Moderate Dose Short Cyles - Steroids for Health!

[AleX-69]

So "Bill Roberts" claim that 2 weeks on, will allow for rapid recovery. While 3 weeks on will not allow for much better recovery than 8 weeks on? (Because its only after 3-weeks that the pituitary, testes and hyphotalmus becomes "really" inhibited.)

Another positive thing about this theory would be that you can probaly avoid sideeffects with "hars" androgens such as trenebolone, when it comes to acne and such. 2 weeks on is not enough time to notice much sides IMO.

Well recovery after 4 weeks is fairly easy, too. LEt me tell you that from first hand expierience + i feel 2 weeks on is simply to short and i have never done a cycle shorter than 28days. So if someone has done a 14 days cycle i would be glad to hear your expieriences..

[vitor]

Well recovery after 4 weeks is fairly easy, too. LEt me tell you that from first hand expierience + i feel 2 weeks on is simply to short and i have never done a cycle shorter than 28days. So if someone has done a 14 days cycle i would be glad to hear your expieriences..

Havent tried the 2on/4off yet, but probaly will soon. I will let you know how it goes.

If someone decide to go over two week I guess 4 weeks would be ideal. I see no benefit for doing 3-weeks on, if that recovery wont be any faster than the 4-week on.

[marcus300]

As this thread is concerning short cycles for the newbie, i would like to give some experience and research ive done regarding this issue. for someone who hasnt used gear before id would say they are better of staying with the standard type of cycling normaly just test only for the standard amount of weeks, this will give them a good base to work from and find out how they respond to AAS.

Now has the user gets more cycles under his belts and try's different compounds, i am sure he should at least try a short cycle to see how he reacts to one, ive seen really good gains from such cycles me included, i feel he should try all types of cycling because we are all different and respond differently, i personaly prefer short cycles because i recover far better than the long type of cycles, i have expierenced some bad sides and mental ones coming of long cycles, and let me tell you its not nice, hormones play a big role in our bodys and i feel the less time your on AAS the better for recovery. this also doesnt mean less gains if you know how to prime correctly you can still gain as much as long cycles but without the sides.

If the newbie type of user is going to use the short cycle he should use the faster acting compounds which will benefit this way of cycling, i am very intrested in the 2on 4 off cycling which i will be trying , this intrest's me alot and i wonder if the same gains can be obtained? i would like to hear from anybody who has cycled that way.

marcus

[sp9]

As this thread is concerning short cycles for the newbie, i would like to give some experience and research ive done regarding this issue. for someone who hasnt used gear before id would say they are better of staying with the standard type of cycling normaly just test only for the standard amount of weeks, this will give them a good base to work from and find out how they respond to AAS.

marcus

Great reminder marcus. Newer people trying strategies like this is what is concerning to me. The first few cycles are all about measuring how your body responds to certain drugs, figuring out what side effects you are prone to, how fast your body recovers, before moving on to more advanced strategies.

Macus' comments there are not in agreement with these statments in the original post:

To prevent those unpleasant occurences in the future I'll post some abstracts by "Realgains" and "Muscletrainee" which outline the moderate dose short cycle approach. I feel that this one is very well suited for steroid newbies even if some might disagree.

That is my concern (Alex), do you really beileive people who are trying this (steroids) for the first time or first few times, should attempt this strategy? Most people start with one drug...test, the add one at a time each cycle to learn how they react to the new drug.

Maybe after they have done a few cycles, have real data from tests on their own bodies about how they react to a list of drugs, then they could try something like this?

[AleX-69]

That is my concern (Alex), do you really beileive people who are trying this for the first time or first few times, should attempt this strategy? Most people start with one drug...test, the add one at a time each cycle to learn how they react to the new drug.

Maybe after they have done a few cycles, have real data from tests on their own bodies about how they react to a list of drugs, then they could try something like this?

Well you and marcus got a point there. mY first cycle was low dose test / deca for 10 weeks and i didn't regret doing it.
So basicly I think you both are right advising a standard low dose 10-12 weeker for the 1st time user to "ease" him into more advanced aas use.
Short cycles are rather complex and everything has to be in check (diet, trainig..) to take the full effect.. That might be another reason why newbies are better of doing a traditional cycle as their 1st cycle. (also edited my initial post that way)
Thx for the input bros. Always appreciated!

[sp9]

Well you and marcus got a point there. mY first cycle was low dose test / deca for 10 weeks and i didn't regret doing it.
So basicly I think you both are right advising a standard low dose 10-12 weeker for the 1st time user to "ease" him into more advanced aas use.
Short cycles are rather complex and everything has to be in check (diet, trainig..) to take the full effect.. That might be another reason why newbies are better of doing a traditional cycle as their 1st cycle. (also edited my initial post that way)
Thx for the input bros. Always appreciated!

Thanks for those comments, much appreciated.

