Moderate Dose Short Cyles - Steroids for Health!

[fitguy]

read up on roids more b4 asking dumb questions.. sry bout that but i don't know why you would want to incorporate both sutst + test en in one cycle...

Here is an example of Nelsons three weeker.

WEEK ONE
DAY ONE sust 250mg, day 3 primo 100mg, day 5 primo 100mg, day 7 primo 100mg. 25 of d-bol in divided doses per day.

WEEK TWO
Test cyp or enanthate 100mg, day 10 primo 100mg and day 12 primo 100mg, day 14 primo 100mg. 25 of winny per day

WEEK THREE
day 16 primo 100, day 18 primo 100, day 20 primo 100 and day 22 primo 100 and also anavar 25 per day

then wtf is that ????

[AleX-69]

Well if you meant it that way i apologize! I was under the impression you wanted to to use sust and test e alongside of each other.

Nevertheless i don't think the cycle you mentioned is a good short cycle by any means..

1) he does not front load the longer acting injectables
2) he uses sust to get test levels up relativley fast (i assume) why isn't he using prop?
3) he starts primo on cycle day 3...?? wtf?
i could go on and on...

Moreover I think Montana is a retard.. check out his conversation with lyle mcdonald if you want a good laugh

http://groups.google.com/group/misc....d&rnum=1&hl=en

Honestly if you really want to do a short cycle I suggest you stick with the sample cycles given by Realgains.

regards

[TheMudMan]

Here is an example of Nelsons three weeker.

WEEK ONE
DAY ONE sust 250mg, day 3 primo 100mg, day 5 primo 100mg, day 7 primo 100mg. 25 of d-bol in divided doses per day.

WEEK TWO
Test cyp or enanthate 100mg, day 10 primo 100mg and day 12 primo 100mg, day 14 primo 100mg. 25 of winny per day

WEEK THREE
day 16 primo 100, day 18 primo 100, day 20 primo 100 and day 22 primo 100 and also anavar 25 per day

then wtf is that ????

I don't understand what is supposed to be done with the Test in this either.

If I was going to do a short cycle I would use all fast acting compounds: Like suspension, prop, winny, var, halo, tren........... there are others but you get the idea. With long acting test and other compounds like in the above cycle the user is never getting to a steady blood plasma levels because the time is short.

I like the idea of short cycles in theory for health purposes but only with the right compounds. For advance users that have cycled before this can be another way to go about running cycles to get past small plateau. But for a new user to the game the basic test cycle for 10 weeks is the way to go. You might as well get as mush from the cycle as you possibly can......JMO

[tallyjuice]

Great ****en article. After doing 4 big bulkers and losing a lot of what I gained because of trying too cut to quickly without full hpta restoration, I finally did 3 four week tbol only cycles (1st at 40mg/day, 2nd at 50, 3rd at 60). I am now 20 pounds heavier at 8%bf. I started at 10. God bless the recovery on short cycles. DO NOT GO PAST FOUR WEEKS!!! Oh yeah, IGF-1 during time off is great for keeping with good recovery. Make this thread a sticky. There was great discussion throughout this thread.

[fitguy]

Well if you meant it that way i apologize! I was under the impression you wanted to to use sust and test e alongside of each other.

Nevertheless i don't think the cycle you mentioned is a good short cycle by any means..

1) he does not front load the longer acting injectables
2) he uses sust to get test levels up relativley fast (i assume) why isn't he using prop?
3) he starts primo on cycle day 3...?? wtf?
i could go on and on...

