allready on testosterne therapy

[hootie_ks]

hi guys i need some help i am allready taking testim 50 mg daily for low testoterone levels and am working out three times a week and starting to feel the deference and makeing small gains i have leagal acccess to an exta 100 mg that i could take for 10 weeks at a time and just wondering if the extra would actually do me any good also looking for advise on cycleing for people who allready have to take testosterone is there anything i should be concerend with cant get any doctors i know to even talk to me about it. [B]help please.[/B Respectfully Hootie

[icedudez]

lucky guy,lol.

[oldman]

I am no expert but the only problem I would see is at such a low dose of Test your natural test production is going to stop altogether and you might end up being lower than you were before.

I am on test replacement (HRT) all legal like. I am using 500mg of sust a week and I feel great. My test levels were are 56 so I was practically a woman but 4 weeks into it I am lifting heavier, sleeping better, sex is great.

Oldman

[icedudez]

I am no expert but the only problem I would see is at such a low dose of Test your natural test production is going to stop altogether and you might end up being lower than you were before.

I am on test replacement (HRT) all legal like. I am using 500mg of sust a week and I feel great. My test levels were are 56 so I was practically a woman but 4 weeks into it I am lifting heavier, sleeping better, sex is great.

Oldman

out of curiosity, why would a doctor prescribe so high? 500mg a week? do u do pct on hrt?

[oldman]

One my test levels were so low but I am also on Deca because of several joint injury so my Test has to be higher than my deca or it will effect my test levels again.

Yes you do PCT just like a normal cycle I do HCG mid way and at the end and clomid at the end also. It is a 16 weeks cycle.

I am also using HGH. I am a new man and I feel great!!

Oldman

[Nickster#1]

One my test levels were so low but I am also on Deca because of several joint injury so my Test has to be higher than my deca or it will effect my test levels again.

Yes you do PCT just like a normal cycle I do HCG mid way and at the end and clomid at the end also. It is a 16 weeks cycle.

I am also using HGH. I am a new man and I feel great!!

Oldman

You are full oif shit...there is no way that a doctor in the USA is going to prescribe 500mg of sust ew let alone even 1mg of deca. Not a chance pal....I worked for an endocrinologist for over a year, and the most test I ever saw him prescribe anyone for low levels is 200mg of enanth or cyp every 2 weeks.

[Knight1811]

You are full oif shit...there is no way that a doctor in the USA is going to prescribe 500mg of sust ew let alone even 1mg of deca. Not a chance pal....I worked for an endocrinologist for over a year, and the most test I ever saw him prescribe anyone for low levels is 200mg of enanth or cyp every 2 weeks.

HRT/TRT clinics have gotten wiser and realized that even cyp and Enathate drop off like a fricking rock after 5 days or so....hence the most you will go without injecting is a week...if a longer injection time is utilized then that person will get all kinds of negative effects from the falling levels of test in his system....headaches, depression, memory issues, cranky mood, edgyness, loss of sex drive, loss of appetite, etc etc. I would seriously question an endocrinologist who still assigns injections every two weeks when clearly the test level has dropped so low and then reinject another 200mg to cause a sudden spike...the patient would be on a rollar coaster ride of hormonal hell.

Furthermore, everyone responds differently to test dosages. Just because the most you saw prescribed was 200mg in every two weeks doesn't mean others out there haven't been prescirbed more to elicit a qualitative impact (mood enhance, increase sex drive, appetite, overall sense of well-being, etc) nor does it justify your "liar" remark.

[WannabePro]

One my test levels were so low but I am also on Deca because of several joint injury so my Test has to be higher than my deca or it will effect my test levels again.

Yes you do PCT just like a normal cycle I do HCG mid way and at the end and clomid at the end also. It is a 16 weeks cycle.

I am also using HGH. I am a new man and I feel great!!

Oldman

Do low test levels mean you're sterile?

[oldman]

mranak No worries and thank you for your follow-up I did not understand what your comment was saying. The only reason I come to this board is to try to gain knowledge from other "users". Doctors can run all their theories and tests but until it is used in Real Life situations no one can say how it is going to work or not.