There are also other people who have done a few cycles, I feel should stick to more basic cycles. An, example:

The average person, who has to work a 50-60 hours week, or in addition, may be going to college part time at night, has a wife, maybe a child, stresses just to fit in their workouts.

Someone like that is not going to have the focus or drive to manage the dedication needed for a more advanced strategy. While many people on this board are body builders, or striving to become them, I would say that most people here are either 1)people who feel they have reached their natural peak and want to see if they can go further (no body building aspirations), or 2) Someone who has not reached their natural peak and is looking for a short cut. (We see these type of people post threads all day long, when they have not created a good diet, or workout plan and are frustrated).

SP9 - out.

[marcus300]

Normaly the first time user experiences good quality gains all the way through a standard cycle, so long as his diet and training are in order, this is due to him never having gear before in his system so he responds in a big way, as the user gets more cycles under his belt he finds out that he is not gaining like he use to, this is due to him getting use to the state his body his in durring a cycle, this is the time to try other things, i feel to many BB's just up the amount of gear and weeks to try and get the same benefit as he use to, the end result is more sides and harder recovery.

So many BB's report that their gains really slow after week 6, so i feel these BB's should try this appoach and see how they gain and respond,

I must stress that any cycle especailly short cycles the priming of the body is one of the most advantages he can do, if this is done correctly the gains are amazing in such a short time and this is due to the diet and training beforehand.

[AleX-69]

I must stress that any cycle especailly short cycles the priming of the body is one of the most advantages he can do, if this is done correctly the gains are amazing in such a short time and this is due to the diet and training beforehand.

/singed

[AleX-69]

Well if you meant it that way i apologize! I was under the impression you wanted to to use sust and test e alongside of each other.

Nevertheless i don't think the cycle you mentioned is a good short cycle by any means..

1) he does not front load the longer acting injectables
2) he uses sust to get test levels up relativley fast (i assume) why isn't he using prop?
3) he starts primo on cycle day 3...?? wtf?
i could go on and on...

Moreover I think Montana is a retard.. check out his conversation with lyle mcdonald if you want a good laugh

http://groups.google.com/group/misc....d&rnum=1&hl=en

Honestly if you really want to do a short cycle I suggest you stick with the sample cycles given by Realgains.

regards

[fitguy]

Well if you meant it that way i apologize! I was under the impression you wanted to to use sust and test e alongside of each other.

Nevertheless i don't think the cycle you mentioned is a good short cycle by any means..

1) he does not front load the longer acting injectables
2) he uses sust to get test levels up relativley fast (i assume) why isn't he using prop?
3) he starts primo on cycle day 3...?? wtf?
i could go on and on...

Moreover I think Montana is a retard.. check out his conversation with lyle mcdonald if you want a good laugh

http://groups.google.com/group/misc....d&rnum=1&hl=en

Honestly if you really want to do a short cycle I suggest you stick with the sample cycles given by Realgains.

regards

hey alex i was going to do a test deca cycle after 4 months , i have plenty of time to run a short cycle and try it before running my test deca bulker so i am thinking of trying one and see how it works for me , if i get good results i might just stick to that type of cycling and cancel my long deca susta cycle cause i tend to see more sides when running a long cycle , so can i do a good short cycle using test prop,suspension and dbol ...

ps: hairloss is a concern thats why i dont like using winny or anadrol..peace bro

[AleX-69]

hey alex i was going to do a test deca cycle after 4 months , i have plenty of time to run a short cycle and try it before running my test deca bulker so i am thinking of trying one and see how it works for me , if i get good results i might just stick to that type of cycling and cancel my long deca susta cycle cause i tend to see more sides when running a long cycle , so can i do a good short cycle using test prop,suspension and dbol ...

ps: hairloss is a concern thats why i dont like using winny or anadrol..peace bro

If hairloss is your concern - test can cause hairloss as can d-bol.
But you certainly could do a short cycle consisting of test prop and d-bol.

If i remeber correctly you already got one cycle under your belt, but your stats indicate that you have not yet reached your natural potential. If i were you I'd try to build up more muscle without the use of ass + learn more about training and diet. This is not to offend you, just a well-meant advise to think about.

regards

[fitguy]

If hairloss is your concern - test can cause hairloss as can d-bol.
But you certainly could do a short cycle consisting of test prop and d-bol.

If i remeber correctly you already got one cycle under your belt, but your stats indicate that you have not yet reached your natural potential. If i were you I'd try to build up more muscle without the use of ass + learn more about training and diet. This is not to offend you, just a well-meant advise to think about.

regards

i will be using finasteride along with test and dbol and maybe some nizoral , finasteride should stop loss from test and can help with hairloss from dbol i think, so what is a good cycle and doses using test prop and dbol ?

[AleX-69]

eliminating androgens using proscar or generic finasteride might not be the best idea, as strong androgens play a vital role in short cycles.
I also quoted an article from "blade" where he listed several benefits of highly androgenic compounds (i.e. tren).
Using nizoral is a good idea on the other hand.