Moreover I think Montana is a retard.. check out his conversation with lyle mcdonald if you want a good laugh

http://groups.google.com/group/misc....d&rnum=1&hl=en

Honestly if you really want to do a short cycle I suggest you stick with the sample cycles given by Realgains.

regards

hey alex i was going to do a test deca cycle after 4 months , i have plenty of time to run a short cycle and try it before running my test deca bulker so i am thinking of trying one and see how it works for me , if i get good results i might just stick to that type of cycling and cancel my long deca susta cycle cause i tend to see more sides when running a long cycle , so can i do a good short cycle using test prop,suspension and dbol ...

ps: hairloss is a concern thats why i dont like using winny or anadrol..peace bro

[AleX-69]

hey alex i was going to do a test deca cycle after 4 months , i have plenty of time to run a short cycle and try it before running my test deca bulker so i am thinking of trying one and see how it works for me , if i get good results i might just stick to that type of cycling and cancel my long deca susta cycle cause i tend to see more sides when running a long cycle , so can i do a good short cycle using test prop,suspension and dbol ...

ps: hairloss is a concern thats why i dont like using winny or anadrol..peace bro

If hairloss is your concern - test can cause hairloss as can d-bol.
But you certainly could do a short cycle consisting of test prop and d-bol.

If i remeber correctly you already got one cycle under your belt, but your stats indicate that you have not yet reached your natural potential. If i were you I'd try to build up more muscle without the use of ass + learn more about training and diet. This is not to offend you, just a well-meant advise to think about.

regards

[fitguy]

If hairloss is your concern - test can cause hairloss as can d-bol.
But you certainly could do a short cycle consisting of test prop and d-bol.

If i remeber correctly you already got one cycle under your belt, but your stats indicate that you have not yet reached your natural potential. If i were you I'd try to build up more muscle without the use of ass + learn more about training and diet. This is not to offend you, just a well-meant advise to think about.

regards

i will be using finasteride along with test and dbol and maybe some nizoral , finasteride should stop loss from test and can help with hairloss from dbol i think, so what is a good cycle and doses using test prop and dbol ?

[AleX-69]

eliminating androgens using proscar or generic finasteride might not be the best idea, as strong androgens play a vital role in short cycles.
I also quoted an article from "blade" where he listed several benefits of highly androgenic compounds (i.e. tren).
Using nizoral is a good idea on the other hand.

Dosage wise I'd run prop at 75mg/ED and d-bol at 30mg/ED. No need to use astronomical dosages.. especially not for someone who is several lbs away from his natural limit.

I only post dosages here, as I am completly aware that you will do a cycle no matter was the others or I have to say.
So I figured the best way was to outline a reasonable dosed short cycle b4 you go overboard with dosages you read somewhere else.

regards

[fitguy]

eliminating androgens using proscar or generic finasteride might not be the best idea, as strong androgens play a vital role in short cycles.
I also quoted an article from "blade" where he listed several benefits of highly androgenic compounds (i.e. tren).
Using nizoral is a good idea on the other hand.

Dosage wise I'd run prop at 75mg/ED and d-bol at 30mg/ED. No need to use astronomical dosages.. especially not for someone who is several lbs away from his natural limit.

I only post dosages here, as I am completly aware that you will do a cycle no matter was the others or I have to say.
So I figured the best way was to outline a reasonable dosed short cycle b4 you go overboard with dosages you read somewhere else.


regards

how much should i expect from such a cycle?

[AleX-69]

how much should i expect from such a cycle?

No one can tell exactly what you will gain from a certain cycle there are a bunch of other factors involved than just gear..

[fitguy]

No one can tell exactly what you will gain from a certain cycle there are a bunch of other factors involved than just gear..

i only want a range to know how much to expect to gain and keep from a short cycle...

[AleX-69]

Estimates have already been made in the articles i qouted.. 5-15lbs.. depending on training, diet, cardio, pct... but you already know that.

[fitguy]

Estimates have already been made in the articles i qouted.. 5-15lbs.. depending on training, diet, cardio, pct... but you already know that.

thanks bro i guess i am going to run a short cycle as u outlined before running my long test deca cycle, i am going to keep u guys updated on how it works ..peace ..

[Ntpadude]

it is more about how difficult it is to recover, not if it is impossible.
Realgains has seen his own test production actually overcompensate a bit after a short cycle.. I bet you don't see that after a 12 weeker..

What about studies that shown patients on 250 mg deca and 600 mg testosterone Cyp with 75% of normal levels of LH and FSH at the 8th week when taking tongkat ali along with the steroids?