Nickster#1 Fvck You is all i have to say calling me a lair you little piss ant MF! Are you my doctor? Are you an expert?? oh yeah you worked for a doctors, so did you wear a fcking nurses dress you little fvck! you better watch who you call a lair.

The only thing you said that was worth anything and it has nothing to do with anything is Deca IS not a required drug for AAS but if you knew how to properly read you would have seen that I am taking it for several joint issues so the higher split doses of Sust are being used to not only bring up my natural LOW Test levels but also to counteract the lowering effect of the Deca. Since you are the expert I guess this is not correct way to do it I guess I should have my doctor come get some lessons from you since he is only a doctor and all. POS!

WannabePro I am not sure if low test and sterility go hand in hand nor do I know if I am or not. I was not tested for that but my wife cannot have kids anymore so that would not have been a test since it would not matter. But I am sure someone on this board would no if this does effect your sperm count.

Like I noted at the start of this page this was only my opinion and I admit to not being an expert so to people like Nickster#1 that seem to know it all and the rest of us are dumbfcks maybe I will try not to help anymore.

thank you to those that are open and actually want to generally help others.


Oldman

[mranak]

I am on test replacement (HRT) all legal like. I am using 500mg of sust a week and I feel great.

Don't fool yourself; that isn't TRT. Not even close.

[oldman]

Don't fool yourself; that isn't TRT. Not even close.

Yup that what I am trying to do, fool myself,, geez if you have something to say spit it out why bother wasting your time posting if you are going to make nonsense statements.

[powerliftmike]

Yeah what is mranak talking about? Maybe he means that is too high a dosage for normal TRT and you are "fooling yourself" that you need that much when all you want is to gain muscle. Still that is kind of ridiculous and none of anybody's business except you and your doctor.

[oldman]

Yeah what is mranak talking about? Maybe he means that is too high a dosage for normal TRT and you are "fooling yourself" that you need that much when all you want is to gain muscle. Still that is kind of ridiculous and none of anybody's business except you and your doctor.

I am open to ideas but Maybe he is thinking what you say and maybe that is true but the problem is if I go with a lower dose and use Deca for my bad joints my test levels would be lower than they started at I would think.

I am just following the doctors orders so???

I just hate bashers that leave halfass answers and try to make people feel bad.

Thanks

Oldman

[Knight1811]

Still that is kind of ridiculous and none of anybody's business except you and your doctor.

Powerliftmike,

As usual, your post is dead-on target. Great response.

[mranak]

Yup that what I am trying to do, fool myself,, geez if you have something to say spit it out why bother wasting your time posting if you are going to make nonsense statements.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to bash you. Thought what I was saying was obvious.

Legitimate TRT maintains serum testosterone in the 'normal' range. For most guys, this means 100mg of testosterone cypinoate/week, but it can vary from person to person. What matters isn't the dosage, but what the follow-up labwork ways.

Legitimate TRT isn't cycled either. The body strives for regularity. So why would you stop the TRT and go back to feeling like shit again?

Sustanon is also a very poor choice for TRT, unless you are injecting like ED or EOD, and why would you want to do that? Serum testosterone is much more stable with a single long-ester testosterone such as testosterone cypionate or testosterone enanthate.

Deca isn't part of testosterone replacement therapy. Deca does have some legitimate medical uses, but it just isn't TRT; nobody has a deca definciency.

Hope that this clarfies my post. Sorry for not elaborating earlier.

[Blacktip]

Don't fool yourself; that isn't TRT. Not even close.

Dont fool yourself you are not an expert. All post answers by this guy can be found using the google button. He is the biggest parrot on the aas boards. He has low self esteem and answering posts gives his life a sense of being.
Please dismiss his posts and sensless nonsense and read for amusement only.

[JohnnyB]

Dont fool yourself you are not an expert. All post answers by this guy can be found using the google button. He is the biggest parrot on the aas boards. He has low self esteem and answering posts gives his life a sense of being.
Please dismiss his posts and sensless nonsense and read for amusement only.

WOW, it seems your self esteem is even lower, anyone that has to belittle someone, has issues, that need to do with make themselves feel better then others.