Dosage wise I'd run prop at 75mg/ED and d-bol at 30mg/ED. No need to use astronomical dosages.. especially not for someone who is several lbs away from his natural limit.

I only post dosages here, as I am completly aware that you will do a cycle no matter was the others or I have to say.
So I figured the best way was to outline a reasonable dosed short cycle b4 you go overboard with dosages you read somewhere else.

regards

[tallyjuice]

Great ****en article. After doing 4 big bulkers and losing a lot of what I gained because of trying too cut to quickly without full hpta restoration, I finally did 3 four week tbol only cycles (1st at 40mg/day, 2nd at 50, 3rd at 60). I am now 20 pounds heavier at 8%bf. I started at 10. God bless the recovery on short cycles. DO NOT GO PAST FOUR WEEKS!!! Oh yeah, IGF-1 during time off is great for keeping with good recovery. Make this thread a sticky. There was great discussion throughout this thread.

[Ntpadude]

Great ****en article. After doing 4 big bulkers and losing a lot of what I gained because of trying too cut to quickly without full hpta restoration, I finally did 3 four week tbol only cycles (1st at 40mg/day, 2nd at 50, 3rd at 60). I am now 20 pounds heavier at 8%bf. I started at 10. God bless the recovery on short cycles. DO NOT GO PAST FOUR WEEKS!!! Oh yeah, IGF-1 during time off is great for keeping with good recovery. Make this thread a sticky. There was great discussion throughout this thread.

I find like many, some weight loss and muscle loss is expected when off cycle, however next time you go on... well myself with androgen dependant muscle memory, it typically only takes me 10 days on to recover EVERYTHING lost over 3 months time off. I think that is the catch that ropes in dudes into doing more then 1 or 2 cycles a year, because when you go back on you regain everything lost FAST and with reduced tollerance gain gain gain more then where you left off last.

I've done 600 mg deca and 1000 mg test before, ironically I am being cheap and taking it light this time, 400 mg test e and 250 wk of tren enanthate and I am for some reason in a much more anabolic condition now then last time. Dont know if its the tren but my gains are so... well I never been so dried out before, veins everywhere, muscle shreds, gaining up with no water at all and zero fat gain. But personally I have found I can do back on cycle with lesser doses and grow like hell.

[AleX-69]

Estimates have already been made in the articles i qouted.. 5-15lbs.. depending on training, diet, cardio, pct... but you already know that.

[fitguy]

Estimates have already been made in the articles i qouted.. 5-15lbs.. depending on training, diet, cardio, pct... but you already know that.

thanks bro i guess i am going to run a short cycle as u outlined before running my long test deca cycle, i am going to keep u guys updated on how it works ..peace ..

[goose]

I would say nandrolone phyenylpropionate would be great in a 2 week cycle,as a primary anabolic.

goose4..

[JohnnyB]

Since someone asked me to look at this, I'll say this, the idea has been around for over 2 years, maybe even 3, if it was that great why aren't people raving about on all the boards? The idea sounds good but it doesn't work like you'd think. Here's the problem, your first shot starts to shut you down. Look at the chart in this thread http://67.18.108.244//showthread.php?t=201798

The chart shows 1 injection of 1-4mls of norandrolone, 3 with the decanote ester and 1 of 4ml with the phenyl-propionate. I'm going to guess the lowest point is around 7 days in that chart, grant it, the levels return faster then the norandrolone with the decaonate ester, but we are talking 1 injection. So add 6 more injection to a 2 week cycle and you can see that you'll be shut down even more, add 7 more, for a 4 week cycle and you can see that you'll be shut down like any other cycle. This is based on a eod injection schedule, if you ed you can expect recovery to take longer. Using tren will give the same shut down effect as norandrolone since they are both 19-nor steroids.

The whole problem with this idea is that you never fully recover and you never do the time on=time off that is recommended, for the health of your HPTA. Grant it you may not have the lipid problems, but you're exchanging it for HPTA problems. You need to let your HPTA maintain your natural level for a period of time so that it is functioning right. You bring it back to normal and then shut it down again before it's had a chance to maintain your natural levels. You are asking for trouble in the near or distant future. I remember a couple of years back there were a few guys have sexual problem while on a cycle. I asked all of them questions and the one thing that was the same with all of them, is they started a new cycle right after they finished PCT.

Here something that I find interesting, the reason for doing this type of cycling is to avoid a bad lipid profile, but d-bol and winny the 2 worst drug on the lipid panel, are recommended, that makes no sense to me.

