HTPA Shutdown....

[Giants11]

Dude....that study says that ATD is preventing androgens from binding to the androgen receptor and that it has estrogen like action.

I believe it states that it blocks the AR in the Brain, no?

And it clearly states that ATD is a aromatse inhibitor.

"in support of this hypothesis, the aromatization inhibitor, ATD..."

"In all four brain areas binding of T to androgen receptors was significantly decreased in the presence of ATD, suggesting that ATD may act both as an androgen receptor blocker and as an aromatization inhibitor."

[vitor]

I believe it states that it blocks the AR in the Brain, no?

Yes, but it didnt state clearly if the AR in the muscle would be blocked aswell which would make AAS uselesss basically?

[Giants11]

Yes, but it didnt state clearly if the AR in the muscle would be blocked aswell which would make AAS uselesss basically?

Absolutely, i just figured I'd throw those out there. Considering its the only thing I've seen thus far that "could" have the ability to block the AR in the Hypothalamus.

[Swifto]

Just had a thought...

Prolactin is also very inhibitory to ones HPTA. So would the use Cabergoline be crucial when cycling 19-Nors, or be a must when conducting a PCT protocol when one's used 19-Nor's previously?

[vitor]

Just had a thought...

Prolactin is also very inhibitory to ones HPTA. So would the use Cabergoline be crucial when cycling 19-Nors, or be a must when conducting a PCT protocol when one's used 19-Nor's previously?

I find all AAS raises prolactin (from pre cycle BW), but tren and deca even more so.

User Caber when cycling would always be a good thing imo. High prolactin levels will drive libido in the ground too.

[Giants11]

I find all AAS raises prolactin (from pre cycle BW), but tren and deca even more so.

User Caber when cycling would always be a good thing imo. High prolactin levels will drive libido in the ground too.

Cabergoline has been linked to hear valve issue, so tread lightly there. Perhaps B-6 in this case:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Parkinson’s drugs may be riskier than thought
Heart valve problems linked to two medications, studies find
Parkinson's drugs riskier than thought - More Health News - MSNBC.com

Jan 3, 2007

The risk of heart valve damage with two drugs for Parkinson’s disease may be far greater than was known, new research suggests.

The drugs are not the main treatment for Parkinson’s, but one is also sometimes used to treat restless legs syndrome.

A study by Italian researchers found that roughly one-fourth of Parkinson’s patients taking pergolide or cabergoline, sold as Permax, Dostinex and other brands, had moderate to severe heart valve problems. Another study, by German doctors, found that users of either drug were five to seven times more likely to have leaky heart valves than those on other types of Parkinson’s medications. Both studies were reported in Thursday’s New England Journal of Medicine.

“This is an extraordinarily high risk,” said Dr. Bryan Roth, a pharmacology professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

“It’s a bad side effect. As far as I know, there are no medications that can reverse it,” and valve replacement surgery is the only solution, he said.

Roth had no role in the studies but directs a drug screening program for the National Institute of Mental Health. He also published a paper several years ago warning that these drugs appeared to trigger the same heart-related mechanism that the fen-phen diet combination did. The diet pills, sold as Pondimin and Redux, were pulled from the market in 1997 after they were linked to valve problems.

One of the Parkinson’s drugs — pergolide, sold as Permax and other brands — also is used to treat restless legs syndrome. Cabergoline, sold as Dostinex, Cabaser and other names, is mostly used in Europe.

About half a million people had taken Permax during its first 14 years on the market when its developer, Eli Lilly and Co., added valve damage to the potential side effects listed on the package insert in 2003. But the company said the risk was extremely low — five in 100,000 users.

Roth believed there were more cases, a theory he said the new studies confirmed.

“This is an example of, if you don’t look for it, you don’t see it,” said Dr. C. Warren Olanow, chairman of neurology at Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York, who had no role in the work. The findings will lead more doctors to prescribe other Parkinson’s treatments, he said.

About 1.5 million Americans and 6 million people worldwide have Parkinson’s disease, which results in tremors, loss of muscle control and sometimes death.

It’s caused by a lack of the brain chemical, dopamine. The main treatment is levodopa, which spurs the body to make more dopamine. Pergolide and cabergoline often are given in addition to that drug or in place of it, especially if symptoms worsen over time.

In one study, Dr. Renzo Zanettini and others at the Instituti Clinici di Perfezionamento in Milan obtained echocardiogram images of the hearts of 155 patients taking various Parkinson’s medications and a comparison group of 90 healthy people.