[Ntpadude]

Great ****en article. After doing 4 big bulkers and losing a lot of what I gained because of trying too cut to quickly without full hpta restoration, I finally did 3 four week tbol only cycles (1st at 40mg/day, 2nd at 50, 3rd at 60). I am now 20 pounds heavier at 8%bf. I started at 10. God bless the recovery on short cycles. DO NOT GO PAST FOUR WEEKS!!! Oh yeah, IGF-1 during time off is great for keeping with good recovery. Make this thread a sticky. There was great discussion throughout this thread.

I find like many, some weight loss and muscle loss is expected when off cycle, however next time you go on... well myself with androgen dependant muscle memory, it typically only takes me 10 days on to recover EVERYTHING lost over 3 months time off. I think that is the catch that ropes in dudes into doing more then 1 or 2 cycles a year, because when you go back on you regain everything lost FAST and with reduced tollerance gain gain gain more then where you left off last.

I've done 600 mg deca and 1000 mg test before, ironically I am being cheap and taking it light this time, 400 mg test e and 250 wk of tren enanthate and I am for some reason in a much more anabolic condition now then last time. Dont know if its the tren but my gains are so... well I never been so dried out before, veins everywhere, muscle shreds, gaining up with no water at all and zero fat gain. But personally I have found I can do back on cycle with lesser doses and grow like hell.

[AleX-69]

What about studies that shown patients on 250 mg deca and 600 mg testosterone Cyp with 75% of normal levels of LH and FSH at the 8th week when taking tongkat ali along with the steroids?

don't know that particular study but would be glad if you could post it.
Nvertheless i was just saying recovery from a 2-4 weeker would be easier than from a traditional 10-12 week cycle.
Sure Longjack might help making recovery easier for longer cycles but not easier overall i bet. Moreover i does not help a shitty lipid profile...

[Ntpadude]

don't know that particular study but would be glad if you could post it.
Nvertheless i was just saying recovery from a 2-4 weeker would be easier than from a traditional 10-12 week cycle.
Sure Longjack might help making recovery easier for longer cycles but not easier overall i bet. Moreover i does not help a shitty lipid profile...

I had a blood test after 8 months on 600 mg deca and 1000 mg testosterone e... I took NO anti-estrogens, just not prone to gyno here, so I allowed my estrogen levels to climb... I was under 190 in total cholesterol, 39 in HDL, triglicerides were high but thats explainable because I eat Wendy's triples frequently for lunch during workday. For me I held together my lipids because Estrogen actually increases HDL and lowers LDL, so using anti-aromatase drugs are disasterous... when I took Liquid Dex on one cycle, that stuff gave me a 10 on HDL and total cholesterol of 250. I believe most of the bad lipids are coming from use of aromatase inhibitors. Oh I took tongkat ali for 5 months of the 8 month deca cycle, I sail right into PCT with "improving sex drive all the way", the more the steroids wore off, the better the sex drive got... 2 weeks after last injection I was jacking off 3 times a day and constantly horny... stayed that way 3 months after last deca because I continued tongkat ali from on cycle and on thru PCT non-stop.

[AleX-69]

I had a blood test after 8 months on 600 mg deca and 1000 mg testosterone e... I took NO anti-estrogens, just not prone to gyno here, so I allowed my estrogen levels to climb... I was under 190 in total cholesterol, 39 in HDL, triglicerides were high but thats explainable because I eat Wendy's triples frequently for lunch during workday. For me I held together my lipids because Estrogen actually increases HDL and lowers LDL, so using anti-aromatase drugs are disasterous... when I took Liquid Dex on one cycle, that stuff gave me a 10 on HDL and total cholesterol of 250. I believe most of the bad lipids are coming from use of aromatase inhibitors. Oh I took tongkat ali for 5 months of the 8 month deca cycle, I sail right into PCT with "improving sex drive all the way", the more the steroids wore off, the better the sex drive got... 2 weeks after last injection I was jacking off 3 times a day and constantly horny... stayed that way 3 months after last deca because I continued tongkat ali from on cycle and on thru PCT non-stop.

Good info all the way! Thx bro...

