Very worrying

[Kärnfysikern]

I didnt think I would ever se this kind of anti progress nonsense in europe. Especialy not from germany of all countries!! What the hell has hapened to that nation that used to lead the way in science and technology. Its disgusting.


http://www.the-scientist.com/news/display/23252/

http://www.euractiv.com/en/science/m...article-144641

http://www.catholicregister.org/modu...6&page_id=2015

whats next? are we gonna stop building telescopes because cosmology might not go hand in hand with christianity? Will funding be cut short to biology because theory of evolution doesnt agree with the bible?
I wonder what those morons oposed to stem cell research realy think. Dont they realise how many lifes that could be saved? Or the possibilities of extending our lifespan ect?

[RA]

Even if your not a Christian you should not be for killing babies.

[Kärnfysikern]

Even if your not a Christian you should not be for killing babies.

uhm and what has that got to do with stem cell research

[Mizfit]

Even if your not a Christian you should not be for killing babies.

Just a question, but all these unwanted children that you do not feel women have the right toa bort - are you going to be adopting all these unwanted children?

Will they become wards of the state, then one day grow up to be nuisances to society because thry had no real guidance in thier youths and grew up in a wolrd where they were unwanted and unloved.

[Teabagger]

Just a question, but all these unwanted children that you do not feel women have the right toa bort - are you going to be adopting all these unwanted children?

Will they become wards of the state, then one day grow up to be nuisances to society because thry had no real guidance in thier youths and grew up in a wolrd where they were unwanted and unloved.

Why should I, or anyone else take responsibilty for any woman's irresponsiblilty. If you don't want kids thats cool...don't get pregnent...its that simple. No one wants to be responsible for their actions...like dead beat dads, or the idiot who leaves a bar drunk, gets in his car, and has an accident...it not his fault...its the bar that sold him the booze fault....someone shoots another person...it's not his fault...its the gun manufacturer, and on and on. It's all about making good decisions and taking responsibility for the bad ones you make. With all "rights" come responsibilities. This debate will not be solved here...pro abortion will stay pro abortion, and anti abortion will stay anti abortion, but in this day and age there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for anyone to have an unwanted pregancy...none. Abortion today is nothing more than birth control, something it was never intended to address.

[biglouie250]

Why should I, or anyone else take responsibilty for any woman's irresponsiblilty. If you don't want kids thats cool...don't get pregnent...its that simple. No one wants to be responsible for their actions...like dead beat dads, or the idiot who leaves a bar drunk, gets in his car, and has an accident...it not his fault...its the bar that sold him the booze fault....someone shoots another person...it's not his fault...its the gun manufacturer, and on and on. It's all about making good decisions and taking responsibility for the bad ones you make. With all "rights" come responsibilities. This debate will not be solved here...pro abortion will stay pro abortion, and anti abortion will stay anti abortion, but in this day and age there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for anyone to have an unwanted pregancy...none. Abortion today is nothing more than birth control, something it was never intended to address.

and what about rape victims........ is that the womans fault as well?

and what about dead beat dads? that child that was created by 2 people is the sole responsibility of the mother? people make mistakes and we as a society love to give 2nd, 3rd and 4th chances.......

[Kärnfysikern]

Why should I, or anyone else take responsibilty for any woman's irresponsiblilty. If you don't want kids thats cool...don't get pregnent...its that simple. No one wants to be responsible for their actions...like dead beat dads, or the idiot who leaves a bar drunk, gets in his car, and has an accident...it not his fault...its the bar that sold him the booze fault....someone shoots another person...it's not his fault...its the gun manufacturer, and on and on. It's all about making good decisions and taking responsibility for the bad ones you make. With all "rights" come responsibilities. This debate will not be solved here...pro abortion will stay pro abortion, and anti abortion will stay anti abortion, but in this day and age there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for anyone to have an unwanted pregancy...none. Abortion today is nothing more than birth control, something it was never intended to address.

well there is always those cases where both the male and girl is responsible but shit happens. My sister got knocked up when she was on birth controll. They keept the baby though and think its the best thing that could happen to them. But no birth controll is 100%.

I look at abortion as a neccesary evil. Ban it and women will start doing it themself with coathangers and shit again.