If the post needs to be dismissed, why waste board space by posting it. You got your shot in, then want to clean it up by saying that. If you don't like what someone posts, deal with the issue at hand. The way you did it, you made it personal. Which makes your post, off topic and you never proved what he said was right, wrong or indifferent. Remember this is a no flame board, so if you continue to break that rule, you could be banned. Having a disagreement over something isn't flamimg, it's when you make it personal or you attack someone character, that's when the flamimng starts.

So you don't need to warn us about someone, we're big boys we can figure out who's full of B.S. and who's not. You sdon't like someone be the bigger man and don't post anything negitive about them. If you disagree with their advise, show your way and let us figure out which is right or wrong.

Just for the record, what mranak said is true, those doses are cycle doses no matter how you slice it. Any dose that will take you hormone levels higher then normal are not replacement doses. HRT = Hormone Replacement Theropy, "replacement" being the key word

JohnnyB

[freebirdforever]

RE: "testim 50 mg daily for low testoterone"

Going on T-therapy means your own T-production stops, thus, you need to stay on T-replacement permenantly. If your levels are in the 100s or 200s then it's definately worth it [just to be normal again].

The normal T-range is 300 to 1000 and you should know your pre-replacement leval and your stable post-replacement level. You are apparently applying one packet of Testim daily. The recommended dosage is one or two packets daily. If possible, try to get your doctor to move you up to two packets and then have him draw blood to see what your level is. Hopefully, it will be in the middle or upper-middle of the range [~600-800] which would mean you then have the T-level of the average studly 20-something guy.

[JohnnyB]

Don't fool yourself; that isn't TRT. Not even close.

I agree, 500 of test and deca is a cycle, no matter how you slice it. I'm wondering how legal those doses are, the insert for Upjohn cypionate says 100-400mg every 1 to 2 weeks. 200mg every 2 weeks is the standard dose, it can be adjusted from there, but I doubt anyone would need more then 200mg a week for HRT, don't for get it a replacement dose, it's not supposed to send your test levels higher then your normal levels. 500mg a week is going to put at twice as much or more, then add deca, it's a cycle and with your statement that you need more test then deca, I'm going to guess it's at 400mg, again a cycle dose. I'm wondering how legit you Dr. is, not saying he's not a doc, what I'm saying is he is not telling you the truth. You are not on HRT doses.

The medical reasons for using norandrolone, says nothing about joints. http://www.diseasesdatabase.com/umls...serChoice=8791 so if that his excuse for prescribing it, he could be doing it illegally. The definition say it can be prescribed for HRT, but if you're already on 500mg of test, you don't need the deca and if you're on 400mg or so of deca you don't need the test. If your Dr. is selling that to you as a HRT regiment, I wouldn't trust him, because that is far from a HRT dose.

Now if he's doing it as a supervised cycle, watch out, that the DEA dosn't bust him and drag all his patients to court and maybe charge some with the illegal use of anabolic steroids. There will be a paper trail and some day a pharmacist will see those prescriptions and know those are to high, one call to the DEA and that Docs days are over.

There are dr's that will do anything for a buck, which usally includes illeagl prescribing of drugs, that's where the money is, he could have a pharmacist working with him. You'd know that if they say go to this pharmacy only or this guy works with us and know what to do. All Dr's ned records for billing, there's your paper trail

JohnnyB

[oldman]

I agree, 500 of test and deca is a cycle, no matter how you slice it. I'm wondering how legal those doses are, the insert for Upjohn cypionate says 100-400mg every 1 to 2 weeks. 200mg every 2 weeks is the standard dose, it can be adjusted from there, but I doubt anyone would need more then 200mg a week for HRT, don't for get it a replacement dose, it's not supposed to send your test levels higher then your normal levels. 500mg a week is going to put at twice as much or more, then add deca, it's a cycle and with your statement that you need more test then deca, I'm going to guess it's at 400mg, again a cycle dose. I'm wondering how legit you Dr. is, not saying he's not a doc, what I'm saying is he is not telling you the truth. You are not on HRT doses.

The medical reasons for using norandrolone, says nothing about joints. http://www.diseasesdatabase.com/umls...serChoice=8791 so if that his excuse for prescribing it, he could be doing it illegally. The definition say it can be prescribed for HRT, but if you're already on 500mg of test, you don't need the deca and if you're on 400mg or so of deca you don't need the test. If your Dr. is selling that to you as a HRT regiment, I wouldn't trust him, because that is far from a HRT dose.