[helium3]

well im sold as far as short cycles go,im going to start my cycle in 2 weeks and will post results accordingly.if it doesnt go that well ill not have to wait too long to try a different cycle.at the end of the day not alot of people on here have started on short cycles so why should they think that they work?
ive had some good advice and im going to use it.cheers

[goose]

I would say nandrolone phyenylpropionate would be great in a 2 week cycle,as a primary anabolic.

goose4..

[JohnnyB]

Since someone asked me to look at this, I'll say this, the idea has been around for over 2 years, maybe even 3, if it was that great why aren't people raving about on all the boards? The idea sounds good but it doesn't work like you'd think. Here's the problem, your first shot starts to shut you down. Look at the chart in this thread http://67.18.108.244//showthread.php?t=201798

The chart shows 1 injection of 1-4mls of norandrolone, 3 with the decanote ester and 1 of 4ml with the phenyl-propionate. I'm going to guess the lowest point is around 7 days in that chart, grant it, the levels return faster then the norandrolone with the decaonate ester, but we are talking 1 injection. So add 6 more injection to a 2 week cycle and you can see that you'll be shut down even more, add 7 more, for a 4 week cycle and you can see that you'll be shut down like any other cycle. This is based on a eod injection schedule, if you ed you can expect recovery to take longer. Using tren will give the same shut down effect as norandrolone since they are both 19-nor steroids.

The whole problem with this idea is that you never fully recover and you never do the time on=time off that is recommended, for the health of your HPTA. Grant it you may not have the lipid problems, but you're exchanging it for HPTA problems. You need to let your HPTA maintain your natural level for a period of time so that it is functioning right. You bring it back to normal and then shut it down again before it's had a chance to maintain your natural levels. You are asking for trouble in the near or distant future. I remember a couple of years back there were a few guys have sexual problem while on a cycle. I asked all of them questions and the one thing that was the same with all of them, is they started a new cycle right after they finished PCT.

Here something that I find interesting, the reason for doing this type of cycling is to avoid a bad lipid profile, but d-bol and winny the 2 worst drug on the lipid panel, are recommended, that makes no sense to me.

Once your HPTA is shut down it'll take the same amount of time to recover as if you ran a 8-12 week cycle. The idea that HCG is going to make the difference because of ed injections, shows that the reason for the use of HCG isn't fully understood here. HCG during a cycle does zero for the HPTA, all it does is keeps the boys alive, so that your body has one less thing to recover from. So using it ed is going to speed up anything, that e3d inject wouldn't do. One more thing one 1500iu dose has been shown to cause desensitization of the testes, I'm wondering what ed injection of 500iu will do over the 2-4 weeks of a cycle. If it does cause the desensitization of the testes to LH, recovery of the HPTA will be harder to obtain. The testes need to respond to LH to start the HPTA to produce natural testorterone levels.

Like I mentioned earlier the idea has been around for a long time, but it hasn't caught on, why? My guess is because it doesn't work the way it does on paper. Bottom line, there's no way to do gear at the doses we use and avoid some kind of side effect.

JohnnyB

[AleX-69]

The chart shows 1 injection of 1-4mls of norandrolone, 3 with the decanote ester and 1 of 4ml with the phenyl-propionate. I'm going to guess the lowest point is around 7 days in that chart, grant it, the levels return faster then the norandrolone with the decaonate ester, but we are talking 1 injection. So add 6 more injection to a 2 week cycle and you can see that you'll be shut down even more, add 7 more, for a 4 week cycle and you can see that you'll be shut down like any other cycle. This is based on a eod injection schedule, if you ed you can expect recovery to take longer. Using tren will give the same shut down effect as norandrolone since they are both 19-nor steroids.

You are right that your bodys own test production is shut down by the end of the second week, but the pituitary itself takes a longer time to become unresponsive to potential LHRH stimulation.
So when it "senses" LHRH from the hypothalamus it will respond fairly well and let the LH fly!
Now if the nuts have not shrunk much , and they won't in 4 weeks, then they will be able to respond well to LH.

