A challenge to militiaguy

[Cycleon]

I defy you or any other muslim here to find me any proof that the quran requires women to wear a burqua or a hijab or chador - in fact dress in any way at all except to dress "modestly" - all that other crap is a modern arab invention - not one bit of religion in it only the repressive tradition of goathearders who think of women as their slaves. - Look at the drawings we have of the islamic societies up untill just the last 100-200 years and you will not find it - even in the ottoman empires, or anywhere else

and do not give me this crap about women wearing it so that arab men can value them not for their looks but rather their minds and modesty - because arab men value women about as much as they do a dog - the woman is really only safe if she has his children - then, while he will screw other women, he will want to keep her at least as "mother of his children" - women have no voice whatsoever

[Da Bull]

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[LilVito469]

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u crack me up LOL....

[barbarian]

yea lets hear it..........

[MilitiaGuy]

I defy you or any other muslim here to find me any proof that the quran requires women to wear a burqua or a hijab or chador - in fact dress in any way at all except to dress "modestly" - all that other crap is a modern arab invention - not one bit of religion in it only the repressive tradition of goathearders who think of women as their slaves. - Look at the drawings we have of the islamic societies up untill just the last 100-200 years and you will not find it - even in the ottoman empires, or anywhere else

and do not give me this crap about women wearing it so that arab men can value them not for their looks but rather their minds and modesty - because arab men value women about as much as they do a dog - the woman is really only safe if she has his children - then, while he will screw other women, he will want to keep her at least as "mother of his children" - women have no voice whatsoever

Allah, the Creator of humans, knows our nature better than ourselves, and thus He has prescribed appropriate rules of behavior and appearance to be observed when men and women interact with one another. These rules of interaction also include a prescription for modest dressing, which applies to men as well as women. Almighty Allah says, "Say to the believing men to lower their gazes and guard their chastity…” (An-Nur: 30) He also says: “And tell the believing women to lower their eyes, and guard their modesty, and that they display not their ornaments except what appears of them.” (An-Nur: 31)


In his response to the question in point, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:


You are commended for your desire to set the matter straight on the matter of hijab. You are also to be commended for your attempt to find the required information through the most authentic sources in Islam, namely the Qur’an and the Sunnah.


Having said this, however, I must advise you to approach these sources by using the proper methodology;. Since the Qur’an was revealed in the Arabic language, we must understand its meanings by reference to the usage and conventions of that language. To use a translation, however accurate it may be, often does not properly convey the full nuances of the revealed Word.


Let us now turn to the specific verse on hijab in the Qur’an: “And tell the believing women to lower their eyes, and guard their modesty, and that they display not their ornaments except what appears of them. And that they draw their scarves (khumurihinna) over their bosoms…” (An-Nur: 31)


The word used in this context is khumur which has been variously translated as veils or scarves; the latter is more precise for it is the plural of khimar, which has been defined as “a woman’s head covering; a piece of cloth with which a woman covers her head.” (See Ibn Manzur, Lisan al-`Arab.) Imam Raghib al-Isfahani in his famous work, Mufradat alfadh al-Qur’an defines the terms by saying, “The root meaning of the word is to cover, and the khimar, therefore, is the cover or veil, but it has become synonymous with veil with which a woman covers her head (i.e., headscarf); the plural of the word is khumur (as used in the Qur’an: An-Nur: 31).” Because, according to the Arabic usage, covering the head is the most important function of khimar, no scholar in the past that we know of has ever disputed the fact that women are commanded by Allah to cover their heads; they only argued whether the face and hands are also included in the above order. The majority of scholars are of the opinion that they are allowed to uncover their faces and hands.


Furthermore, one of the basic principles of the Qur’anic exegesis is that we must seek to understand the Qur’anic verses as they were originally revealed to, received, understood, and applied by the Companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), both men and women. We have incontrovertible evidence in the sources to suggest that it is in the above sense, and in the above sense alone, that they related to, and applied the above verse. We read the report of `A’ishah, the beloved wife of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) who said: “By Allah, I never saw more excellent women than those of the Ansar in their zeal to believe and act according to the Revelation. When Allah revealed the verse, “and let them draw their veils over their bosoms”, their men rushed to their homes in order to recite the same to their wives, daughters and sisters and relatives. No sooner they heard the verse, everyone of their women without exception rushed to cut a piece of their long gowns and covered themselves with it, and thus they stood behind the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) with their heads covered as if they had crows sitting on them (because of the color of their head-scarves)!” (See Tafsir works such as those of Ibn Jarir, al-Qurtubi and Ibn Kathir, etc.)