Now if he's doing it as a supervised cycle, watch out, that the DEA dosn't bust him and drag all his patients to court and maybe charge some with the illegal use of anabolic steroids. There will be a paper trail and some day a pharmacist will see those prescriptions and know those are to high, one call to the DEA and that Docs days are over.

There are dr's that will do anything for a buck, which usally includes illeagl prescribing of drugs, that's where the money is, he could have a pharmacist working with him. You'd know that if they say go to this pharmacy only or this guy works with us and know what to do. All Dr's ned records for billing, there's your paper trail

JohnnyB

Thanks for your input this is good information to know much better than calling someone a liar. The only thing right off that confused me is your statement here
<quote>
if you're on 400mg or so of deca you don't need the test. </quote>

That goes against everything I have ever read anywhere and on this board. First off I am not on 400mg or more of Deca but second that much deca would shut down your Test levels to nothing is that not correct? So in that case why would you say that if someone is doing Deca they do not need Test? I am confused by this because again I read nothing but flames about people coming here and say they are doing Deca only cycles and they get jumped all over saying It will shut you down hard??

Again I am not questions your knowledge since you are a Vet/Mod I suppose you know more than me which is not the question here.

I will bring up this info with my doctor on Monday and see what he has to say about it.

This is exactly what this forum should be about, people bouncing ideas off each other so more is learned from each new post..


Again thanks for the input

Oldman

[JohnnyB]

Thanks for your input this is good information to know much better than calling someone a liar. The only thing right off that confused me is your statement here
<quote>
if you're on 400mg or so of deca you don't need the test. </quote>

That goes against everything I have ever read anywhere and on this board. First off I am not on 400mg or more of Deca but second that much deca would shut down your Test levels to nothing is that not correct? So in that case why would you say that if someone is doing Deca they do not need Test? I am confused by this because again I read nothing but flames about people coming here and say they are doing Deca only cycles and they get jumped all over saying It will shut you down hard??

Again I am not questions your knowledge since you are a Vet/Mod I suppose you know more than me which is not the question here.

I will bring up this info with my doctor on Monday and see what he has to say about it.

This is exactly what this forum should be about, people bouncing ideas off each other so more is learned from each new post..


Again thanks for the input

Oldman

Bro the 400mg or so was a guess, based on your statement of, you needing more test then deca, 500 is more then 400 You are right, it does go against everything you've read, but remember what you read was dealing with cycle doses, not replacement doses. If you read that link I posted, it says deca could be used for HRT or in place of test. Why cause it's being used at replacement doses, not cycle doses and 500mg of test a week is a cycle dose, 300mg of deca is a cycle dose. Replacement doses will shut you down but not the way cycle doses do. Replacement doses don't cause the tsetes to shrivel up like a cycle, becuase it only replacing the test that is lacking. Will replacement doses cause your testes to shrivel up, yes, but not in weeks like a cycle, but over months, even years depending on the size of your dose.

I know a Bro that uses 100mg of deca a week and if I remember right 200mg of test, it might be less, but I can't remember. That's pushing replacement doses, but it closer to replacement then cycle doses, those doses aren't even close to cycling.

I hope that cleared it up for you, if not, ask something else, if I know I'll answer

JohnnyB

[Knight1811]

I agree, 500 of test and deca is a cycle, no matter how you slice it. I'm wondering how legal those doses are, the insert for Upjohn cypionate says 100-400mg every 1 to 2 weeks. 200mg every 2 weeks is the standard dose, it can be adjusted from there, but I doubt anyone would need more then 200mg a week for HRT, don't for get it a replacement dose, it's not supposed to send your test levels higher then your normal levels. 500mg a week is going to put at twice as much or more, then add deca, it's a cycle and with your statement that you need more test then deca, I'm going to guess it's at 400mg, again a cycle dose. I'm wondering how legit you Dr. is, not saying he's not a doc, what I'm saying is he is not telling you the truth. You are not on HRT doses.

