Anthony Roberts New Article on Esters...

[BG]

This article does make sense and for you who say we know this already why are guys still running around saying test is test? This will also help the guys that have estrogen problems maybe decide on a shorter ester with more injects rather then take a toxic/gain hindering AI. Like Merc said, Im very interested in blends now, were on the hunt to create as much synergy between compounds, this could be just that little bit more to put you over the edge.
Now as far as Doctor This says that, Anthony has proven to be legitimatly dedicated to AS research time and time again., references always given. Are you taking T-4 with your GH now and not T-3.......because Anthony took the time to research and write it up for all of us to read you probably are. Yes he gets paid, but he not like the others trying to pull you to their site, his info is copied on 90% of the sites not just one.
Good read Anthony, food for thought, something new to think about when trying to squeeze out a little more gains out of a cycle.

[thunderin]

[quote=Merc.] In 1954, a researcher named Reifstein and his colleagues compared an injection of Testosterone Propionate with Testosterone Enanthate, and they found that the injection of testosterone propionate resulted in nitrogen retention of 1.02g/day with a total measurable anabolic activity of 12 days, while the Enanthate version resulted in nitrogen retention of 1.76g/day and had a total measurable anabolic activity of 33 days. (1). Therefore, a 200mg shot of Testosterone (long ester) is going to have a greater overall anabolic effect than a 200mg shot of a short ester. That’s actually kind of common sense, isn’t it? No, how can you compare a single injection of test prop which has a half life of 2 days with a single injection of test enan with a half life of more than 7 days?

So does that mean that the ester effects the anabolic ability of the actual steroid. Well, yes, that would seem to be the case. If a steroid hangs out in your body for a longer amount of time, and helps you retain more nitrogen, then its overall anabolic effect would be greater. Granted, they’re studying a single injection- but with a typical injection schedule of testosterone propionate, as compared to testosterone enanthate, most people gain more weight from the enanthate version. Think about it; experience tells us that with an every other day injection schedule of 100mgs of testosterone propionate versus 400mgs/week of testosterone enanthate, most people gain more weight from the enanthate. Yet, the actual amount of injected (pure) testosterone is virtually the same, even when you subtract the weight of the ester. Test prop is an every day injection, if you inject eod you cannot maintain stable levels in your body as you reach the half life by day 2. Test prop injected ed will give you the very same results as the longer estered version. Eod injection of test prop would be a real roller coaster going up and down. If you don't believe me try it.

Here’s my position, S-P-E-L-L-E-D out for you:


Testosterone, depending on the ester, will give you different effects in a variety of areas.

Yeah, I’m saying the ester will have it’s own effect on how the testosterone is metabolized and used by your body. And that will give you different effects, depending on the ester you choose.

Your conclusion is based on biased data that is over 50 years old. Try that same experiment again with a dosing regimen of test prop ed and you will see the fact that testosterone is testosterone if stable levels are maintained in the body.

Again, if you do not believe it try it. You will get just as many sides from taking 200mg of test prop ed as you would from taking 1,400mg of test enan or cyp ew.

If I get banned for posting this then so be it.

[finny]

Now, that makes sense - great points Thunderin.

How about guys with first hand experience. Thunderin is one of them - he has ran it both ways and still maintains that test is test and you get similar sides, no matter what ester.

I mean Anthony's ideas were interesting. Some of it was new, some not and rather obvious.

[BG]

[QUOTE=thunderin]

In 1954, a researcher named Reifstein and his colleagues compared an injection of Testosterone Propionate with Testosterone Enanthate, and they found that the injection of testosterone propionate resulted in nitrogen retention of 1.02g/day with a total measurable anabolic activity of 12 days, while the Enanthate version resulted in nitrogen retention of 1.76g/day and had a total measurable anabolic activity of 33 days. (1). Therefore, a 200mg shot of Testosterone (long ester) is going to have a greater overall anabolic effect than a 200mg shot of a short ester. That’s actually kind of common sense, isn’t it? No, how can you compare a single injection of test prop which has a half life of 2 days with a single injection of test enan with a half life of more than 7 days?