In light of the above, it is easy to conclude that covering the head (and not the face and hands) is a stated requirement of the proper Islamic attire for Muslim women. It is clearly not one of those scholarly interpretations which one may choose to accept or ignore but a clear commandment of Allah stated in the Qur’an. May Allah guard us all against the evil inclinations of our souls and help us to remain steadfast on the truth. Amen.

[Powrlftr]

Allah, the Creator of humans, knows our nature better than ourselves, and thus He has prescribed appropriate rules of behavior and appearance to be observed when men and women interact with one another. These rules of interaction also include a prescription for modest dressing, which applies to men as well as women. Almighty Allah says, "Say to the believing men to lower their gazes and guard their chastity…” (An-Nur: 30) He also says: “And tell the believing women to lower their eyes, and guard their modesty, and that they display not their ornaments except what appears of them.” (An-Nur: 31)

But it's ok to go around murdering people who don't agree with you ......

[RP7]

Militiaguy that picture in your sig looks like some ****ed up Palestinian nazi rally

[MilitiaGuy]

Militiaguy that picture in your sig looks like some ****ed up Palestinian nazi rally

this is the hizbollah brigade wher i served ...not palestinians

[RP7]

this is the hizbollah brigade wher i served ...not palestinians

Are you guys pretending you're airborne with those maroon berets?

[GQ-Bouncer]

this is the hizbollah brigade wher i served ...not palestinians

dude, learn how to form your ****in beret

second, your armies are third-rate - no military general in the world would, if be given the choice take a arab army to command given the choice of a NATO army

why would allah let his people be overrun by christians?

[Carlos_E]

why would allah let his people be overrun by christians?

Probably the same reason God let the same thing happen to Christians and Jews in the past.

So that leaves 2 questions. #1 Are we all worshipping the same God and just calling him a different name? And #2 Is there a God? Why would he let this happen?

[zOaib]

Probably the same reason God let the same thing happen to Christians and Jews in the past.

So that leaves 2 questions. #1 Are we all worshipping the same God and just calling him a different name? And #2 Is there a God? Why would he let this happen?

there is only ONE GOD only we have made to believe in him in different ways n call him different names .......... but do remeber u ask why GOD let this happen ......... its been trail n test throughout the ages ........... he even LET THE PHAROAH enjoy 500 yrs of opression israelites before he gave the pharoah n his rule a GOD SMACK !

[BajanBastard]

Militiaguy that picture in your sig looks like some ****ed up Palestinian nazi rally

It DOES look like i nazi party rally. Hail Hitler!! LOL

[CAUSASIAN]

Militiaguy that picture in your sig looks like some ****ed up Palestinian nazi rally

http://www.pcpages.com/ani/polgr/ina...zi/hezbsal.jpg

Groups like Hizbollah are the future in Military Militias.

[BOUNCER]

Bull, thats one seriously funny reply.

[Ryanhallmark]

Ahhh I don't get it..I just don't understand arab counties....And I don't want to sound naive, but who the hell are the hizbollah brigade ?? Some military group?

[physio_sport]

Ahhh I don't get it..I just don't understand arab counties....And I don't want to sound naive, but who the hell are the hizbollah brigade ?? Some military group?

its a lebenease political party/para-militry.
what they are is questionable depending where you live in the world.
if you live in israel,america,turkey you could consider them a terrorist orginisation but then again these countries call anyone a terrorist who they dont like. right now usa has cuba and north korea on the list of state sponsers of terrorism and the list of "axis of evil".
while in the other parts of the world mainly alot of european countres,middle east,asia all consider hezbollah a freedom figthing group or political party or a para-militry.