The medical reasons for using norandrolone, says nothing about joints. http://www.diseasesdatabase.com/umls...serChoice=8791 so if that his excuse for prescribing it, he could be doing it illegally. The definition say it can be prescribed for HRT, but if you're already on 500mg of test, you don't need the deca and if you're on 400mg or so of deca you don't need the test. If your Dr. is selling that to you as a HRT regiment, I wouldn't trust him, because that is far from a HRT dose.

Now if he's doing it as a supervised cycle, watch out, that the DEA dosn't bust him and drag all his patients to court and maybe charge some with the illegal use of anabolic steroids. There will be a paper trail and some day a pharmacist will see those prescriptions and know those are to high, one call to the DEA and that Docs days are over.

There are dr's that will do anything for a buck, which usally includes illeagl prescribing of drugs, that's where the money is, he could have a pharmacist working with him. You'd know that if they say go to this pharmacy only or this guy works with us and know what to do. All Dr's ned records for billing, there's your paper trail

JohnnyB

JohnnyB,

I've ALWAYS respected your post. STRAIGHT UP....

However, I disagree wholeheardtedly about the "it's not supposed to send your test levels higher then your normal levels." That is a false.

The point of HRT is to get you into the upper levels. Not put you in the normal range...since most folks who seek HRT are already pretty much in normal range. Older folks who have normal test range for their age want to recapture their youthful years (IE Anti-Aging)...hence get the test level up and the HGH level up....PAST the point of what is normal for a 40 year old, a 50 year old, 60 year old or whatever. Anti-Aging efforts are not associate with disease or whatever medical ailment...it is associate strictly with age related decreases in whatever bodily functions, hormones, etc. Hence, not a medical necessity therefore...insurance doesn't cover it.

If a person has real medical necessity like no testes or whatever underlying medical issue then they need to see a specialist in that area and not an HRT doctor.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

[JohnnyB]

JohnnyB,

I've ALWAYS respected your post. STRAIGHT UP....

However, I disagree wholeheardtedly about the "it's not supposed to send your test levels higher then your normal levels." That is a false.

The point of HRT is to get you into the upper levels. Not put you in the normal range...since most folks who seek HRT are already pretty much in normal range. Older folks who have normal test range for their age want to recapture their youthful years (IE Anti-Aging)...hence get the test level up and the HGH level up....PAST the point of what is normal for a 40 year old, a 50 year old, 60 year old or whatever. Anti-Aging efforts are not associate with disease or whatever medical ailment...it is associate strictly with age related decreases in whatever bodily functions, hormones, etc. Hence, not a medical necessity therefore...insurance doesn't cover it.

If a person has real medical necessity like no testes or whatever underlying medical issue then they need to see a specialist in that area and not an HRT doctor.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

You don't have to agree with me and it's okay if it's whole heartedly or half heartedly This is what I know about HRT, it is for those who are below the normal range, some may get it if they are in the low normal range (under 300ng/dl) but it's a stretch. Anyone in the normal range will not get HRT (by a legit Dr)and there ins. will not pay for it, unless there are certain circumstances. The numbers are, 241-827ng/dl (LabCrop) If you're not below the 241ng/dl range, you'll have a hard time getting your ins to pay for it and it's wouldn't be HRT because you're still in the normal range. Some Drs will take you a bit higher then normal, but you won't stay there, like a cycle. The idea for HRT is to keep you in the normal range, before your next injection. I have found that 100mg every week, is better then 200 every 2 weeks, but I feel my dose needs to be raised, which I will discuss with my Dr. I doubt we'll go to 200mg a week.

Just to give you an idea of what gear does, I was using 100mg of prop eod, 3 days after my last shot. I was still at 2300ng/dl, almost 3 times about the high normal range, that was a cycle. HRT is to replace the hormones you lack, it's not to enhance the hormone, that's what a cycle does.

Most people now days or on these boards, think doing 200mg a week is HRT. If you have done a cycle, proper PCT and your hormones stay in the normal range, even if you've never done a cycle or used gear. Not only do you not need HRT, but any added hormone is enhancing the hormones, not replacing, it's just a low dose cycle. There are to many self prescribed, so called HRT users on the boards.