So does that mean that the ester effects the anabolic ability of the actual steroid. Well, yes, that would seem to be the case. If a steroid hangs out in your body for a longer amount of time, and helps you retain more nitrogen, then its overall anabolic effect would be greater. Granted, they’re studying a single injection- but with a typical injection schedule of testosterone propionate, as compared to testosterone enanthate, most people gain more weight from the enanthate version. Think about it; experience tells us that with an every other day injection schedule of 100mgs of testosterone propionate versus 400mgs/week of testosterone enanthate, most people gain more weight from the enanthate. Yet, the actual amount of injected (pure) testosterone is virtually the same, even when you subtract the weight of the ester. Test prop is an every day injection, if you inject eod you cannot maintain stable levels in your body as you reach the half life by day 2. Test prop injected ed will give you the very same results as the longer estered version. Eod injection of test prop would be a real roller coaster going up and down. If you don't believe me try it.

Here’s my position, S-P-E-L-L-E-D out for you:


Testosterone, depending on the ester, will give you different effects in a variety of areas.

Yeah, I’m saying the ester will have it’s own effect on how the testosterone is metabolized and used by your body. And that will give you different effects, depending on the ester you choose.

Your conclusion is based on biased data that is over 50 years old. Try that same experiment again with a dosing regimen of test prop ed and you will see the fact that testosterone is testosterone if stable levels are maintained in the body.

Again, if you do not believe it try it. You will get just as many sides from taking 200mg of test prop ed as you would from taking 1,400mg of test enan or cyp ew.
If I get banned for posting this then so be it.

^^^Why have you done it? I say your wrong. Ive used prop with very minimal sides and every time I use test-e I get horrible gyno at the same dosage. Anthony isnt saying he discovered this, hes saying so many people run around saying the ester has no effect on gains and sides and it does, he's giving you the information. Stop being an idiot, if I get banned I dont care...retard this is a discussion board, your slander someone or flame and you will. Lets here about your sides when you ran 1400mgs of prop and when you ran 1400mgs of test-e.

[Merc..]

[QUOTE=thunderin]

In 1954, a researcher named Reifstein and his colleagues compared an injection of Testosterone Propionate with Testosterone Enanthate, and they found that the injection of testosterone propionate resulted in nitrogen retention of 1.02g/day with a total measurable anabolic activity of 12 days, while the Enanthate version resulted in nitrogen retention of 1.76g/day and had a total measurable anabolic activity of 33 days. (1). Therefore, a 200mg shot of Testosterone (long ester) is going to have a greater overall anabolic effect than a 200mg shot of a short ester. That’s actually kind of common sense, isn’t it? No, how can you compare a single injection of test prop which has a half life of 2 days with a single injection of test enan with a half life of more than 7 days?

So does that mean that the ester effects the anabolic ability of the actual steroid. Well, yes, that would seem to be the case. If a steroid hangs out in your body for a longer amount of time, and helps you retain more nitrogen, then its overall anabolic effect would be greater. Granted, they’re studying a single injection- but with a typical injection schedule of testosterone propionate, as compared to testosterone enanthate, most people gain more weight from the enanthate version. Think about it; experience tells us that with an every other day injection schedule of 100mgs of testosterone propionate versus 400mgs/week of testosterone enanthate, most people gain more weight from the enanthate. Yet, the actual amount of injected (pure) testosterone is virtually the same, even when you subtract the weight of the ester. Test prop is an every day injection, if you inject eod you cannot maintain stable levels in your body as you reach the half life by day 2. Test prop injected ed will give you the very same results as the longer estered version. Eod injection of test prop would be a real roller coaster going up and down. If you don't believe me try it.

Here’s my position, S-P-E-L-L-E-D out for you:


Testosterone, depending on the ester, will give you different effects in a variety of areas.

Yeah, I’m saying the ester will have it’s own effect on how the testosterone is metabolized and used by your body. And that will give you different effects, depending on the ester you choose.

Your conclusion is based on biased data that is over 50 years old. Try that same experiment again with a dosing regimen of test prop ed and you will see the fact that testosterone is testosterone if stable levels are maintained in the body.

Again, if you do not believe it try it. You will get just as many sides from taking 200mg of test prop ed as you would from taking 1,400mg of test enan or cyp ew.

If I get banned for posting this then so be it.