[RA]

well there is always those cases where both the male and girl is responsible but shit happens. My sister got knocked up when she was on birth controll. They keept the baby though and think its the best thing that could happen to them. But no birth controll is 100%.

I look at abortion as a neccesary evil. Ban it and women will start doing it themself with coathangers and shit again.

lol. Urban myth.

[Phreak101]

Why should I, or anyone else take responsibilty for any woman's irresponsiblilty. If you don't want kids thats cool...don't get pregnent...its that simple. No one wants to be responsible for their actions...like dead beat dads, or the idiot who leaves a bar drunk, gets in his car, and has an accident...it not his fault...its the bar that sold him the booze fault....someone shoots another person...it's not his fault...its the gun manufacturer, and on and on. It's all about making good decisions and taking responsibility for the bad ones you make. With all "rights" come responsibilities. This debate will not be solved here...pro abortion will stay pro abortion, and anti abortion will stay anti abortion, but in this day and age there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for anyone to have an unwanted pregancy...none. Abortion today is nothing more than birth control, something it was never intended to address.

In a perfect world, sure. There would be no unwanted pregnancies, no cancer, no AIDS, no war, etc. But that's not going to happen anytime soon. For now, the fact of the matter is who's rights are more important, the woman's or the unborn childs? In order to have a civilized society, the potential for abortion MUST exist, or it will lead to dangerous back alley abortions, uneducated decisions, suppressed human rights, and general anxiety and fear of having an unwanted pregnancy.

Look at steroids! If it wasn't for this board, who knows what kind of ****ed up my rats would be. But because I have knowledgeable sources, I feel safe about my decisions. Women have doctors they can consult because abortion is legal. Again, it's sad that an unborn child will never get to experience life, but what are you going to do?

[RA]

Just a question, but all these unwanted children that you do not feel women have the right toa bort - are you going to be adopting all these unwanted children?

Will they become wards of the state, then one day grow up to be nuisances to society because thry had no real guidance in thier youths and grew up in a wolrd where they were unwanted and unloved.

Theres a huge waiting list for babies. No need to worry.

[RA]

You get stem cells from an aborted fetus.

[Kärnfysikern]

You get stem cells from an aborted fetus.

or from the umbilical cord blod or from adults and other sources. Banning all stem cell research because one way of getting stem cells might be wrong is stupid.

If someone is getting a abortion anyway I dont se the fuss about using those cells either.

[RA]

If someone is getting a abortion anyway I dont se the fuss about using those cells either.

Killing a baby, then harvesting its stem cells like some kind of vulture. It doesnt even sound human.

[Kärnfysikern]

Killing a baby, then harvesting its stem cells like some kind of vulture. It doesnt even sound human.

If the parent is going to get a abortion either way. Does it do anymore harm to put those cells to good use? I dont se the logic behind that. The embryo is gonna die either way.

[RA]

If the parent is going to get a abortion either way. Does it do anymore harm to put those cells to good use? I dont se the logic behind that. The embryo is gonna die either way.

Like I said. Its not human to be so heartless over an innocent human life. No way I would ever support it.

[Mizfit]

Killing a baby, then harvesting its stem cells like some kind of vulture. It doesnt even sound human.

It's no one's choice, except for the person having the procedure.

and Johan is right - this type of research is beneficial in so many ways.

[Teabagger]

It's no one's choice, except for the person having the procedure.

and Johan is right - this type of research is beneficial in so many ways.

That's pure hogwash. Choice...BS. Neither you or any other woman, has the right to choose to end a life. Abortion is the largest stain on humanity in the history of the world. Karma is real.

[RA]

It's no one's choice, except for the person having the procedure.

and Johan is right - this type of research is beneficial in so many ways.

The person having the procedure cant talk yet.

[Teabagger]

Morally and ethically it is no different than the blackmarket for human organs. Innocents are kidnapped, the organs harvested, and sold. Of course the donor is dead...but you could argue this donor's life was not in the end sustainable due to poverty, or was of such a low quality of life that the donor is better off dead, and his death prolonged the life of a "productive" important human. hmmm, kind of indicates little respect for life, huh? Hmm, kinda like the argument for human "embryo" research...the fetus could not sustain life outside the womb...it may, in rare instances, have some congenitive abnormalities that would not allow it to live a "happy, fruitful" life...hmmm...some of the same arguments and rationale used by the illustrious Dr. Joseph Mengele...the unworthy have to be sacrificed for the good of people, and advancement of knowledge...

