AG.
Department of Physiology, Centre Medical Universitaire, Geneva, Switzerland.
The pivotal role of the sympathoadrenal system in the defense of le milieu interieur has, in the last 15 years, been extended to include the fat stores-a notion that forms the basis of current strategies for thermogenic stimulation in obesity therapy. The search for effective and safe sympathetic stimulants has been directed at two main levels: (i) the development of novel beta-agonists selective for thermogenesis, and (ii) the evaluation of drugs already in clinical use for other purposes (e.g. ephedrine) which could conceivably increase the release of catecholamines to levels that enhance thermogenesis without significant cardiovascular effects. A re-direction of these strategies seem inevitable because at therapeutic doses, the thermogenic effects of these sympathomimetics seem to be considerably dampened by negative feedback mechanisms that operate both extracellularly (e.g. via adenosine & prostaglandins) as well as inside the cells (via cAMP phosphodiesterases). Such a contention is supported by studies both in man and in animals showing that methylxanthines and aspirin, drugs known to be capable of interfering with these modulators, potentiate the thermogenic effects of ephedrine. Future research aimed at clarifying the types and subtypes of these negative modulators of sympathomimetic-induced thermogenesis and their targeting by more selective antagonists would no doubt be pivotal in providing the safe drug combination with the necessary thermogenic properties to assist the management of obesity.
Am J Clin Nutr. 1987 Mar;45(3):564-9.
Aspirin as a promoter of ephedrine-induced thermogenesis: potential use in the treatment of obesity.
Dulloo AG, Miller DS.
Chronic administration of aspirin to obese mice had no effect on energy balance and body composition. In contrast, ephedrine increased energy expenditure by 9% and reduced body weight and body fat by 18% and 50%, respectively: obesity, however, was reduced but not reversed. In the presence of both ephedrine and aspirin, increase in energy expenditure found during treatment with ephedrine alone was doubled, and the obese group lost greater than 75% of body fat: obesity was reversed. These studies indicate that although aspirin administered alone has no influence on energy balance it can markedly potentiate thermogenic properties of ephedrine, effects which led to a normalization of body composition of the obese to that of the lean. Such ephedrine-aspirin mixtures, often found in over-the-counter preparations for asthma and bronchial disorders, could be put to new use as aids for treatment of human obesity.
J Pharm Pharmacol. 1979 Sep;31(9):611-4.
Aspirin-caffeine interaction in the rat
Collins C, Laird RI, Richards PT, Starmer GA, Weyrauch S.
Both aspirin at a high dose (400 mg kg-1) and caffeine (5 mg kg-1) induced hyperactivity in the DA rat, but lower doses of aspirin were without effect. Caffeine-induced hyperactivity was brief (2 h) but that due to aspirin was evident from 1--6 h after dosing. Co-administration of the two drugs caused long-lasting hyperactivity, even with doses of aspirin which had no stimulant effects themselves. Absorptive and metabolic effects did not appear to play a major role in the interaction. The most likely effect is that of salicylate on catecholamine utilization in the central nervous system, which is compounded in the presence of a phosphodiesterase inhibitor.
Associate Member
Very good stuff Hooker! Whats your medical background?
Are you green enough?
Nice.
Aspirin is included in the ECA stack to potentiate (extend) the effects of fat burning. Not to "thin your blood". There are 3 pages of abstracts on Medline about aspirin & ephedrine, with 20 articles per page. I've read all of them, and none of them mentions using aspirin to thin your blood or aspirin making ephedrine/caffeine more safe. None. Not one.
Aspirin is used in the ECA stack, as I said, to make it more thermogenic (as I said in my prior post) i.e. to exend it's effects. Here are several studies showing this to be the case. There are none on medline showing aspirin to make stimulants more safe. In fact, as you will see from the final study, aspirin actually makes caffeine MORE of a stimulant and contributes to hyperactivity experienced by it's use.
Int J Obes. 1991 May;15(5):359-66.
Aspirin potentiates the effect of ephedrine on the thermogenic response to a meal in obese but not lean women.
Horton TJ, Geissler CA.
Department of Food and Nutritional Sciences, King's College (KQC), Kensington, London, UK.