Once your HPTA is shut down it'll take the same amount of time to recover as if you ran a 8-12 week cycle. The idea that HCG is going to make the difference because of ed injections, shows that the reason for the use of HCG isn't fully understood here. HCG during a cycle does zero for the HPTA, all it does is keeps the boys alive, so that your body has one less thing to recover from. So using it ed is going to speed up anything, that e3d inject wouldn't do. One more thing one 1500iu dose has been shown to cause desensitization of the testes, I'm wondering what ed injection of 500iu will do over the 2-4 weeks of a cycle. If it does cause the desensitization of the testes to LH, recovery of the HPTA will be harder to obtain. The testes need to respond to LH to start the HPTA to produce natural testorterone levels.

Like I mentioned earlier the idea has been around for a long time, but it hasn't caught on, why? My guess is because it doesn't work the way it does on paper. Bottom line, there's no way to do gear at the doses we use and avoid some kind of side effect.

JohnnyB

[AleX-69]

The chart shows 1 injection of 1-4mls of norandrolone, 3 with the decanote ester and 1 of 4ml with the phenyl-propionate. I'm going to guess the lowest point is around 7 days in that chart, grant it, the levels return faster then the norandrolone with the decaonate ester, but we are talking 1 injection. So add 6 more injection to a 2 week cycle and you can see that you'll be shut down even more, add 7 more, for a 4 week cycle and you can see that you'll be shut down like any other cycle. This is based on a eod injection schedule, if you ed you can expect recovery to take longer. Using tren will give the same shut down effect as norandrolone since they are both 19-nor steroids.

You are right that your bodys own test production is shut down by the end of the second week, but the pituitary itself takes a longer time to become unresponsive to potential LHRH stimulation.
So when it "senses" LHRH from the hypothalamus it will respond fairly well and let the LH fly!
Now if the nuts have not shrunk much , and they won't in 4 weeks, then they will be able to respond well to LH.

"partially quoted from realgains"

[JohnnyB]

You are right that your bodys own test production is shut down by the end of the second week, but the pituitary itself takes a longer time to become unresponsive to potential LHRH stimulation.
So when it "senses" LHRH from the hypothalamus it will respond fairly well and let the LH fly!
Now if the nuts have not shrunk much , and they won't in 4 weeks, then they will be able to respond well to LH.

"partially quoted from realgains"

So why did you recommend HCG?

JohnnyB

[AleX-69]

The whole problem with this idea is that you never fully recover and you never do the time on=time off that is recommended, for the health of your HPTA. Grant it you may not have the lipid problems, but you're exchanging it for HPTA problems. You need to let your HPTA maintain your natural level for a period of time so that it is functioning right. You bring it back to normal and then shut it down again before it's had a chance to maintain your natural levels. You are asking for trouble in the near or distant future. I remember a couple of years back there were a few guys have sexual problem while on a cycle. I asked all of them questions and the one thing that was the same with all of them, is they started a new cycle right after they finished PCT.

You are right on this one. That is why I personally wouldn't advocate 4on / 4 off. I suggested a longer off period (6-8wks) on page 1 in this thread beacuse of HPTA and HDL/LDL recovery reasons..

[JohnnyB]

You are right on this one. That is why I personally wouldn't advocate 4on / 4 off. I suggested a longer off period (6-8wks) on page 1 in this thread beacuse of HPTA and HDL/LDL recovery reasons..

Then you don't agree with the original posters of this idea. So here's my question to you, and if you've covered it please forgive me. I will admit I didn't read every post to much to go through as mentioned already.

What have your results been and do you have any pictures? As I mentioned this idea has been around for a long time and it hasn't caught on with those on these boards. I have seen it brought up more then once since it came out and have never seen a post by someone that has used the method and had something good to say about it. Believe me I've been on these boards for almost 4 years now and have never seen anyone say anything good about it that has used it. I've heard lots of people say they were going to try it. The reason I believe no one has said they used it is cause, there's lots of people that disagree with this method, so people don't want to admit that they tried it and it didn't work, they don't want to be the one that didn't listen but did it anyway.

JohnnyB

[AleX-69]

Then you don't agree with the original posters of this idea. So here's my question to you, and if you've covered it please forgive me. I will admit I didn't read every post to much to go through as mentioned already.

What have your results been and do you have any pictures? As I mentioned this idea has been around for a long time and it hasn't caught on with those on these boards. I have seen it brought up more then once since it came out and have never seen a post by someone that has used the method and had something good to say about it. Believe me I've been on these boards for almost 4 years now and have never seen anyone say anything good about it that has used it. I've heard lots of people say they were going to try it. The reason I believe no one has said they used it is cause, there's lots of people that disagree with this method, so people don't want to admit that they tried it and it didn't work, they don't want to be the one that didn't listen but did it anyway.