Moderate to severe valve problems were seen in 23 percent of those on pergolide and nearly 29 percent of those on cabergoline but none of those on other Parkinson’s drugs and less than 6 percent of the comparison group. The study was paid for by the Milan clinic and two Parkinson’s foundations.

In the other study, Dr. Rene Schade and colleagues in Berlin and in Montreal used records from more than 11,400 Parkinson’s patients in the United Kingdom. The rate of newly diagnosed leaky valves was increased among pergolide and cabergoline users but not the others, they found. The Canadian government and a drug company provided partial support for the study. Many researchers in both studies have consulted for Parkinson drug makers.

Pergolide sales have dropped in recent years but still amounted to more than $10 million last year in the United States, according to IMS Health, a health care information firm.

The rights to Permax in the U.S. now belong to Valeant Pharmaceuticals of Aliso Viejo, Calif. A company statement said Permax is safe and effective, but Valeant is no longer promoting the product. All such drugs should be used “with caution,” the statement says.

Cabergoline is approved in the U.S. for treating a hormone problem, excessive prolactin in the blood, but not Parkinson’s.

Roth has been urging companies developing new drugs to test for the mechanism involved in the Parkinson and fen-phen pills, saying those that that have it shouldn’t be sold.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Cabergoline has been linked to hear valve issue, so tread lightly there. Perhaps B-6 in this case:

But B6 will lower androgen gene transcription...

[Giants11]

But B6 will lower androgen gene transcription...

Then it's got to be Bromo, if Prolactin is an issue. And I guess you just gotta suck up the sides.

Back to the original question of the quote. Is there any evidence that supports staying on a cycle for prolonged periods of time, will eventually make it impossible to recover?

[Property of Steroid.com]

Just had a thought...

Prolactin is also very inhibitory to ones HPTA. So would the use Cabergoline be crucial when cycling 19-Nors, or be a must when conducting a PCT protocol when one's used 19-Nor's previously?

I think adding another drug isn't a great idea. You can block conversion to DHT, lower prolactin, lower progesterone, eliminate the rise in estrogen, etc, etc...

But all of those things have sides themselves. Lowering DHT can cause gyno...lowering estrogen will mess up lipids, anabolism, etc...lowering progesterone can **** your joints up, lowering prolactin can mess with your immune function...

I think it's probably not going to be the magic bullet we all think it is to stop all of these hormonal cascades. Androgens are suppressive in and of themselves, no conversion to anyting required....

So even if we did everything under the sun to lower suppression, it would likely only be marginally effective in the long run.

[Swifto]

VERY interesting qoute from Swale (Qualified Endo):

HCG induces the Leydig cells to produce testosterone, whether on cycle or not. I should expect a given dose of HCG would produce more T in the fully suppressed state (i.e.e AAS cycle) than would be the case in the eugonadal male.

The suppression is surely produced by the induced T. I am not aware that LH directly suppresses at the hypothalamus or pituitary. However, we are finding more and more sites where LH is bioactive, and this is also a good reason to use HCG throughout the steroid cycle in cases where LH production is reduced.

HCG is "to suppressive' only when itr is being administered while we are trying to recover the HPTA. Then it is, just as Androgel or 100mg pf test cyp per week would be. IOW, you cannot "hide" androgens from the HP.

Subjective proof is provided by all the AAS athletes out there who have used my HCG protocol, and report how much better they feel during their steroid cycles. They claim to avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling that often accompanies the cycle by about the 5th or 6th week. They also say they recover more quickly, as testicular repsonse to rapidly returning LH production is the rate-limiting step in HPTA recovery.

Edit:

Total T is HUGE for AAS users. Far beyond what can be gobbled up by SHBG, so free and Bio T are as well. That is why I always tell them that their SHBG levels are of virtually no consequence until they go off cycle.

The endogenous production from HCG use during cycle is small by comparison to the AAS, too. However, those who use HCG during their cycles per my protocol report to me they just feel better along the way, so SOMETHING else is happening. And of course recovery is speeded up at the end, too, because the testes are ready, willing and able to do their thing.

If this is the case a low dose of HCG throughout your cycle will really help in PCT. You wont be starting from scratch. Your bodies already producing some natural T.

Thats just changed the way I cycle. HCG, low dose throughout for me now.

[Serotonin]

Just to further elaborate on the wonders of HCG... check this journal article out.