So your saying you cant maintain stable levels of prop unless you inject ED ? If this is the case how come so many people here have tried prop ED and EOD with zero diffrence in side effects or gains .


Alot of people are not reporting back that using prop EOD is putting them on a emotional roller coaster. I mean yes highly androgenic AS like tren have a effect on serotonergic amines and decrease serotonin thus possibly putting you on a emotional roller coaster ( some people even shoot tren ace EOD and dont get horrible emotional sides)

Mg to Mg I experience less bloat and sides when using prop. Anthony is really on to something with aromatization and 5a reduction effecting the compound.


This is the" FIRST" article that's even addresses this . Most felt that the ester really only effects half life .


Anthony's article shows it has much more to do with it than just half life ...

Besides that most do bloat less on prop than test E or cyp .

A decade of steroid post on the web shows that most people get divergant effects from different esters..

Look at a cutting cycle for a example , its almost always prop . Bulkers are most always test e or cyp. This comes from experience not just randomness.

Take a look at the last 100 cutting cycles on here . You will see that about 90% used short esters for cutting and long esters for bulkers..

Anyways like I said the article addresses things that have never really been discussed anywhere (mostly how an ester has a direct effect on aromatization and 5a reduction) , and obviously sheds a new look into how the ester plays a greater role than most thought ..

Merc.

[Big]

If I get banned for posting this then so be it.
why would you think you might get banned for your opinion? this is your opinion and you delivered it without flaming anyone, that just makes for a good discussion. I hope anyone else who is reading this thread isn't holding back for fear of repercussion, regardless of whether you agree or not this is a place to state all sides and opinions on an issue like this so we may all learn from it. Just my 2 cents.

[finny]

Obviously I don't have much experience here, just trying to use common sense.

But couldn't one of the reasons for using prop while dieting be that one uses tren or winny that they inject ed or eod then why not combine them all into one combo - you're doing frequent injects anyway?

I would think that another reason might be that prop clears the system fast - it doesn't linger around like enan and this would be desirable when getting ready for competition and the like.

I'll shut up now and listen to more experienced people...

[taiboxa]

test IS test... you are still only changing the rate of degredation big whoop.

[BG]

test IS test... you are still only changing the rate of degredation big whoop.

[taiboxa]

look the only thing that is changed is the function group i.e. the ester.. the hormone is still the exact same as before. its just cleaved at a different rate and released in a different manner but your body still treats test.. as .. test.
why do u think people get puffy and gyno from suspension more so than others w/ an ester.. because its an immediate release of test and aromatizationof estrogen so its a LARGE onset.

[BG]

But from idividual to individual you can reduce sides and create more synergy in a cycle by using (or combining) different esters.

[BG]

look the only thing that is changed is the function group i.e. the ester.. the hormone is still the exact same as before. its just cleaved at a different rate and released in a different manner but your body still treats test.. as .. test.
why do u think people get puffy and gyno from suspension more so than others w/ an ester.. because its an immediate release of test and aromatizationof estrogen so its a LARGE onset.

Thats like looking at the subject with horse blinders on. The facts were given in his article and they cant be argued with, if you want to look at them blindly so be it, but if other people are looking to perfect their cycles then let them. Is this because of your dislike of test, dislike of Anthony or both? Because its seems to me your just disagreeing to disagree, even when the article makes perfect sense. I thought you liked Anthony.....why would you have sent him that email about growing up a fat kid??

[Merc..]

look the only thing that is changed is the function group i.e. the ester.. the hormone is still the exact same as before. its just cleaved at a different rate and released in a different manner but your body still treats test.. as .. test.
why do u think people get puffy and gyno from suspension more so than others w/ an ester.. because its an immediate release of test and aromatizationof estrogen so its a LARGE onset.

One of the main things the article is showing is how different esters have different effects on aromatization and 5a reduction..

Thus making the action of the parent Steroid ( test) have different actions due to which ester it is attached to.... In that aspects test is not test

Merc.

[taiboxa]

One of the main things the article is showing is how different esters have different effects on aromatization and 5a reduction..

Thus making the action of the parent Steroid ( test) have different actions due to which ester it is attached to.... In that aspects test is not test

Merc.

and you can find peer review articles and case studies supporting the kraziest shit immaginable.. imo.. its allll the same.