[juicehoe]

its a lebenease political party/para-militry.
what they are is questionable depending where you live in the world.
if you live in israel,america,turkey you could consider them a terrorist orginisation but then again these countries call anyone a terrorist who they dont like. right now usa has cuba and north korea on the list of state sponsers of terrorism and the list of "axis of evil".
while in the other parts of the world mainly alot of european countres,middle east,asia all consider hezbollah a freedom figthing group or political party or a para-militry.

not to hijack, but are u doubting north korea as a foe?

[singern]

[QUOTE=while in the other parts of the world mainly alot of european countres,middle east,asia all consider hezbollah a freedom figthing group or political party or a para-militry.[/QUOTE]



Fighting freedom from who. Lebanon is occupied by Syria, overrun by Syrian military, and controlled by Iranian Hizbula, yet they attack Israel. That sure seems like cross border international TERRORISM to me, and should to any other rational person.

[CAUSASIAN]

Fighting freedom from who. Lebanon is occupied by Syria, overrun by Syrian military, and controlled by Iranian Hizbula, yet they attack Israel. That sure seems like cross border international TERRORISM to me, and should to any other rational person.

True Muslims dont divide nations by nationality or ethnicity, but religion.

[chicamahomico]

They are the world's most fierce and powerful army......when one of thier warriors rasies his arms overhead the smell can render a hundred square miles uninhabitable for generations.

Bump for this debate to continue. I think MGuy provided ample explanation but with the translation clause I am not sur ethis debate could go much further.

Ahhh I don't get it..I just don't understand arab counties....And I don't want to sound naive, but who the hell are the hizbollah brigade ?? Some military group?

[palequail]

I care lots about this.....keep going please..J/k

[PrairieDawg]

yeah your sig isnt helping your image any militaguy

[sepjuice]

yeah your sig isnt helping your image any militaguy

hey prairiedawg,i love the avatar

[Spoon]

ive seen how supposedly holymen treat women in Afghanistan. women were not allowed to read, education to them was banned and they were treated and flogged like ordinary beasts of burden. Although Afghanistan being the worst case possible example, other muslim nations generally have a culture of degradation and repression towards their women.

[bad_man]

ive seen how supposedly holymen treat women in Afghanistan. women were not allowed to read, education to them was banned and they were treated and flogged like ordinary beasts of burden. Although Afghanistan being the worst case possible example, other muslim nations generally have a culture of degradation and repression towards their women.

I've seen how supposed holymen (Catholic Priests) treat little boys in downtown Philadelphia, Boston, New York, etc. Don't allow the actions of a bunch of jerkoffs to create in your mind an assessment of an entire race or religion.

[Spoon]

I've seen how supposed holymen (Catholic Priests) treat little boys in downtown Philadelphia, Boston, New York, etc. Don't allow the actions of a bunch of jerkoffs to create in your mind an assessment of an entire race or religion.

true bro, my point was that their are bad eggs even the supposedly "holy men" the catholic church and men of the cloth not spared. im glad you brought that up. the point is the way some of these hardcore old muslims still treat women bad, most muslims countries have already given women equal status and oppurtunities. its the few that is still giving the entiritey a bad name.

[bermich]

ive seen how supposedly holymen treat women in Afghanistan. women were not allowed to read, education to them was banned and they were treated and flogged like ordinary beasts of burden. Although Afghanistan being the worst case possible example, other muslim nations generally have a culture of degradation and repression towards their women.

Devils advocate here. Not too long ago, we treated (England, America) women almost the same way. They had no rights, were not educated, not allowed to many things other than clean and serve the man. If we didnt have lawyers, Im sure women would still be close to house bound without any college education.

[rambo]

women would still be close to house bound without any college education.

Like it should be. Where's my sandwich?

[zOaib]

ive seen how supposedly holymen treat women in Afghanistan. women were not allowed to read, education to them was banned and they were treated and flogged like ordinary beasts of burden. Although Afghanistan being the worst case possible example, other muslim nations generally have a culture of degradation and repression towards their women.

and what do we do here in the USA , ANYONE ? , dress thme up in thongs , toos them on titty bar displays , fcuk as many as possible in our lives , display our true americna hood on JERRY SPRINGER ! .............. our women so called liberal are way to liberal in their ways ! we r the biggest womanizing nation in the world , NOW talking about women coverign their heads in islam i think is very respectful , since i see the christian nuns doing the same thing ! which makes you all look like @$$e$ when u talk aobut women opression in the third world countries .............. when we have the highest divorce rate in the world , cause we have become more DOGS than the rest of them out there !