Dev Kumar1

1. ***artment of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University Malaya Medical Centre, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

Objective

To document for the first time the successful treatment using human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and human menopausal gonadotropins (hMG) of anabolic steroid–induced azoospermia that was persistent despite 1 year of cessation from steroid use.
Design

Clinical case report.
Setting

Tertiary referral center for infertility.
Patient(s)

A married couple with primary subfertility secondary to azoospermia and male hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. The husband was a bodybuilder who admitted to have used the anabolic steroids testosterone cypionate, methandrostenolone, oxandrolone, testosterone propionate, oxymetholone, nandrolone decanoate, and methenolone enanthate.
Intervention(s)

Twice-weekly injections of 10,000 IU of hCG (Profasi; Serono) and daily injections of 75 IU of hMG (Humegon; Organon) for 3 months.
Main outcome measure(s)

Semen analyses, pregnancy.
Result(s)

Semen analyses returned to normal after 3 months of treatment. The couple conceived spontaneously 7 months later.
Conclusion(s)

Steroid-induced azoospermia that is persistent after cessation of steroid use can be treated successfully with hCG and hMG.

Keywords: Anabolic steroid; azoospermia; human chorionic gonadotropin; human menopausal gonadotropin

So, those doses and the length are kind of hefty. His boys were swimming well and the couple was able to conceive!

[10nispro]

This may be off subject, and if so, please feel free to knock me for it, but if someone gets (snipped), are the leydig cells, that produce test., involved?

[Serotonin]

No they cut the tubes that sperm travel into to join semen before being ejaculated. The testicles still work the same and the sperm degenerate.

[Swifto]

I'm going to try HCG at a low dose when shutdown and see how I get on. It seems to maintain testicular size/function, its worth it.

[Mista Massive]

this is an extremely good and informative thread

[Swifto]

this is an extremely good and informative thread

I know, lets try and keep it going.

Anyone used low dose HCG thoughout their cycle and get results from it?

[Property of Steroid.com]

I know, lets try and keep it going.

Anyone used low dose HCG thoughout their cycle and get results from it?

That's always been my issue with HCG on a cycle. I've never heard someone say "I ran HCG, and I only needed 1/2 the usual doses for my PCT, and I only did PCT for half as long."

You know? I mean we "know" hcg should technically allow us to do that (if it makes recovery "easier")...we should be able to quantify it. If you run HCG, should you use less PCT meds, or for less time, or what? My issue is that we can't quantify what it does for us, in those terms...people just (sometimes) say "My PCT was easier" yet they didn't run less PCT meds and not for a shorter time.

Also...Duchaine reccomended HCG during a cycle (USH1) , as did Bill Phillips (Anabolic Reference Guide) and tons of other people before we saw it on the 'net. It's like...a 2 decade old idea.

Also...the guy who uses that protocol (the Endo) works with people on 100mgs of test cyp a week...not 1-2 grams, like we see here. I don't see him having "real" experience with people like those on s.com.

[plzr8]

i feel that we get "visible" results from HCG after just a couple weeks....which makes me thing that running it throughout entire cycle may be overkill ?....i usually start it about 3 weeks prior to PCT, may start it a couple weeks even earlier this time around as cycle is slightly longer

curious to hear some feedback on those who have actualyl ran it entire cycle and noticed a difference during pct and used less meds as well

[Serotonin]

From the research I've read on HCG, it is usually administered in pretty high dosages and for 3-5 months... Granted, this was to correct azoospermia or some other infertility problems in men but at least that provides some insight to me in how dosing can occur. Clearly the above study I pasted shows the guy getting 20,000IU of HCG in a week... for 3 months!

I agree with Swifto though, my next cycle is going to be way more aggressive than my current and I'm going to run HCG throughout, if for nothing else to see if it will combat hypogonadism.

What are you thinking of running swifto?, I was thinking about 1000iu 2x a week.

[Giants11]

That's always been my issue with HCG on a cycle. I've never heard someone say "I ran HCG, and I only needed 1/2 the usual doses for my PCT, and I only did PCT for half as long."

You know? I mean we "know" hcg should technically allow us to do that (if it makes recovery "easier")...we should be able to quantify it. If you run HCG, should you use less PCT meds, or for less time, or what? My issue is that we can't quantify what it does for us, in those terms...people just (sometimes) say "My PCT was easier" yet they didn't run less PCT meds and not for a shorter time.

Also...Duchaine reccomended HCG during a cycle (USH1) , as did Bill Phillips (Anabolic Reference Guide) and tons of other people before we saw it on the 'net. It's like...a 2 decade old idea.