JohnnyB

Yes I have done short cycles!
Yes I did see good results from them! (thats why i started this thread )

Let me lay out my cycle history and why i have done some short cycles. I'm not that expierienced with roids as some of the other users on this board are, but see for yourself:

2002: 1st cycle test/deca - everything went fine gained approx 20lbs - 15kept but felt kinda shitty afterwards (depressed sort of)
2003: 2nd cylce test/EQ - gained weight (approx 25lbs) but wasn't sastisfied with the qualtiy (also gained fat)... maybe 8lbs muscle I suppose i got fake gear. Defentily felt bad after the cycle..!
2004: 3rd cylce prop/OT 4 weeks (low dose): gained 9lbs of which i kept 7. No problem coming off.
4th cycle prop/OT 4 weeks (moderate dose): gained 12lbs of which i kept 9.
2005:: 5th cycle prop/var (diet): gained 5lbs, kept all + lost a good amount of bf
2006: 6th cycle var only / 8 wks (diet): in week 6 right now and I'm already up 3lbs + lost a good amount of bodyfat.

So you see my main reason why i tried short cycles was 'cause it was kinda hard for me to come off a longer cycle...
On reason short cycles seem to work for me fairly well is, that i tend to response very quickly to aas. It might be a bit more difficult to produce satisfying reslust for guys with lower aas responsivness (or it simply may require higher dosages )

Between my cycles there has always been plenty of off time - 12 weeks min!
That is why i can not comment on HCG that much. I simply don't use it as i don't string short cycles toghether.
Moreover for me there is no need to rush things + i always prefer to keep dosages sane as long as i gain weight. I have no ambition to compete ..


I'd like to add one more comment in general. There are certainly users of short cycles who had sucess. Some of them are even here on this board i.e. marcus, xtralarg, tallyjuice and others. Moreover there a several users who report to make their best gains in the first 4 weeks of a cycle (G-Force approx 20lbs,....).
In addition I want to point out that several of the newer steroid compounds (M1T, SD, Ergomax LMG, Phera-Plex) are only used for short periods of time! There has been an abundance of positive feedback concerning these cycles.
If you can achieve positive resulst with these compounds why should it be impossible with "the real deal" ?

regards and thx for your input.

[Pinnacle]

I'd like to add one more comment in general. There are certainly users of short cycles who had sucess. Some of them are even here on this board i.e. marcus, xtralarg, and others.

Now you sound like a cheap salesman pitching an idea.You know all to well the short cycles marcus talks about are very different from the shit posted here.I in fact recently ran one with great success,BUT I would NEVER EVER think about running a cycle like you are trying to sell on this board.Why you ask?Because they make No sense at all.Maybe you haven't noticed the poor response you got to this thread?You've made the majority of the posts here trying to dump this bullshit down everyones throat.I don't see ppl flooding to ask questions about this bullshit...maybe no ones buys it,that's why.

~Pinnacle~

[JohnnyB]

Yes I have done short cycles!
Yes I did see good results from them! (thats why i started this thread )

Let me lay out my cycle history and why i have done some short cycles. I'm not that expierienced with roids as some of the other users on this board are, but see for yourself:

2002: 1st cycle test/deca - everything went fine gained approx 20lbs - 15kept but felt kinda shitty afterwards (depressed sort of)
2003: 2nd cylce test/EQ - gained weight (approx 25lbs) but wasn't sastisfied with the qualtiy (also gained fat)... maybe 8lbs muscle I suppose i got fake gear. Defentily felt bad after the cycle..!
2004: 3rd cylce prop/OT 4 weeks (low dose): gained 9lbs of which i kept 7. No problem coming off.
4th cycle prop/OT 4 weeks (moderate dose): gained 12lbs of which i kept 9.
2005:: 5th cycle prop/var (diet): gained 5lbs, kept all + lost a good amount of bf
2006: 6th cycle var only / 8 wks (diet): in week 6 right now and I'm already up 3lbs + lost a good amount of bodyfat.

So you see my main reason why i tried short cycles was 'cause it was kinda hard for me to come off a longer cycle...
On reason short cycles seem to work for me fairly well is, that i tend to response very quickly to aas. It might be a bit more difficult to produce satisfying reslust for guys with lower aas responsivness (or it simply may require higher dosages )

Between my cycles there has always been plenty of off time - 12 weeks min!
That is why i can not comment on HCG that much. I simply don't use it as i don't string short cycles toghether.
Moreover for me there is no need to rush things + i always prefer to keep dosages sane as long as i gain weight. I have no ambition to compete ..


I'd like to add one more comment in general. There are certainly users of short cycles who had sucess. Some of them are even here on this board i.e. marcus, xtralarg, tallyjuice and others. Moreover there a several users who report to make their best gains in the first 4 weeks of a cycle (G-Force approx 20lbs,....).
In addition I want to point out that several of the newer steroid compounds (M1T, SD, Ergomax LMG, Phera-Plex) are only used for short periods of time! There has been an abundance of positive feedback concerning these cycles.
If you can achieve positive resulst with these compounds why should it be impossible with "the real deal" ?

regards and thx for your input.