Medical science has in fact determined "life" begins pretty much at conception, so the question you have to ask yourself then is, when does life become valuable? And what does "valuable" mean?

[Kärnfysikern]

Morally and ethically it is no different than the blackmarket for human organs. Innocents are kidnapped, the organs harvested, and sold. Of course the donor is dead...but you could argue this donor's life was not in the end sustainable due to poverty, or was of such a low quality of life that the donor is better off dead, and his death prolonged the life of a "productive" important human. hmmm, kind of indicates little respect for life, huh? Hmm, kinda like the argument for human "embryo" research...the fetus could not sustain life outside the womb...it may, in rare instances, have some congenitive abnormalities that would not allow it to live a "happy, fruitful" life...hmmm...some of the same arguments and rationale used by the illustrious Dr. Joseph Mengele...the unworthy have to be sacrificed for the good of people, and advancement of knowledge...

Medical science has in fact determined "life" begins pretty much at conception, so the question you have to ask yourself then is, when does life become valuable? And what does "valuable" mean?

did you read what I wrote that its possible to get the stem cells from adults

imo a bunch of cells doesnt make a human. But like I wrote earlier that isnt the topic since stem cells can be taken from other sources.

[biglouie250]

Medical science has in fact determined "life" begins pretty much at conception, so the question you have to ask yourself then is, when does life become valuable? And what does "valuable" mean?

the scientific definition of life refutes this as a the conceived cells can not carry out all life processes to be deemed alive.

[Teabagger]

the scientific definition of life refutes this as a the conceived cells can not carry out all life processes to be deemed alive.

Not so biglouie...the medical definition of life, or death, is electrical brain activity...that occures days after conception. The functioning of other organs are not a prerequiste to the definition of life.

Johan I am not opposed at all to "adult" stem cell research, and actually support it...

[Kärnfysikern]

Not so biglouie...the medical definition of life, or death, is electrical brain activity...that occures days after conception. The functioning of other organs are not a prerequiste to the definition of life.

How can there be brain activity before there is a brain?? After 5 days the embryo is still just a bunch of cells without organs.

Johan I am not opposed at all to "adult" stem cell research, and actually support it...

Glad to hear that to bad that most people cant separate and paint all stem cell research as shit. The church should alteast point out that they are against one specific kind of stem cell research and not all kinds. Or maby they are opposed to all kinds of stem cell research??

[Phreak101]

Not so biglouie...the medical definition of life, or death, is electrical brain activity...that occures days after conception. The functioning of other organs are not a prerequiste to the definition of life.

This is incorrect. The medical definition of life with reagrds to someone who is ALREADY LIVING is brain activity, the medical definiton of life for pre-natal is being able to be self-sufficient in terms of basic life activity without assistance, ie breathing, eating, etc.

[RA]

the scientific definition of life refutes this as a the conceived cells can not carry out all life processes to be deemed alive.

So because it cant take a dump yet its not alive? You could say a baby doesnt have the means to take care of itself when first born therefore its not alive.

[Tock]

Medical science has in fact determined "life" begins pretty much at conception, so the question you have to ask yourself then is, when does life become valuable? And what does "valuable" mean?

Boy golly, I dunno what medical research you're citing here, but there isn't ANY science that has established that "souls" enter an embryo anytime during or after conception. None.
You'd think that over the past jillion thousand years, with all the people motivated to find even one, that someone somewhere would have figured out a way to prove that humans and/or animals have 'em. But no one has. Ever.

At conception, a sperm cell mates with an egg, and then all sorts of things internal to the cell take place, none of which are shrouded in mystery. Thanks to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertilisation
you can check out how things actually work:
All mammals rely on internal fertilisation through copulation. To deliver the sperm to the female, the male inserts his sexual organ, the penis, into the opening of the vagina, the passage into the female's other sexual organs. (This process is a part of copulation.) Once the male ejaculates, a large number of sperm cells swim toward the ovum.