The effect of ephedrine (30 mg) and aspirin (300 mg) on the acute thermogenic response to a liquid meal (250 kcal) was investigated in lean and obese women (n = 10 each group). Resting metabolic rate (RMR) was measured prior to each of the following treatments: meal only (M), meal plus ephedrine (ME) or meal plus ephedrine and aspirin (MEA). Eight post-treatment measurements of metabolic rate were made over a total of 160 minutes. Rise in post-treatment metabolic rate was compared to the baseline RMR. Following the M treatment, the mean increase in metabolic rate was 0.17 +/- 0.01 and 0.13 +/- 0.02 kcal/min in the lean and obese groups respectively, with the corresponding rises being 0.21 +/- 0.02 and 0.19 +/- 0.02 kcal/min following the ME, and 0.23 +/- 0.03 and 0.23 +/- 0.01 kcal/min following the MEA. The increase in post-prandial thermogenesis with the ephedrine or ephedrine plus aspirin was significant in the obese group (P less than 0.03 and P less than 0.001 respectively) but not the lean. Furthermore, the post-treatment rise in metabolic rate, following the MEA treatment compared to the ME, was significantly greater for the obese group (P less than 0.05) but not the lean. It was concluded that aspirin potentiates the stimulatory effect of ephedrine on the thermogenic response to a meal in obese but not lean women.
Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1993 Feb;17 Suppl 1:S35-40.
Ephedrine, xanthines and prostaglandin-inhibitors: actions and interactions in the stimulation of thermogenesis.
Dulloo AG.
Department of Physiology, Centre Medical Universitaire, Geneva, Switzerland.
The pivotal role of the sympathoadrenal system in the defense of le milieu interieur has, in the last 15 years, been extended to include the fat stores-a notion that forms the basis of current strategies for thermogenic stimulation in obesity therapy. The search for effective and safe sympathetic stimulants has been directed at two main levels: (i) the development of novel beta-agonists selective for thermogenesis, and (ii) the evaluation of drugs already in clinical use for other purposes (e.g. ephedrine) which could conceivably increase the release of catecholamines to levels that enhance thermogenesis without significant cardiovascular effects. A re-direction of these strategies seem inevitable because at therapeutic doses, the thermogenic effects of these sympathomimetics seem to be considerably dampened by negative feedback mechanisms that operate both extracellularly (e.g. via adenosine & prostaglandins) as well as inside the cells (via cAMP phosphodiesterases). Such a contention is supported by studies both in man and in animals showing that methylxanthines and aspirin, drugs known to be capable of interfering with these modulators, potentiate the thermogenic effects of ephedrine. Future research aimed at clarifying the types and subtypes of these negative modulators of sympathomimetic-induced thermogenesis and their targeting by more selective antagonists would no doubt be pivotal in providing the safe drug combination with the necessary thermogenic properties to assist the management of obesity.
Am J Clin Nutr. 1987 Mar;45(3):564-9.
Aspirin as a promoter of ephedrine-induced thermogenesis: potential use in the treatment of obesity.
Dulloo AG, Miller DS.
Chronic administration of aspirin to obese mice had no effect on energy balance and body composition. In contrast, ephedrine increased energy expenditure by 9% and reduced body weight and body fat by 18% and 50%, respectively: obesity, however, was reduced but not reversed. In the presence of both ephedrine and aspirin, increase in energy expenditure found during treatment with ephedrine alone was doubled, and the obese group lost greater than 75% of body fat: obesity was reversed. These studies indicate that although aspirin administered alone has no influence on energy balance it can markedly potentiate thermogenic properties of ephedrine, effects which led to a normalization of body composition of the obese to that of the lean. Such ephedrine-aspirin mixtures, often found in over-the-counter preparations for asthma and bronchial disorders, could be put to new use as aids for treatment of human obesity.
J Pharm Pharmacol. 1979 Sep;31(9):611-4.
Aspirin-caffeine interaction in the rat
Collins C, Laird RI, Richards PT, Starmer GA, Weyrauch S.
Both aspirin at a high dose (400 mg kg-1) and caffeine (5 mg kg-1) induced hyperactivity in the DA rat, but lower doses of aspirin were without effect. Caffeine-induced hyperactivity was brief (2 h) but that due to aspirin was evident from 1--6 h after dosing. Co-administration of the two drugs caused long-lasting hyperactivity, even with doses of aspirin which had no stimulant effects themselves. Absorptive and metabolic effects did not appear to play a major role in the interaction. The most likely effect is that of salicylate on catecholamine utilization in the central nervous system, which is compounded in the presence of a phosphodiesterase inhibitor.[/QUOTE]
Writer
I got a C+ in Chemistry and a B- in Biology when I was in High School. Then in College I got a C+ in Biology.