Now I'm getting to know you and what you think. I see a pattern with what you thought were your best cycle and they involved fat lose. I think our philosophies are pretty much the same but we come at it from different angels. I'm not a high dose guy, I see LBM as the key to a cycle not the number of lbs gain, cause they can be fat too. I go for LBM cycles over a bulker, the problem I see with these gains of 20lbs more or less in the first 4 weeks, is there's a good amount of fat involved. I believe while using gear you should avoid gaining fat as much as possible, espescially if you are worried about your lipid panel.

Your depression was from your natural test levels being low, this is why I recommend HCG with cyles over 8 weeks and any cycle that has a 19-nor steroid in it.

Now back to the real deal I'm not familar with those compounds you mentioned, my question is how much of those gains do they keep? To the best of my knowledge the qucik fix orals are mostly water weight, the real deal that is

I'm with you, we need to do cycle that have health as it's basic priority, don't go for more mass at the risk of your health. Mass being, muscle and fat, lean mass should be the priority and if possibile fat lose with it. I know lots of guys that have done short cycle and loved them, but they were in the 6-8 week range. There was one that gained 20 or 22 lbs in 8 weeks and dropped I believe 2 to 4% BF, now that's a beautiful thing.

So as I said I think we are coming from the same philosiphy of health first, just different angels. There are some that come from a totally different angel and thais low dose cycle of 10-12 or more weeks, they have their philosiphy and I do see it. I've read a study that showed 300mg of test didn't do much to the lipid profile and there was some fat lose.

Bro I like doing this, I believe this is the way these boards should be, us giving our idea and respectfully debating them.

JohnnyB

[Ntpadude]

You are right on this one. That is why I personally wouldn't advocate 4on / 4 off. I suggested a longer off period (6-8wks) on page 1 in this thread beacuse of HPTA and HDL/LDL recovery reasons..

If deca or tren get involved, well deca for one continues shut down for 4 weeks after a shot, so if you time off at week 4 and restart 4 weeks later, you never even restarted. This time on=time off thing needs some clarification. Time OFF doesnt start until ALL the steriods have worn off completely so in the case of Deca you have 3.5 weeks, EQ takes 4.5 weeks (before its even practical to start clomid therapy that is), this is where in ALL CASES the minimum time off has to be 10 weeks rather you were on only 4 weeks or 10 weeks. I think if you do testosterone enanthate only, then your 4 week on/4 week off is suitable because testosterone enanthate doesnt shut down your natural production for about 3 weeks so if you are 4 weeks on and 4 weeks off, your total shutdown time during this time frame is 2.5 maybe 3 weeks, so short that actually AS your testosterone is wearing off, your natural testosterone is picking up the gap... probably dont even have enough time to have any inhibitory amounts of estrogen in this short time frame. And believe it or not, many guys have done testosterone only cycles of even 10 weeks and noticed absolutely NO changes to lipids or blood pressure. Some authors claim estrogen to be the worst steroid but I think in real world, other then gyno for the prone to gyno guys, nothing is safer with fewer side effects then testosterone. I want to add to another guy's notice... dbol and winny are terrible on lipids... but you can add anadrol and M1T to this list as the top of the artery cloggers list.

[AleX-69]

If deca or tren get involved, well deca for one continues shut down for 4 weeks after a shot, so if you time off at week 4 and restart 4 weeks later, you never even restarted. This time on=time off thing needs some clarification. Time OFF doesnt start until ALL the steriods have worn off completely so in the case of Deca you have 3.5 weeks, EQ takes 4.5 weeks (before its even practical to start clomid therapy that is), this is where in ALL CASES the minimum time off has to be 10 weeks rather you were on only 4 weeks or 10 weeks. I think if you do testosterone enanthate only, then your 4 week on/4 week off is suitable because testosterone enanthate doesnt shut down your natural production for about 3 weeks so if you are 4 weeks on and 4 weeks off, your total shutdown time during this time frame is 2.5 maybe 3 weeks, so short that actually AS your testosterone is wearing off, your natural testosterone is picking up the gap... probably dont even have enough time to have any inhibitory amounts of estrogen in this short time frame. And believe it or not, many guys have done testosterone only cycles of even 10 weeks and noticed absolutely NO changes to lipids or blood pressure. Some authors claim estrogen to be the worst steroid but I think in real world, other then gyno for the prone to gyno guys, nothing is safer with fewer side effects then testosterone. I want to add to another guy's notice... dbol and winny are terrible on lipids... but you can add anadrol and M1T to this list as the top of the artery cloggers list.

a lot of good points in there. But plz i never said 4 on / 4off would be suitable. You even quoted me where i said i#d suggest longer off times.

Moreover you are right that long estered injectables have to be stoped a reasonable amount b4 the end of cycle to allow nearly complete steriod cleanse b4 pct begins.

[tallyjuice]

a lot of good points in there. But plz i never said 4 on / 4off would be suitable. You even quoted me where i said i#d suggest longer off times.