The capacitated spermatozoon and the oocyte meet and interact in the ampulla of the fallopian tube. In mammals, binding of the spermatozoon to the zona pellucida, an extracellular layer surrounding the oocyte, initiates the acrosome reaction. This process releases the enzyme hyaluronidase, which digests the matrix of hyaluronic acid in the vestments surrounding the oocyte. Fusion between the sperm and oocyte plasma membranes follows, allowing the entry of the sperm nucleus, mitochondria, centriole and flagellum into the oocyte. Once the ovum fuses with a single sperm cell, its cell membrane changes, preventing fusion with other sperm.

This process ultimately leads to the formation of a diploid cell called a zygote. When the embryo reaches the uterus and implants in the endometrium, it begins to divide and form an embryo. At this point the female is said to be pregnant. If the embryo emplants in the fallopian tubes, rather than in the uterus, an ectopic pregnancy results, which can be fatal to the mother.

In some animals (e.g. rabbit) the act of coitus induces ovulation by stimulating release of the pituitary hormone gonadotropin. This greatly increases the probability that coitus will result in pregnancy.

If fertilisation takes place, the sperm usually meet the ovum in the fallopian tube, requiring the sperm cells to swim from the upper vagina through the cervix and across the length of the uterus before reaching the fallopian tube—a considerable distance compared to the size of the sperm cell.


So, all you've really got at conception is a fertillized egg. Is the end result "valuable?" Some people say so. But if you look at all the neglected, abused, hungry, homeless, helpless children around the world, I don't think you could say so.

-Tock

[Tock]

You get stem cells from an aborted fetus.

Heterosexuals go to fertility clinics for help with reproduction problems, and they frequently pay to have several eggs fertilized with sperm, and then they pay to have them frozen for future use. So right now, there are jiliions upon jillions of frozen embryos all across the country waiting to be thawed and "hatched." Only problem is, though, that the parents usually have many more eggs fertilized with sperm than they expect they'll want to use. So, unless someone comes along and volunteers to carry the embryo to full term, all those extra embryos are going to be disposed of, one way or another.

The parents could drive up to the clinic and pick up the frozen eggs, take 'em home, and bury 'em, or put 'em in the trash. Or, scientists could use the embryos to find cure for diseases.

Right now, foreign nations are proceeding full speed in an effort to find disease cures with stem cells from these embryos. The United States, thanks to fundamentalist Christians, is not. So, unless things change, the USA is going to fall behind in medical science. We'll be behind the Koreans, Chinese, Europeans, etc. And then we'll have something else we can import from overseas -- medicine.


It's up to Americans if they want to put up with this nonsense.

-Tock

[RA]

Heterosexuals go to fertility clinics for help with reproduction problems, and they frequently pay to have several eggs fertilized with sperm, and then they pay to have them frozen for future use. So right now, there are jiliions upon jillions of frozen embryos all across the country waiting to be thawed and "hatched." Only problem is, though, that the parents usually have many more eggs fertilized with sperm than they expect they'll want to use. So, unless someone comes along and volunteers to carry the embryo to full term, all those extra embryos are going to be disposed of, one way or another.

The parents could drive up to the clinic and pick up the frozen eggs, take 'em home, and bury 'em, or put 'em in the trash. Or, scientists could use the embryos to find cure for diseases.

Right now, foreign nations are proceeding full speed in an effort to find disease cures with stem cells from these embryos. The United States, thanks to fundamentalist Christians, is not. So, unless things change, the USA is going to fall behind in medical science. We'll be behind the Koreans, Chinese, Europeans, etc. And then we'll have something else we can import from overseas -- medicine.


It's up to Americans if they want to put up with this nonsense.

-Tock

What your saying is laughable. Were going to be behind everyone in medical science because we lag in harvesting embryonic stem cells? Cmon tock this is horse poo.

[Tock]

What your saying is laughable. Were going to be behind everyone in medical science because we lag in harvesting embryonic stem cells? Cmon tock this is horse poo.

No, we won't be behind everyone else in the sciences because of this one thing.
We will, however, end up behind everyone else in this major science because of the dogmatic Christian fundamentalists. And if they have their way, we'll lag behind other nations in other sciences because Christian fundamentalism is anti-science in other fields as well.