200mg a week for HRT is about the max, but I would think after what my hormones did with 100mg of prop eod. That the build up of cyp would keep you above the high normal range, possibly even before the next injection. Now someone that's been on HRT for year, it may not have the same effect. It may keep them in the normal range, but only a Dr could say after doing blood work.

Bottom line, any dose that will keep you over the normal range is not HRT, not even if a Dr is monitoring you or prescribing the hormones. 500mg of test plus deca fits that criteria, it's a cycle and I'm wondering how legal it is to prescribe that much hormone(s) to anyone. I'm going to guess, if the DEA found out about those doses, that Dr wouldn't be in business much longer. There have been more then one so-called anti-aging clinic shut down, because of their misuse of prescribing hormones and other practices.

If you're in the USA, I wouldn't want to be a patient of a Dr prescribing such doses. With all the crapp congress is trying to pull with major sports organization. These so called anti-aging clinics that prescribe cycle will be next on the list. With some already going down, I'm sure the DEA is wise to what's going on and will look into more of them, to satisfy, the congress' thirst for blood.

This will really get um going, if one of these guys that gets caught, reveals he's using one of these clinics and is under Dr supervision. They'll re-write the laws and it'll be harder to just get HRT for those that need it

JohnnyB

[Nickster#1]

I agree, 500 of test and deca is a cycle, no matter how you slice it. I'm wondering how legal those doses are, the insert for Upjohn cypionate says 100-400mg every 1 to 2 weeks. 200mg every 2 weeks is the standard dose, it can be adjusted from there, but I doubt anyone would need more then 200mg a week for HRT, don't for get it a replacement dose, it's not supposed to send your test levels higher then your normal levels. 500mg a week is going to put at twice as much or more, then add deca, it's a cycle and with your statement that you need more test then deca, I'm going to guess it's at 400mg, again a cycle dose. I'm wondering how legit you Dr. is, not saying he's not a doc, what I'm saying is he is not telling you the truth. You are not on HRT doses.

The medical reasons for using norandrolone, says nothing about joints. http://www.diseasesdatabase.com/umls...serChoice=8791 so if that his excuse for prescribing it, he could be doing it illegally. The definition say it can be prescribed for HRT, but if you're already on 500mg of test, you don't need the deca and if you're on 400mg or so of deca you don't need the test. If your Dr. is selling that to you as a HRT regiment, I wouldn't trust him, because that is far from a HRT dose.

Now if he's doing it as a supervised cycle, watch out, that the DEA dosn't bust him and drag all his patients to court and maybe charge some with the illegal use of anabolic steroids. There will be a paper trail and some day a pharmacist will see those prescriptions and know those are to high, one call to the DEA and that Docs days are over.

There are dr's that will do anything for a buck, which usally includes illeagl prescribing of drugs, that's where the money is, he could have a pharmacist working with him. You'd know that if they say go to this pharmacy only or this guy works with us and know what to do. All Dr's ned records for billing, there's your paper trail

JohnnyB

Thanks Jhonny B for being so eloquent in getting my point across. The liar remark was out of line, my bad and Ill own it. But I still think that you, oldman, are stretching things, alot. I have nothing to prove though. Listen to what Jhonny B is saying...If your doctor is in fact prescribing what you say he is prescribing, then He is way beyond his scope and putting himself in danger of a malpractice suit. Im out....

[WannabePro]

I am no expert but the only problem I would see is at such a low dose of Test your natural test production is going to stop altogether and you might end up being lower than you were before.

I am on test replacement (HRT) all legal like. I am using 500mg of sust a week and I feel great. My test levels were are 56 so I was practically a woman but 4 weeks into it I am lifting heavier, sleeping better, sex is great.

Oldman

Does this make you sterile?

[mranak]

WannabePro: Low testosterone does not mean a man in sterile, nor does appropriate make a man sterile.

Nickster#1: Unfortuantely, there are physicians within the US that care more about making money than they do about patients health.

As for the 2 week injectin schedule, I find that regimen to be improper because it put serum testosterone on a rollercoaster. Unfortuantely, many endocrinologists have been slow to realize that weekly injections are the way to go. I'm not flaming you here, but just thought I wouldn't give my input.

[cb25]

as always...some solid posts by johnny b. don't think it could be said any better.