Also...the guy who uses that protocol (the Endo) works with people on 100mgs of test cyp a week...not 1-2 grams, like we see here. I don't see him having "real" experience with people like those on s.com.

Perhaps the issue is not making one's PCT easier, cause if you are shutdown you are shutdown, but perhaps the real benefit is keeping the leydig cells from becoming desensitized as Swito put it.....?

[Property of Steroid.com]

Perhaps the issue is not making one's PCT easier, cause if you are shutdown you are shutdown, but perhaps the real benefit is keeping the leydig cells from becoming desensitized as Swito put it.....?

Which will do what?

[Swifto]

That's always been my issue with HCG on a cycle. I've never heard someone say "I ran HCG, and I only needed 1/2 the usual doses for my PCT, and I only did PCT for half as long."

You know? I mean we "know" hcg should technically allow us to do that (if it makes recovery "easier")...we should be able to quantify it. If you run HCG, should you use less PCT meds, or for less time, or what? My issue is that we can't quantify what it does for us, in those terms...people just (sometimes) say "My PCT was easier" yet they didn't run less PCT meds and not for a shorter time.

Also...Duchaine reccomended HCG during a cycle (USH1) , as did Bill Phillips (Anabolic Reference Guide) and tons of other people before we saw it on the 'net. It's like...a 2 decade old idea.

Also...the guy who uses that protocol (the Endo) works with people on 100mgs of test cyp a week...not 1-2 grams, like we see here. I don't see him having "real" experience with people like those on s.com.

But their still shutdown, from androgens and testosterone can still be produced when using HCG. From what Swale states. This surely means PCT will be easier, as the testes have a head start. They havent become unresponsive to LH as HCG has been used.

[BG]

I know, lets try and keep it going.

Anyone used low dose HCG thoughout their cycle and get results from it?

Actually Ive been on hrt for over a year know without any hcg. I just recently, say a month or so shut down and just started hcg. Im using a very low dose of 20 iu's ed so far because of acne reasons from last time I used. I can tell I have more semen already, but after sex I still have that empty feeling, like no sensitivity and testes havent grown in size yet. I was thinking if nothing happens within a week of trying a high dose injects for a few days. When I used it for pct I used 1000 ius eod for a total of 10000 ius with fairly good recovery.

[Giants11]

Actually Ive been on hrt for over a year know without any hcg. I just recently, say a month or so shut down and just started hcg. Im using a very low dose of 20 iu's ed so far because of acne reasons from last time I used. I can tell I have more semen already, but after sex I still have that empty feeling, like no sensitivity and testes havent grown in size yet. I was thinking if nothing happens within a week of trying a high dose injects for a few days. When I used it for pct I used 1000 ius eod for a total of 10000 ius with fairly good recovery.

20iu seems very very low considering some of the doses shown in this thread. What else are you taking?

[BG]

20iu seems very very low considering some of the doses shown in this thread. What else are you taking?

Well I just bumped my test up to 300mgs and deca to 150, 2iu's of GH because Im low but it was at 8 iu's for awhile before, 50mcgs of t-4 and 50mgs of proviron.

EDIT: I dont like to publicy tell my AS usage, but for the sake of being honest for this conversation, Ive been on HRT dosage for a year but ran a 5month heavy cyle before , then went to hrt to perserve gains.

[Serotonin]

I can't really find anything on permanent desensitization from HCG. The cells autoregulate, and some studies show after one administration of HCG the cells desensitize but after a few days they upregulate the receptors once again... So, I would say that ***ending on the timing, which seems to be pretty much in concordance with Swale's PCT, you aren't going to have any permanent desensitization.

I'm going to do a lot more research on this and talk to one of my old prof's that has a PhD in physiology and see if maybe he has heard of permanent desensitization of the leydig cells...

[Property of Steroid.com]

I can't really find anything on permanent desensitization from HCG. The cells autoregulate, and some studies show after one administration of HCG the cells desensitize but after a few days they upregulate the receptors once again... So, I would say that ***ending on the timing, which seems to be pretty much in concordance with Swale's PCT, you aren't going to have any permanent desensitization.

I'm going to do a lot more research on this and talk to one of my old prof's that has a PhD in physiology and see if maybe he has heard of permanent desensitization of the leydig cells...

But what is the benefit?

[Swifto]

But what is the benefit?

That your testes are going to be awake and ready for producing testosterone and havent layed dormant for X amount of weeks.