Associate Member
So the learn it yourselfer? You talk like a physiologist
Writer
I have a degree in English, and a degree in Philosophy (with a concentration in Logic)... so my grammar is very precise as a result, I guess...So the learn it yourselfer? You talk like a physiologist
I'm just very interested in AAS and performance enhancement in general, so I do alot of reading in medical journals and stuff like that, and I try to be creative with how I apply the information I come across (example: Discovering the use of Benadryl to upgrade Beta receptors). I guess I also talk a bit too much like the journals that I read, as a result of reading so many articles...
Banned
wish my writting was good i just sound like a caveman when i try to write articles.
Senior Member
listen I am not going kill myself becuase you few guys think aspirin is only for thermogenesis. listen take ephedra without aspirin but please don't include yourself in number of people died from ephedra statistics. I would never take ephedra without asiprin because I like my heart and frankly I want to live longer!
Senior Member
listen I am not going kill myself becuase you few guys think aspirin is only for thermogenesis. listen take ephedra without aspirin but please don't include yourself in number of people died from ephedra statistics. I would never take ephedra without asiprin becuase I like my heart and frankly I want to live longer!
Senior Member
"In addition, people susceptible to stroke should exercise great caution regarding the herb ephedra. Ephedra contains ephedrine, a drug that raises blood pressure and stimulates the heart, and has caused heart attacks and strokes.30–33 Certain preparations of ephedra may present an additional risk beyond ephedrine’s effects on the circulatory system: direct toxicity to nerves"
Strokes occur when part of the brain suddenly loses its blood supply and dies. The underlying cause is generally atherosclerosis, a condition in which the walls of blood vessels become thickened and irregular. As atherosclerosis progresses, blood flow through important arteries becomes restricted to a much smaller passage than nature designed. This narrow passage can then suddenly become blocked, often by a blood clot.
Conventional treatment for a stroke has several phases, but the most important is prevention. Stopping smoking, losing weight, reducing cholesterol levels, and controlling blood pressure fight atherosclerosis and thereby reduce the risk of stroke. Also, physicians may recommend use of “blood thinning” drugs such as aspirin to prevent the blood clots that so frequently are the final step to a stroke. Furthermore, if there is evidence that the main blood vessels leading to the brain are seriously narrowed, surgery or angioplasty may be considered to widen those vessels.
http://community.healthgate.com/GetC...ndition/stroke, Copyright © 2004 HealthGate Data Corp. All rights reserved.
just make sense to take aspirin with ephedra doesn't it? 1 plus the other good thermogenisis and good for you to prevent strokes which should be our number one concern rather then thermogenisis but that is just me!
Senior Member
greenmashine can you put two and two together? ephedra increases blood pressure and aspirin helps with blood thinning. therefore what do you think the answer is?
Its like you telling me that 1 plus 1 is equel to four? yes if u add 2 it might be four (hence thermogenisis) but adding aspirin is like the answer which is 2.
sorry I am trying here!
Last edited by 2timer; 10-30-2004 at 03:28 PM.
Junior Member
wow, thanks alot hooker, apreciate it!
Junior Member
Question for hooker:
So lets say after my two weeks is up im at 120 mcg of clen a day, when i start taking the benedryl should i keep the clen dosage the same throughout the third week? IF the receptors are being "recharged" will i have to take as much clen to get the same effect? Will i see more sides as the third "benedryl" week progresses even if my dose is consistant? I guess ill find out soon enough.
I just took my first 20mcgs of clen today
Writer
Yeah...clen dose remains constant. Only take the Benadryl every 3rd week...you'll feel the clen a little more, but not much...just noticable.
New Member
im on ephedra im on my 6th week straight should i take some Benadryl..what is? is it a ABS...or over the counter
Writer
Yes. Take Benadryl. Its OTC.
Ron Paul Nuthugger
Source for caffeine pills?
It took me forever to find ephedrine today at a gas station, i went to 3-4 before finding one that sold it. I do not know where to get caffeine pills at this time, i will down a cup of coffee in the morning before cardio and see what that is like?
Anyone ever just drink coffee as their caffeine source?
This is what it boils down to until i find some caffeine pills:
Epedrine 25mg, Cup of coffee, 325mg Aspirin (might cut this bad boy in half)
New Member
Hey guys
Another question for ya. In a earlier post a dosage of 20 mgs of ephedrine and 200 mgs of caffeine was recomended, though this was directed to a female member would the dosage be the same for a male???
Writer
Yes.
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