[mranak]

Knight1811: We must assume that JohnnyB means the normal range (the one that includes men of all ages) as defined by the lab. TRT should aim to bring testosterone into the upper third or quartile of the normal range. That is when the best balance occurs in that most men feel their best and serum testosterone is at healthy levels. Going above the normal range starts to become counterproduct in regards to ones overall and longterm health. It also can no longer be considered a 'replacement' dosage because the serum testosterone levels hit supraphysiological levels.

A big exception to this is those with wasting diseases. That is a totally different situation.

A good TRT physician is qualified to treat both secondary hypogonadism (the balls work, but the body simply isn't regulating enough testosterone) and primary hypogonadism (the body is telling the balls to make testosterone, but they just aren't making enough....or perhaps the balls have been removed).

[Knight1811]

Knight1811: We must assume that JohnnyB means the normal range (the one that includes men of all ages) as defined by the lab. TRT should aim to bring testosterone into the upper third or quartile of the normal range. That is when the best balance occurs in that most men feel their best and serum testosterone is at healthy levels. Going above the normal range starts to become counterproduct in regards to ones overall and longterm health. It also can no longer be considered a 'replacement' dosage because the serum testosterone levels hit supraphysiological levels.

A big exception to this is those with wasting diseases. That is a totally different situation.

A good TRT physician is qualified to treat both secondary hypogonadism (the balls work, but the body simply isn't regulating enough testosterone) and primary hypogonadism (the body is telling the balls to make testosterone, but they just aren't making enough....or perhaps the balls have been removed).

Mranak,

Sounds good but....and numbers are great to use but you forgot one critical element: the subjective input of the patient. If a patient isn't feeling at his best or if his libido isn't where it used to be or whatever then the patient isn't going to be happy with his TRT program. The objective in HRT/TRT is to increase the overall well being of the patient, libido and all that he used to enjoy as a youthful 18, 19 , 20 year old. If he is not getting those benefits with 200mg of test a week then what is to prevent the HRT doc from increasing the dosage? On the flip side, if a patient is feeling the best at only half the normal range for TEST then why increase his test up to the upper normal area?

There is an HRT/TRT doctor, SWALE is his online name. His real name is Dr. John C. I thinik it would behoove many TRT/HRT folks on this site to check his website: www.allthingsmale.com

It has great info and it address a lot of these issues.

[mranak]

Mranak,

Sounds good but....and numbers are great to use but you forgot one critical element: the subjective input of the patient. If a patient isn't feeling at his best or if his libido isn't where it used to be or whatever then the patient isn't going to be happy with his TRT program. The objective in HRT/TRT is to increase the overall well being of the patient, libido and all that he used to enjoy as a youthful 18, 19 , 20 year old. If he is not getting those benefits with 200mg of test a week then what is to prevent the HRT doc from increasing the dosage? On the flip side, if a patient is feeling the best at only half the normal range for TEST then why increase his test up to the upper normal area?

There is an HRT/TRT doctor, SWALE is his online name. His real name is Dr. John C. I thinik it would behoove many TRT/HRT folks on this site to check his website: www.allthingsmale.com

It has great info and it address a lot of these issues.

I agree that is the patient feels great when their serum testosterone is at the middle of the normal range, then why increase it futher.

But the top of the normal range is a practical healty limit for tuning up testosterone. And it is important to pay attention to factors such as estrogens. If estrogens are too high or too low, then that can be the cause of low testosterone symptoms as well.

SWALE, or Dr. John Crisler, that you mention is in my opinion \one of or perhaps the world's best TRT physicians. He has had tremendous success in getting his patients to feel well while limiting testoserone to the top of the normal range. If the person doesn't feel right at the top of the normal range, then the cause of their problems is not low testosterone, or at least not _just_ low testosterone.

[ranran]

Knight, agreed my friend....it is a life long committment...not to be taken lightly.

And as I stated previously, I am fortunate because of the relationship that my family has enjoyed with my physician for many years. He is highly acclaimed, and is very well respected by those in the medical field here in south. Louisiana.

He has been at the fore-front of learning and incorporating the latest treatments and procedures in science that are considered to be the cutting edge of medicine by those in his field.

Ran