Moreover you are right that long estered injectables have to be stoped a reasonable amount b4 the end of cycle to allow nearly complete steriod cleanse b4 pct begins.

4on/4off is more than suitable if you are doing low dose. I know many people that have done them with no problem in recovery. Also, you should look at Swale's (Dr. John) comments on HCG use. No more than 250iu per administration because anymore is counterproductive. Also, he tore Bill Roberts to shit in a forum. This Dr. does so much HRT bloodwork on his patients...it's incredible.

[AleX-69]

Here something that I find interesting, the reason for doing this type of cycling is to avoid a bad lipid profile, but d-bol and winny the 2 worst drug on the lipid panel, are recommended, that makes no sense to me.

You got a good point there.
Nevertheless short cycling tries to eliminate a shitty lipid profile for a prolonged time thus reducing the risk of developing ateriosclerosis ant the like.
But I agree that it would be even safer to consider roids which would not be that bad on the "lipid panel". On the other hand these drugs have a fairly low androgenic activity as far as i know (NPP...). so there is always some sort of tradeoff between desired effects and side effects.

[AleX-69]

Once your HPTA is shut down it'll take the same amount of time to recover as if you ran a 8-12 week cycle. The idea that HCG is going to make the difference because of ed injections, shows that the reason for the use of HCG isn't fully understood here. HCG during a cycle does zero for the HPTA, all it does is keeps the boys alive, so that your body has one less thing to recover from. So using it ed is going to speed up anything, that e3d inject wouldn't do. One more thing one 1500iu dose has been shown to cause desensitization of the testes, I'm wondering what ed injection of 500iu will do over the 2-4 weeks of a cycle. If it does cause the desensitization of the testes to LH, recovery of the HPTA will be harder to obtain. The testes need to respond to LH to start the HPTA to produce natural testorterone levels.

right HCG does nothing for the HPTA. It only prevents your balls from shrinkage and keeps them responsive to LH.
I don't think it is neccessary to incorporate HCG in a short cycle at all!

I doubt you find one post of me where i do recommend HCG in a short cycle.

Having said that i know that HCG is recommened in the articles i quoted, if several short cycles are done in a row to prevent testicular athrophy:

There will be some testicular shrinkage in any cycle so if you do 4 "on" 4 "off" for several cycles in a row then it would be a good idea to use hcg at 500iu's every 3rd day while "on" to prevent testicular atrophy...the 4 weeks "off" may not be enough time to allow for complete testicular recovery and over the span of several cycles this may impact your HPTA recovery.

this seems to be exactly what you advocate...


the other post you referring to was an article from bill roberts who advocates a use of 500iu ed and you are right on that one concerning the dosage recommedations IMHO.

[JohnnyB]

the other post you referring to was an article from bill roberts who advocates a use of 500iu ed and you are right on that one concerning the dosage recommedations IMHO.

When you post someone elses post, you need to either leave out what you don't agree with or explain why you don't agree. But from most of your answer here, I would say you shouldn't of post any of them and just wrote what you think of the issue, you seem to disagree with the major point of the whole idea.

JohnnyB

[AleX-69]

When you post someone elses post, you need to either leave out what you don't agree with or explain why you don't agree. But from most of your answer here, I would say you shouldn't of post any of them and just wrote what you think of the issue, you seem to disagree with the major point of the whole idea.

JohnnyB

Well I don't disagree with the majority of points. But there are certainly some points I disagree with.
By quoting this arcticles i wanted to give as much information on short cycles to the board members. So that everybody can decide for themselves if short cycles suit their needs. I stated my own opinion on some of the points mentioned within this thread. But basicly i think i don't disagree with enough points to write my own "short cycle theory" or whatever.. I do not want credits for sth I haven't "invented" myself..

regards

[JohnnyB]

right HCG does nothing for the HPTA. It only prevents your balls from shrinkage and keeps them responsive to LH.

That's not entirely true, 1500iu of HCG has been shown to desensitize the testes to LH, so it's dose dependent, HCG can have the oppsoite effect at the wrong dose(s).

So have you used this method and what were your results? I would bet, more then just me is waiting for this answer

JohnnyB

[marcus300]

Since someone asked me to look at this, I'll say this, the idea has been around for over 2 years, maybe even 3, if it was that great why aren't people raving about on all the boards? The idea sounds good but it doesn't work like you'd think

JohnnyB

Short cycling as been around for years infact its been around as long as long cycles have, its used widely throughout Europe with great effect, why people are not raving about it on this board is because alot of BB' are stuck in their ways and the mojority follow certain BB's round like a flock of sheep saying exactly what others are saying, eventually everyone is saying the same thing.