[zOaib]

if anyone of u here has never committed adultery or fornication fo any kind then i can hear them talk about women in arabian countries coverign their heads n all , and whatever the case ................ but to talk on that level u need to even believe in religion and GOD himself ............... i am just astounded that how stupid our fellow americans are , who fart out opinions when they themselves are standing in much FILTH than the rest of them ! WHEN U ALL STOP WOMANISING and take adultery as A SIN and vice versa for FEMALES here ! come n talk about other peoples modesty , ill be right here waiting , !

[OGPackin]

if anyone of u here has never committed adultery or fornication fo any kind then i can hear them talk about women in arabian countries coverign their heads n all , and whatever the case ................ but to talk on that level u need to even believe in religion and GOD himself ............... i am just astounded that how stupid our fellow americans are , who fart out opinions when they themselves are standing in much FILTH than the rest of them ! WHEN U ALL STOP WOMANISING and take adultery as A SIN and vice versa for FEMALES here ! come n talk about other peoples modesty , ill be right here waiting , !

blah, blah ,blah....boy u can sure ramble on about nothing. Seems like u dont appreciate the freedoms u and i, and everyone else here enjoys in the GOOD'ol US of A! I think u need to go spend some time in one of these 3rd world countries and really see how the other half lives. Its easy to talk ur BS behind ur nice new computer and sitting in ur comfy chair!

GOD BLESS AMERICA and the FREEDOMS SHE OFFERS US!

OG

[zOaib]

blah, blah ,blah....boy u can sure ramble on about nothing. Seems like u dont appreciate the freedoms u and i, and everyone else here enjoys in the GOOD'ol US of A! I think u need to go spend some time in one of these 3rd world countries and really see how the other half lives. Its easy to talk ur BS behind ur nice new computer and sitting in ur comfy chair!

GOD BLESS AMERICA and the FREEDOMS SHE OFFERS US!

OG

bro ! i have travelled more than u and lived outside USA for over 14 yrs , i have served in the US army ! FYI ............ and was stationed in afghanistan & kuwait for 3 yrs .............. so before u start farting out your opinions go and learn some geography ! 80% people in florida dont even know there is a whole lotta USA out there beyond this state , and they got their opinions about third world countries !

[Tock]

if anyone of u here has never committed adultery or fornication fo any kind then i can hear them talk about women in arabian countries coverign their heads n all , and whatever the case ................ but to talk on that level u need to even believe in religion and GOD himself ............... i am just astounded that how stupid our fellow americans are , who fart out opinions when they themselves are standing in much FILTH than the rest of them ! WHEN U ALL STOP WOMANISING and take adultery as A SIN and vice versa for FEMALES here ! come n talk about other peoples modesty , ill be right here waiting , !

I don't womanize . . . Heck, I'm still a virgin . . . technically, anyway . . .
-Tock

[Tock]

if anyone of u here has never committed adultery or fornication fo any kind then i can hear them talk about women in arabian countries coverign their heads n all , and whatever the case ................ but to talk on that level u need to even believe in religion and GOD himself ............... i am just astounded that how stupid our fellow americans are , who fart out opinions when they themselves are standing in much FILTH than the rest of them ! WHEN U ALL STOP WOMANISING and take adultery as A SIN and vice versa for FEMALES here ! come n talk about other peoples modesty , ill be right here waiting , !

I have my own ideas about the way men and women treat each other in both the US and in the middle east, but unless women complain about their lot, I see no reason to intervene. And most middle eastern women I've seen or heard about are pretty well socialized into their customs, and seem to do as well as US women.
Middle east women may have burkas, but here in the US, when ever there's a man and a woman in a pickup truck, the woman seems not to have the option to drive. Ever. So . . . everywhere you go, women endure strange customs. That's another reason why I'm happy to be gay.
-Tock

[CAUSASIAN]

ive seen how supposedly holymen treat women in Afghanistan. women were not allowed to read, education to them was banned and they were treated and flogged like ordinary beasts of burden. Although Afghanistan being the worst case possible example, other muslim nations generally have a culture of degradation and repression towards their women.