[taiboxa]

One of the main things the article is showing is how different esters have different effects on aromatization and 5a reduction..

Thus making the action of the parent Steroid ( test) have different actions due to which ester it is attached to.... In that aspects test is not test

Merc.

and its still speculation...
as he himself states he "SUSPECTS".

[Merc..]

and you can find peer review articles and case studies supporting the kraziest shit immaginable.. imo.. its allll the same.

Everyone has the right to thier own opinion ...

Thanks for chiming in with yours Tia....


See fellas you wont get banned for posting your opinions .. Just please no flaming and lets keep it on topic of the article not its writer..


Merc.

[taiboxa]

Everyone has the right to thier own opinion ...

Thanks for chiming in with yours Tia....


See fellas you wont get banned for posting your opinions .. Just please no flaming and lets keep it on topic of the article not its writer..


Merc.

no flaming here at all, im just saying that the majority of testings/case studies/peer reviews are always biast in some way.. secondly the majority of statements in this genre we call our LIFESTYLE are based on speculation and very lil is actually for certain.
but if you break it down to a chemistry point of view its still just a simple functional group that is cleaved periodically controlling the release of hormone thus determining the blood plasma levels.

[thunderin]

[quote=BigGuns101]

^^^Why have you done it? Yes, I have. I have been using AAS on and off for the past 27 years.

Stop being an idiot, if I get banned I dont care...retard this is a discussion board, your slander someone or flame and you will. Who are you to call others an idiot and a retard on this discussion board? That clearly is a flame.

Lets here about your sides when you ran 1400mgs of prop and when you ran 1400mgs of test-e.

You can check my log on the GH forum. I am currently running 300mg of test prop ed and my sides are the same.http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=290044

Furthermore, you can read read the compilation of material I posted under educational threads to help you understand better about what an ester is and how it works. http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=309685

Almost 3 decades of experience cycling AAS means a lot more to me than the suppositions/not true-life experience of someone who was not even born when I first injected my glute.

I don't make a penny from the sports industry, and I don't need to. I am simply sharing my life experience. Anthony is not.

Testosterone is testosterone.

[taiboxa]

Thats like looking at the subject with horse blinders on. The facts were given in his article and they cant be argued with, if you want to look at them blindly so be it, but if other people are looking to perfect their cycles then let them. Is this because of your dislike of test, dislike of Anthony or both? Because its seems to me your just disagreeing to disagree, even when the article makes perfect sense. I thought you liked Anthony.....why would you have sent him that email about growing up a fat kid??

the email was sent to inform him of the bloodwork and over exageration of sides and how i ascertain my results from my doctor.
no i have always stated that the ester is just that.. an ester.. sure u change shit around on a molecule and u can create a different compound all together. buttt.. the FUNCTION of the ester is a group attached TO the hormone molecule.. and its primary role is to regulate how fast the hormone is utilized.

im not arguing to argue. im just saying that i have ran test.. long/short/blends/unestered.. the only thing different.. was the protocol of administration.. did i see different sides ... no.. but i do feel better w/ long esters when it comes to tren.. why do u ask well its because the hormone is released at a slower rate, there is not high spike in plasma levels and this seems to make things easier on me.. but BIG KIG and i had this discussion before.
and i will try to make this as EASY read as possible...

lets say your taking 100mg prop ED and 100mg Enanthate ED
if you look at charts.. by the end of the weak... which hormone will have higher peak plasma levels? why? well lets see the enanthate ester would continue to stack on its self for a MUCH GREATER PERIOD OF TIME.

so how come you dont have MASSIVE GAINS COMPARED to Prop ester?
i mean.. you would have almost 3 times as much in your system w/ the long ester than you would w/ the prop by the end of the weak since by day 3 of the prop ester the initial administration is 0... but by Day 3 of the enanate ester the initial administration is just peaking..

if you can answer that question then your onto something

[perfectbeast2001]

I am not really one for in depth science but i can certainly state my point based on personal experience. When i change ester half way through a cycle (i.e i have run test E for 8 weeks then i change to Test C) I have noticed that soon after changing i get renewed gains and a noticable increse in libido and agression levels during training. This would seem to support Anthonys theory that there are more to esters than simply dictating half life.