"partially quoted from realgains"

[AleX-69]

The whole problem with this idea is that you never fully recover and you never do the time on=time off that is recommended, for the health of your HPTA. Grant it you may not have the lipid problems, but you're exchanging it for HPTA problems. You need to let your HPTA maintain your natural level for a period of time so that it is functioning right. You bring it back to normal and then shut it down again before it's had a chance to maintain your natural levels. You are asking for trouble in the near or distant future. I remember a couple of years back there were a few guys have sexual problem while on a cycle. I asked all of them questions and the one thing that was the same with all of them, is they started a new cycle right after they finished PCT.

You are right on this one. That is why I personally wouldn't advocate 4on / 4 off. I suggested a longer off period (6-8wks) on page 1 in this thread beacuse of HPTA and HDL/LDL recovery reasons..

[JohnnyB]

You are right that your bodys own test production is shut down by the end of the second week, but the pituitary itself takes a longer time to become unresponsive to potential LHRH stimulation.
So when it "senses" LHRH from the hypothalamus it will respond fairly well and let the LH fly!
Now if the nuts have not shrunk much , and they won't in 4 weeks, then they will be able to respond well to LH.

"partially quoted from realgains"

So why did you recommend HCG?

JohnnyB

[AleX-69]

Here something that I find interesting, the reason for doing this type of cycling is to avoid a bad lipid profile, but d-bol and winny the 2 worst drug on the lipid panel, are recommended, that makes no sense to me.

You got a good point there.
Nevertheless short cycling tries to eliminate a shitty lipid profile for a prolonged time thus reducing the risk of developing ateriosclerosis ant the like.
But I agree that it would be even safer to consider roids which would not be that bad on the "lipid panel". On the other hand these drugs have a fairly low androgenic activity as far as i know (NPP...). so there is always some sort of tradeoff between desired effects and side effects.

[JohnnyB]

You are right on this one. That is why I personally wouldn't advocate 4on / 4 off. I suggested a longer off period (6-8wks) on page 1 in this thread beacuse of HPTA and HDL/LDL recovery reasons..

Then you don't agree with the original posters of this idea. So here's my question to you, and if you've covered it please forgive me. I will admit I didn't read every post to much to go through as mentioned already.

What have your results been and do you have any pictures? As I mentioned this idea has been around for a long time and it hasn't caught on with those on these boards. I have seen it brought up more then once since it came out and have never seen a post by someone that has used the method and had something good to say about it. Believe me I've been on these boards for almost 4 years now and have never seen anyone say anything good about it that has used it. I've heard lots of people say they were going to try it. The reason I believe no one has said they used it is cause, there's lots of people that disagree with this method, so people don't want to admit that they tried it and it didn't work, they don't want to be the one that didn't listen but did it anyway.

JohnnyB

[AleX-69]

Once your HPTA is shut down it'll take the same amount of time to recover as if you ran a 8-12 week cycle. The idea that HCG is going to make the difference because of ed injections, shows that the reason for the use of HCG isn't fully understood here. HCG during a cycle does zero for the HPTA, all it does is keeps the boys alive, so that your body has one less thing to recover from. So using it ed is going to speed up anything, that e3d inject wouldn't do. One more thing one 1500iu dose has been shown to cause desensitization of the testes, I'm wondering what ed injection of 500iu will do over the 2-4 weeks of a cycle. If it does cause the desensitization of the testes to LH, recovery of the HPTA will be harder to obtain. The testes need to respond to LH to start the HPTA to produce natural testorterone levels.

right HCG does nothing for the HPTA. It only prevents your balls from shrinkage and keeps them responsive to LH.
I don't think it is neccessary to incorporate HCG in a short cycle at all!

I doubt you find one post of me where i do recommend HCG in a short cycle.

Having said that i know that HCG is recommened in the articles i quoted, if several short cycles are done in a row to prevent testicular athrophy:

There will be some testicular shrinkage in any cycle so if you do 4 "on" 4 "off" for several cycles in a row then it would be a good idea to use hcg at 500iu's every 3rd day while "on" to prevent testicular atrophy...the 4 weeks "off" may not be enough time to allow for complete testicular recovery and over the span of several cycles this may impact your HPTA recovery.

this seems to be exactly what you advocate...


the other post you referring to was an article from bill roberts who advocates a use of 500iu ed and you are right on that one concerning the dosage recommedations IMHO.