Depeneds on what your looking at. I agree women in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and Iran are repressed, and those are cultural, and not relgious. But Islam requires modesty from both women and men. Women have been wearing scarfs and hijabs in the Middle East before the coming of Islam. It is also part of Hebrew and Arab culture.

For example, Mary always wore a scarf or a veil in public. Because in Jewish law a women cannot show her real hair. She either has to wear a wig, or cover her hair.

Womens Rights in Islam

1. The RIGHT and duty to acquire education.

2. The RIGHT to have her own independent property.

3. The RIGHT to work [job or business] to earn money, which she keeps it.

4. The RIGHT to equal reward for equal deed and/or work.

5. The RIGHT to express her opinion.

6. The RIGHT to argue and/or advocate her cause or opinion to be heard.

7. The RIGHT to vote since 1,421 years.

8. The RIGHT to provisions from her husband for all her needs and more.

9. The RIGHT to negotiate marriage terms of her choice.

10.The RIGHT to obtain divorce from her husband, even on the grounds that she simply don't like him. In Islaam divorce is suppose to be last resort.

11.The RIGHT to keep all her own money. [She is not responsible for maintenance of family].

12.The RIGHT to get sexual satisfaction from her husband.

13.The RIGHT to get custody of her children in case of divorce [unless she is unable to raise them for valid reasons]

14.The RIGHT to choose husband of her choice.

15.The RIGHT to refuse a proposed and/or arranged marriage.

16. The RIGHT to re-marry after divorce or after becoming widow.

EXEMPTIONS GIVEN TO WOMEN IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCE.

Women are exempt from:

a.. Fasting when they are pregnant or nursing or menstruating,
b.. Praying when menstruating or bleeding after childbirth,
c.. The obligation to attend congregational prayers in the mosque on Fridays.
d.. They are not obliged to take part as soldiers in the defense of Islam, although they are not forbidden to do so.
But under normal circumstances they are allowed to do all the things that men do.

- Even when they are menstruating, on special days, like the two Eid festivals, they are still allowed to come to the Eid prayers, and menstruating women can take part in most of the actions of the Hajj pilgrimage.

Islamic laws does not requires that women should confine themselves to household duties.

Muslim women have [and are as well] headed Islamic provinces [and states as well], like Arwa bint Ahmad, who served as governor of Yemen under the Fatimid Khalifahs in the late fifth and early sixth century.

Name any other religion, political theory, or philosophy which offers such a comprehensiveness to women by giving her total control of her life and affairs ??? NONE

[rambo]

So yeah. I read militia's reply and I still don't understand how a burka can be taken from the etymology of the word initially used for "head covering." You might make a case for the standard hijab, but the article skirted the issue by dousing itself in serializations.

[BajanBastard]

It's all about opression IMO the burka, women can't leave the house without a male reletive, women can't devorce a man, woman can't drive, all mad cleric crap.

[Spoon]

It's all about opression IMO the burka, women can't leave the house without a male reletive, women can't devorce a man, woman can't drive, all mad cleric crap.

whats even worse is that women are still considered 2nd class citizens and in some islamic countries men can flog and whip their wives in public. youl be surprised that some countries still get away with cruel treatment to women.

[3Vandoo]

Some people needs a leasson.

The veil, whatever you call it, Ninja suit, imperial guards.... Is from a rule in Medina, dued to the facts that the rape level was so high, that Mohamed decreated a law that all women to be veiled. But, for the traditional, everything Mo said is sacred, so if I law was based by him then its gold and should be treated as the same as God said. This wasnt imposed by God, but as a civil rules that was temporary. Now, this tradition continued to the Muslim world as fair, but it is not.

Also, you need to separate the Arabication of Islam and the real message of Islam itself

Also Militia Bob, CAN YOU SAY GOD!!!!! Allah is Arabic for God, and we all have the same God, thats something that pissing me of the Allah word, **** it!

I hate your pic, they are wearing Maroon berets! I have the privilege of wearing one as im a real Maroon Beret holder, not some militia freaks that think the special privileges of wearing one seems cool and nice! Have you jumped from an Airplane?