[Property of Steroid.com]

That your testes are going to be awake and ready for producing testosterone and havent layed dormant for X amount of weeks.

Evidence for that? A study? Bloodwork? Or because he's a doctor, and he says so?

[Swifto]

Evidence for that? A study? Bloodwork? Or because he's a doctor, and he says so?

Again, someone qualified in the field should know. Rather than someone who isnt.

You wouldnt take a pilots advice about driving a car. Just like one wouldnt really take an authors advice, over an Endo's.

Evidence would suggest the leydig cells arnt unresponsive or desensitised as their still producing testosterone. Simple.

[Serotonin]

Trying to eliminate the hypogonadism in a very long cycle and preventing the complications that arise during spermatogenesis after AAS use.

[Kratos]

Another factor in prolonged shut down not mentioned yet...after a year testicular atrophy is most likely more substantial, but more importantly the body has not been signaling the testicals at a physiologic level in a much longer amount of time. The hypothalamus and pituitary have not been sending fsh and lh for a long time. If you look at spinal cord injury patients after only a few years the motor cortex can stop sending readable signals for leg movement. I would assume just like not exerciseing a muscle for prolonged periods of time can make muscle recovery more difficult, not using the testicles for prolonged periods of time can make testicle recovery more difficult.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Oh....did I tell you that swale also says that an AI is a bad idea to raise test levels?

Here's a quote about it:

How anyone could recommend an AI to raise T levels is beyond me. It's negative effects with respect to severely lowered estrogen levels makes such advice irresponsible, to say the least.

ha ha. Looks like he needs a few more yuears in medical school and a few less ones in the Gay Bar.

[Swifto]

Swale's a private Endo and to my knowledge, is still practising. So he's doing something right.

I know you dont like Swale and really, as soon as I mentioned his name, knew you'de come flying in to try to discredit his opinoin/theories/views. It was obvious. But I was looking to see if natural T can be maintained and came across his post(s) on CEM.

Which answered my question of, "Can natural T be maintained when hypogondal from androgens?". Swale says, YES.

IMHO, discussion over. Swale is a qualified Endo and specialises in that field. Enough in my book.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Swale's a private Endo and to my knowledge, is still practising. So he's doing something right.

I know you dont like Swale and really, as soon as I mentioned his name, knew you'de come flying in to try to discredit his opinoin/theories/views. It was obvious. But I was looking to see if natural T can be maintained and came across his post(s) on CEM.

Which answered my question of, "Can natural T be maintained when hypogondal from androgens?". Swale says, YES.

IMHO, discussion over. Swale is a qualified Endo and specialises in that field. Enough in my book.

He says yes. He's got no studies or evidence to back him. Not even bloodwork. Isn't that suspicious.

So you think that being a doctor (endo) is enough? Why haven't any champion athletes worked with him? Why was he a mod on a site where nobody ever claimed that he helped resotre their HPTA? Weird, huh?

[Swifto]

Nope. I've got nothing against gay people. Dr.Scuggs (an early HRT doc) is/was gay and was a pioneer in the industry.

Edit: Some doctors work specifically with bodybuilders because they're gay, and ther'es a gay-for-pay involved. Let's get that out on the table. Read the Nolvadex profile. That's a true story of a gay doctor writing a 'script in return for sex, which is what brought nolvadex out of the theoretical realm into the BB'ing world.

It's still happening today.

Yet you make refferences like, "...who won anything more than a blowjob from Swale...".

And, "ha ha. Looks like he needs a few more yuears in medical school and a few less ones in the Gay Bar."

Hhmm....Strange.

He says yes. He's got no studies or evidence to back him. Not even bloodwork. Isn't that suspicious.

So you think that being a doctor (endo) is enough? Why haven't any champion athletes worked with him? Why was he a mod on a site where nobody ever claimed that he helped resotre their HPTA? Weird, huh?

Its a ****ing good reason to believe someone though isnt it. Either way you slice this, he's still a qualified Endo and still practising. So, again, he's doing something right.

He went through years of med school. Some of us didnt. So If all his clients think he's whack, why hasnt he been struck off?

Seems to me like you doing everything in your power to discredit him and his views. Quotes and all.

I'm not getting into one of our debates, with childish responses. I said it in the other 'cyo and gyno' thread. I simply cannot be bothered to argue with members on internet forums going backwards and forwards, over and over.

I'll be using HCG at a low dose when shutdown and I'll see how that goes. If it works, excellent. If not, oh well. I'm sure more protocols and theories will arise as time goes on.