[Merc..]

This is to document the results from Chinese generic blue cap HGH over the course of a year.

Stats:

Ht: 175cm (5'9")
Wt: 92kg (202lbs)
Age: 40
Bodybuilding for 26 years
AAS Cycles: too many and too many years to remember

Goal

^^^^^^^

Your 40 years old and have been using steroids for 27 years ??

You started using steroids when you where 13 ???


Merc.

[taiboxa]

i started when i was 14.. i think thats where my boobs came from.

[perfectbeast2001]

cmon guys lets stick to the subject at hand. It is interesting and this thread dose not need to be closed due to squabbling.

[Merc..]

the email was sent to inform him of the bloodwork and over exageration of sides and how i ascertain my results from my doctor.
no i have always stated that the ester is just that.. an ester.. sure u change shit around on a molecule and u can create a different compound all together. buttt.. the FUNCTION of the ester is a group attached TO the hormone molecule.. and its primary role is to regulate how fast the hormone is utilized.

im not arguing to argue. im just saying that i have ran test.. long/short/blends/unestered.. the only thing different.. was the protocol of administration.. did i see different sides ... no.. but i do feel better w/ long esters when it comes to tren.. why do u ask well its because the hormone is released at a slower rate, there is not high spike in plasma levels and this seems to make things easier on me.. but BIG KIG and i had this discussion before.
and i will try to make this as EASY read as possible...

lets say your taking 100mg prop ED and 100mg Enanthate ED
if you look at charts.. by the end of the weak... which hormone will have higher peak plasma levels? why? well lets see the enanthate ester would continue to stack on its self for a MUCH GREATER PERIOD OF TIME.

so how come you dont have MASSIVE GAINS COMPARED to Prop ester?
i mean.. you would have almost 3 times as much in your system w/ the long ester than you would w/ the prop by the end of the weak since by day 3 of the prop ester the initial administration is 0... but by Day 3 of the enanate ester the initial administration is just peaking..

if you can answer that question then your onto something

Did you read the entire article Tia??

Merc.

[taiboxa]

Did you read the entire article Tia??

Merc.

twice.

[Merc..]

cmon guys lets stick to the subject at hand. It is interesting and this thread dose not need to be closed due to squabbling.

Perfect Beast,

I am not squabbling.(maybe you have not read my post in this thread . every post I have posted here is pertaining to it). I even asked if we can stay on topic here.

I just was like wow when I looked at the link he posted and it said he was 40.

When he said he was using AAS for 27 years I thought he was going to be much older.. Nothing more nothing less..

Merc.

[taiboxa]

my lil spill didnt pertain to the article, i just thoght it was an interesting ordeal that big KIG discussed.

[thunderin]

Yes, I got my first bottle of dbol and amps of test cyp and deca from a friend who's father was a doctor at a age when I shouldn't have been able to get them. Stunted my gowth a bit too...my sister is as tall as I am. Gyno came a year later. It was kind of nice being the only one who could bench 315 as a freshman.


Who needs to be 5'11"?

[Merc..]

Yes, I got my first bottle of dbol and amps of test cyp and deca from a friend who's father was a doctor at a age when I shouldn't have been able to get them. Stunted my gowth a bit too...my sister is as tall as I am. Gyno came a year later. It was kind of nice being the only one who could bench 315 as a freshman.


Who needs to be 5'11"?

Dam a DR gave you dbol and test at 13 years old.



Thats crazy..


Merc.

[taiboxa]

Dam a DR gave you dbol and test at 13 years old.



Thats crazy..


Merc.

yeah wats worse is my friend at 14 got dbol and nolvadex from our coach...

[BG]

Almost 3 decades of experience cycling AAS means a lot more to me than the suppositions/not true-life experience of someone who was not even born when I first injected my glute.

Well if those are your stats, 5'9" 202 you have no idea what the fuc your doing. Im 5'7" 212 old timer, if you want pm me Ill give you some diet and training tips.

[thunderin]

Dam a DR gave you dbol and test at 13 years old.

Thats crazy..