[JohnnyB]

the other post you referring to was an article from bill roberts who advocates a use of 500iu ed and you are right on that one concerning the dosage recommedations IMHO.

When you post someone elses post, you need to either leave out what you don't agree with or explain why you don't agree. But from most of your answer here, I would say you shouldn't of post any of them and just wrote what you think of the issue, you seem to disagree with the major point of the whole idea.

JohnnyB

[JohnnyB]

right HCG does nothing for the HPTA. It only prevents your balls from shrinkage and keeps them responsive to LH.

That's not entirely true, 1500iu of HCG has been shown to desensitize the testes to LH, so it's dose dependent, HCG can have the oppsoite effect at the wrong dose(s).

So have you used this method and what were your results? I would bet, more then just me is waiting for this answer

JohnnyB

[Pinnacle]

Johnny B-

Very true...this cycle thoery has been around quite a bit longer than 2 yrs actually.Just as you are doing now,was done years back.That is blow holes all through this theory.In fact,it's actually useless especially when you look at the doses/drugs implied here.

MudMan brought up another great point..

Quote.. "I like the idea of short cycles in theory for health purposes but only with the right compounds. For advance users that have cycled before this can be another way to go about running cycles to get past small plateau. But for a new user to the game the basic test cycle for 10 weeks is the way to go. You might as well get as mush from the cycle as you possibly can......JMO"..end Quote

This thread will slowly sink into history,just as other have in the past.


~Pinnacle~

[JohnnyB]

Johnny B-

Very true...this cycle thoery has been around quite a bit longer than 2 yrs actually.Just as you are doing now,was done years back.That is blow holes all through this theory.In fact,it's actually useless especially when you look at the doses/drugs implied here.

MudMan brought up another great point..

Quote.. "I like the idea of short cycles in theory for health purposes but only with the right compounds. For advance users that have cycled before this can be another way to go about running cycles to get past small plateau. But for a new user to the game the basic test cycle for 10 weeks is the way to go. You might as well get as mush from the cycle as you possibly can......JMO"..end Quote

This thread will slowly sink into history,just as other have in the past.


~Pinnacle~

I knew it's been around for a long time, I couldn't remember if was around when I first started or not. I repect all of those guys except nelson, I just don't agree with them.

JohnnyB

[tallyjuice]

what type of pct would you do for 50 mg dbol for four weeks?

[mesomorph]

I liked the case study by "Bill Roberts" on "Jim".

2 on/4 off, sounds like something I want to try.

Way back when Roberts posted that article I looked back on the site for follow-up for a long itme...., I don't remember "Jim" ever going back on after 4 weeks off. it turned into a single 2 week cycle. I didn't put much creedance into the whole thing after that.

I do think cycles like 4 on 4 off are pretty effective, using short esters.

[sp9]

what type of pct would you do for 50 mg dbol for four weeks?

Is this a serious question? Just asking because this is one of the most highly not recommended cycles of all time.

[tallyjuice]

I meant tbol, and yes I'm serious.

[tallyjuice]

I meant tbol, and yes I'm serious.

[tallyjuice]

I've done three cycle like this with much success. I used 2 weeks of clomid and nolva with three weeks off. I just wanted to know if everyone else would follow the same pct protocol.

[sp9]

I've done three cycle like this with much success. I used 2 weeks of clomid and nolva with three weeks off. I just wanted to know if everyone else would follow the same pct protocol.

Sure. I have not used tbol before so I can't recommend a proper pct. Hopefully someone will answer.

[goose]

For PCT for Tbol,just use nolva at 20mg ED.

goose4..

[JohnnyB]

Any PCT should be done until your sex drive is back in full swing, never put a time limit on PCT. I know it what every one recommends 3 weeks of clomid or 4 of nolva. How can we put a time limit on PCT for someone using 1500mg of gear and the same for someone using 500mg.

JohnnyB