[Property of Steroid.com]

He went through years of med school. Some of us didnt. So If all his clients think he's whack, why hasnt he been struck off?

Seems to me like you doing everything in your power to discredit him and his views. Quotes and all.

Yeah...I mean...who actually thinks an AI will raise test levels. Besides the FACT that it's been medically proven, time and again, and was shown to be safe, SWALE says you shouldn't do it.

So let me ask you:

Does this mean you will no longer use an AI in PCT. Swale said so, and he's an endo. So you need to stop using an AI, right? Because he's correct, because he is an endo. Correct? Or no?

He's been removed form the only board he was ever on that matters, for mental instability, and his former clients say that his advice was cookie-cutter and didn't restore their HPTA. None of his theories are supported by studies or bloodwork.

But hey...he's gone through medical school. So even though all the evidence shows he's wrong, and nothing supports his protocol, the diploma hanging on his wall is much more valid than actual results, I guess.

So will you keep using an AI for PCT, out of curiousity, because clearly SWALE is correct, and we're all wrong, and you shouldn't. So will you?

I'm not getting into one of our debates

We don't debate. You're wrong, and I explain why. You fail to understand it, and reply. That's not a debate.

Now lets see some evidence that HCG will do what you/swale claims it will. Anything. Any study. Any bloodwork. Anything at all.

[x_moe]

I like Cake
(i beat sman to it)

[Swifto]

Yeah...I mean...who actually thinks an AI will raise test levels. Besides the FACT that it's been medically proven, time and again, and was shown to be safe, SWALE says you shouldn't do it.

So let me ask you:

Does this mean you will no longer use an AI in PCT. Swale said so, and he's an endo. So you need to stop using an AI, right? Because he's correct, because he is an endo. Correct? Or no?

He's been removed form the only board he was ever on that matters, for mental instability, and his former clients say that his advice was cookie-cutter and didn't restore their HPTA. None of his theories are supported by studies or bloodwork.

But hey...he's gone through medical school. So even though all the evidence shows he's wrong, and nothing supports his protocol, the diploma hanging on his wall is much more valid than actual results, I guess.

So will you keep using an AI for PCT, out of curiousity, because clearly SWALE is correct, and we're all wrong, and you shouldn't. So will you?


We don't debate. You're wrong, and I explain why. You fail to understand it, and reply. That's not a debate.

Now lets see some evidence that HCG will do what you/swale claims it will. Anything. Any study. Any bloodwork. Anything at all.

I'm going to get back to helping people where I can. Newbie or not Anthony.

Once more. I'm fed up with arguing to and fro with you. And believe me, its not because I think your right and I'm wrong at all. Everything's always a battle. You vs the world.

Post a study otherwise its bullshit, prove this, prove that. Copy and pasting quotes from other boards etc...C'mon, lets try to act like adults once in a while.

I'll stick to what I think is right. You stick to what you think. Its not the end of existance as we as a human race know is it.

You can carry on post after post trying to disagree with me and discredit Swale (and you will now).

But...

I'm done on this thread and with your responses.

[Giants11]

Yeah...I mean...who actually thinks an AI will raise test levels. Besides the FACT that it's been medically proven, time and again, and was shown to be safe, SWALE says you shouldn't do it.

So let me ask you:

Does this mean you will no longer use an AI in PCT. Swale said so, and he's an endo. So you need to stop using an AI, right? Because he's correct, because he is an endo. Correct? Or no?

He's been removed form the only board he was ever on that matters, for mental instability, and his former clients say that his advice was cookie-cutter and didn't restore their HPTA. None of his theories are supported by studies or bloodwork.

But hey...he's gone through medical school. So even though all the evidence shows he's wrong, and nothing supports his protocol, the diploma hanging on his wall is much more valid than actual results, I guess.

So will you keep using an AI for PCT, out of curiousity, because clearly SWALE is correct, and we're all wrong, and you shouldn't. So will you?


We don't debate. You're wrong, and I explain why. You fail to understand it, and reply. That's not a debate.

Now lets see some evidence that HCG will do what you/swale claims it will. Anything. Any study. Any bloodwork. Anything at all.

I do think in certain circumstances an AI should not be used in PCT, at least for the first week or 2.

My reasoning is, if you have a cycle that is already suppressing estrogen, total estrogen would be very low as you enter into PCT. I see no added benefit of lowering further. As there are many issues that can arise when estrogen is too low.

I am not making a point for Swale's statement, rather I am throwing out another point that we can discuss.