Merc.

from the Dr.'s son who obviously didn't have permission. We were young and stupid

[thunderin]

Almost 3 decades of experience cycling AAS means a lot more to me than the suppositions/not true-life experience of someone who was not even born when I first injected my glute.

Well if those are your stats, 5'9" 202 you have no idea what the fuc your doing. Im 5'7" 212 old timer, if you want pm me Ill give you some diet and training tips.

That was after dieting down. Please read 'til the last page of the journal. As of this morning, I am 103kg (almost 227lbs).

Somethings change ....some dont I see.

I give up bro. Blindly follow Anthony and he will lead you to great heights.

Got to run, time for more humalog and food.

[Merc..]

[QUOTE=Merc.]

So your saying you cant maintain stable levels of prop unless you inject ED ? If this is the case how come so many people here have tried prop ED and EOD with zero diffrence in side effects or gains .


Alot of people are not reporting back that using prop EOD is putting them on a emotional roller coaster. I mean yes highly androgenic AS like tren have a effect on serotonergic amines and decrease serotonin thus possibly putting you on a emotional roller coaster ( some people even shoot tren ace EOD and dont get horrible emotional sides)

Mg to Mg I experience less bloat and sides when using prop. Anthony is really on to something with aromatization and 5a reduction effecting the compound.


This is the" FIRST" article that's even addresses this . Most felt that the ester really only effects half life .


Anthony's article shows it has much more to do with it than just half life ...

Besides that most do bloat less on prop than test E or cyp .

A decade of steroid post on the web shows that most people get divergant effects from different esters..

Look at a cutting cycle for a example , its almost always prop . Bulkers are most always test e or cyp. This comes from experience not just randomness.

Take a look at the last 100 cutting cycles on here . You will see that about 90% used short esters for cutting and long esters for bulkers..

Anyways like I said the article addresses things that have never really been discussed anywhere (mostly how an ester has a direct effect on aromatization and 5a reduction) , and obviously sheds a new look into how the ester plays a greater role than most thought ..

Merc.

^^^^

Thoughts Thunderin ????


Merc.

[taiboxa]

Tai, you got all this knowledge, and your ways are supposevly the best and work the best.....post a fuc'n picture of yourself and show me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Or all your ideas speculation and you really dont use or put them to true life use?

G' such hasty and energized skeptism at its finest... are they the best for everyone.. of course not.. do i know my body? yes i do.

When have i ever claimed that my way is THE BEST? never.. but i do QUESTION others motives/methods/reasonings why? simple.. curiosity. do i suggest what works for me for others to try? YES otherwise my existance here would be absolutly pointless outside the lounge.

Firstly do not assosciate my skepticism as a means of defacing any work anthony roberts has composed.. im in aggreement with the fact he is a dilligent researcher, a very read man and never leaves any stones unturned (stones that are currently present anyways who knows what will turn up in 3months) but there are just so many unknowns, variables and flat out MYSTERIES in this lifestyle of aas usage.

Secondly if your going to use best twice in once sentence (especially with that many exclamation points ) i would hope you would have done some premeditated digging of my posts to relinquish any doubt that i am as arrogant as you make me out to be.

anyways everything i "PREACH/PARROT" i do put to "true-life" use as for a picture... those will never be posted online.. and yes i love the redundency that is brought about by this simple act of "NOT POSTING A PIC" but i wouldnt want goose to know he is dating an indian.

[thunderin]

The only way this can be properly settled is to have a double-blind controlled study with 4 or more test subjects.

Other than that, let your body be the judge.

Too many people on too many boards have turned against Anthony for me to believe everything he posts now without questioning it.

[taiboxa]

The only way this can be properly settled is to have a double-blind controlled study with 4 or more test subjects.

Other than that, let your body be the judge.

Too many people on too many boards have turned against Anthony for me to believe everything he posts now without questioning it.

i was expecting a FIGHT TO THE DEATH..
but i suppose a DBPS would be ideal too..

[Merc..]

Acronym Definition
DBPS Defensive Battle Planning System
DBPS Distance-Based Priority Scheduling

Merc. LOL hahahahaha

[Merc..]

Or

Double blind placebo studies hahahahah lol

Merc.

[taiboxa]

i said fight to the death.. but the music never qued
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu2oIvdLSOE