I personaly like the whole idea of short cycling because of the less sides and health reasons, i know looking back through my cycle diary that when ever ive done a shorter cycle ive recovered far better and sooner, i know what certain studies say that its the same recovery and its the same level of sides or even worse, but through my bodybuilding research ive seen so many conflicting studies its laughable, the best thing to have is first hand experience on how it works for you, i have enough time off a short cycle which is required for me to get back to normal then i start priming for a long time then design my next cycle, there is no set rule with the time off.

I fully understand that this way of cycling is not for everyone, but its worth considering because you never know you may get the same results as a long cycle,

Now my way of short cycling is completely different than the standard short cycle which is written in this thread, ive found a way to push me past a sticking point and get the same results as i do or even better than a standard cycle or long one,am not just talking about gear here its also the prime which is a usefull tool to have in any cycle, if its done correctly.

When i do a standard short cycle its normaly a cutter cycle with fast esters, but am open to discussion with any kind of cycling because there are many ways which cycles work, you just have to find the one which works best for your body, its impossible to say they are rubbish because to the next man they might be the best thing since slice bread, never dismiss anything we are all different in how we respond to AAS. I remember once what Dorian said when he retired in a seminar in England, his body responds with short intesne training and gear, hit it hard for a short period and rest and recover, he said that was with every aspect of bodybuilding for him. which i must add is not what this thread is about, more the theory in the short heavy thread.

[AleX-69]

Short cycling as been around for years infact its been around as long as long cycles have, its used widely throughout Europe with great effect, why people are not raving about it on this board is because alot of BB' are stuck in their ways and the mojority follow certain BB's round like a flock of sheep saying exactly what others are saying, eventually everyone is saying the same thing.

I personaly like the whole idea of short cycling because of the less sides and health reasons, i know looking back through my cycle diary that when ever ive done a shorter cycle ive recovered far better and sooner, i know what certain studies say that its the same recovery and its the same level of sides or even worse, but through my bodybuilding research ive seen so many conflicting studies its laughable, the best thing to have is first hand experience on how it works for you, i have enough time off a short cycle which is required for me to get back to normal then i start priming for a long time then design my next cycle, there is no set rule with the time off.

I fully understand that this way of cycling is not for everyone, but its worth considering because you never know you may get the same results as a long cycle,

Now my way of short cycling is completely different than the standard short cycle which is written in this thread, ive found a way to push me past a sticking point and get the same results as i do or even better than a standard cycle or long one,am not just talking about gear here its also the prime which is a usefull tool to have in any cycle, if its done correctly.

When i do a standard short cycle its normaly a cutter cycle with fast esters, but am open to discussion with any kind of cycling because there are many ways which cycles work, you just have to find the one which works best for your body, its impossible to say they are rubbish because to the next man they might be the best thing since slice bread, never dismiss anything we are all different in how we respond to AAS. I remember once what Dorian said when he retired in a seminar in England, his body responds with short intesne training and gear, hit it hard for a short period and rest and recover, he said that was with every aspect of bodybuilding for him. which i must add is not what this thread is about, more the theory in my thread i started.

Very well said!

[Pinnacle]

Johnny B-

Very true...this cycle thoery has been around quite a bit longer than 2 yrs actually.Just as you are doing now,was done years back.That is blow holes all through this theory.In fact,it's actually useless especially when you look at the doses/drugs implied here.

MudMan brought up another great point..

Quote.. "I like the idea of short cycles in theory for health purposes but only with the right compounds. For advance users that have cycled before this can be another way to go about running cycles to get past small plateau. But for a new user to the game the basic test cycle for 10 weeks is the way to go. You might as well get as mush from the cycle as you possibly can......JMO"..end Quote

This thread will slowly sink into history,just as other have in the past.


~Pinnacle~

[JohnnyB]

Johnny B-

Very true...this cycle thoery has been around quite a bit longer than 2 yrs actually.Just as you are doing now,was done years back.That is blow holes all through this theory.In fact,it's actually useless especially when you look at the doses/drugs implied here.

MudMan brought up another great point..

Quote.. "I like the idea of short cycles in theory for health purposes but only with the right compounds. For advance users that have cycled before this can be another way to go about running cycles to get past small plateau. But for a new user to the game the basic test cycle for 10 weeks is the way to go. You might as well get as mush from the cycle as you possibly can......JMO"..end Quote

This thread will slowly sink into history,just as other have in the past.


~Pinnacle~

I knew it's been around for a long time, I couldn't remember if was around when I first started or not. I repect all of those guys except nelson, I just don't agree with them.

JohnnyB

[AleX-69]

Johnny B-

Quote.. "I like the idea of short cycles in theory for health purposes but only with the right compounds. For advance users that have cycled before this can be another way to go about running cycles to get past small plateau. But for a new user to the game the basic test cycle for 10 weeks is the way to go. You might as well get as mush from the cycle as you possibly can......JMO"..end Quote

~Pinnacle~

I agree with that statement. My first post in this thread indicates that 1st time users may be better off using a traditional cycle.

[AleX-69]

*edited*