-Tock

[RA]

No, we won't be behind everyone else in the sciences because of this one thing.
We will, however, end up behind everyone else in this major science because of the dogmatic Christian fundamentalists. And if they have their way, we'll lag behind other nations in other sciences because Christian fundamentalism is anti-science in other fields as well.

-Tock

People like you have done a pretty good PR job demonizing religion. They have deeply held beliefs so they are not supposed to fight for them?

[Kärnfysikern]

Not to mention the embryonic stem cells are taken form the embryo when the embryo is 5 days old. Its not a human its a bunch of cells with human dna. Its no more human than a piece of my skin.

But that isnt relevant since there is other ways to get ahold of the stem cells.

[RA]

Not to mention the embryonic stem cells are taken form the embryo when the embryo is 5 days old. Its not a human its a bunch of cells with human dna. Its no more human than a piece of my skin.

But that isnt relevant since there is other ways to get ahold of the stem cells.

Of course there is. But, where do you think the abortion advocates are going to place thier support and money?

[Kärnfysikern]

Of course there is. But, where do you think the abortion advocates are going to place thier support and money?

so you propose that all stem cell research should be banned, sacrificing countless lifes in the future because of the cures that wont be developed and limiting our scientific progress because some pro abortion people might push for embryonic stem cell research?

[RA]

so you propose that all stem cell research should be banned, sacrificing countless lifes in the future because of the cures that wont be developed and limiting our scientific progress because some pro abortion people might push for embryonic stem cell research?

No, see above.

[Superhuman]

so you propose that all stem cell research should be banned, sacrificing countless lifes in the future because of the cures that wont be developed and limiting our scientific progress because some pro abortion people might push for embryonic stem cell research?

if you believe in evolution and "surival of the fittest" then who the **** are we to save these people's lives? They are obviously weaker and are meant to die. We are interfering with nature by using this science. Pure hypocracy

[The OutLord]

if you believe in evolution and "surival of the fittest" then who the **** are we to save these people's lives? They are obviously weaker and are meant to die. We are interfering with nature by using this science. Pure hypocracy

Even for the survive IN WAR?
What do you have for proposition ???

wheelchair for life when He save you arse when you are at home on a ordinary day at work!!!!

That is good for you!!!

That is good with divine.

ther is much of views of things!!

**************************
BUT
one thing I agree with.. !!
god:s way is inscrutable
**************************

[Kärnfysikern]

if you believe in evolution and "surival of the fittest" then who the **** are we to save these people's lives? They are obviously weaker and are meant to die. We are interfering with nature by using this science. Pure hypocracy

hypocracy? So every biologist in the world, every doc and every other sane person that belive in evolution should let people die because they are weak?

I cant even begin to comprehend the logic behind your post. Just because evolution is a fact doesnt mean we should not help our fellow man. We are advanced enough to evolve on our own terms.

[biglouie250]

if you believe in evolution and "surival of the fittest" then who the **** are we to save these people's lives? They are obviously weaker and are meant to die. We are interfering with nature by using this science. Pure hypocracy

cmon!! a fall from 10 feet on your head is going to paralyze if not kill anyone, its not a matter of survival of the fittest.

the real hyposcrisy is that according to the bible god gave man free will to have the ability to do such things but we shouldnt do them.........

[Phreak101]

if you believe in evolution and "surival of the fittest" then who the **** are we to save these people's lives? They are obviously weaker and are meant to die. We are interfering with nature by using this science. Pure hypocracy

Morality seperates us from the animals. Having morals allows humanity to bypass natural laws of evolution by being able to examine a situation and make a decision based on that situation.

Looping "survival of the fittest" because some people are worse off than others is not hypocrisy at all, if anything, it is using what makes us human to ensure the survival of our species.

Poor logic here, I'm inclined to agree.

[Kärnfysikern]

I dont want to get into a discussion wheter a featus is a human or not. My point is that there are other ways to get ahold of stem cells and banning stem cell research doesnt make any sense because of those other options.

I dont understand how religious people can be opposed to ALL stem cell research. Embryonic stem cell research yes. But not all stem cell research. It must be because of ignorance.