Low Testosterone Question

[ja993]

Hey guys
I wanted to get your opinion of my low testosterone situation. I went to see a doctor for a low sex drive/low energy problem I've been having. My testosterone level was 99 (lowest my doctor, a urologist, has seen). He prescribed Androgel and I've been taking it for two weeks. To date, I haven't noticed any improvement in my sex drive or energy levels (as the doctor had anticipated). I'd like to change to the test injections but my doctor seemed hesitant when I initially suggested it. Someone on the board recently suggested complaining about the Adrogel causing a rash in order to change to injections. My questions are: 1) Are the injections much more effective than the Androgel; 2) What is the best way to convince the doctor to switch to injections; 3) Do the injections have to be performed at the doctor's office or can a patient be prescribed the test and take the shots at home?

Thanks for any help
Jim

[ironmaster]

That's a bad test #, for sure! You can shop for another doctor....but most will not prescribe enough to get the job done, no matter if it's injections or gel. For example, let's say you are producing naturally the equivalent of 100mg. a week, which is below normal. A doc puts you on 200mg. weekly injections (standard). The injects shut down your production of 100mg. Are you really gaining anything? Not much.
The system pretty much forces us older guys to turn to the black market if we are not satisfied to be on the low end of the testosterone curve.
My doc Rx'ed me for test cyp and deca at 200mg a week each, and GH. This takes care of some of my needs, but by no means all. And you will have a hard time finding a doc that will go that far......and most want you to come to the office for the shots. Androgel never did shit for me, by the way.
How old are you, btw? Are you looking to make muscles, or just recover libido and energy?

[ja993]

Ironmaster.
Thanks for the reply. I'm 38 yo and more muscle would be great. My doctor has said that he was looking for higher than the low-normal range but I'm not expecting much. I didn't realize that the weekly injections caused your body to stop producing its own test. The black market isn't really an option for me since I could lose my career over it. I do have a business acquaintance who is a doctor (DO) and would probably prescribe what I need but he doesn't have any knowledge of this subject. Did the injections given by your doctor help at all?

Thanks for the help.
Jim

[JohnnyB]

Here's what I did when I talked with my Doctor. I told that I had heard negitive things about the gel, that the injection didn't bother my and if I had to do this for the rest of my life an injection once a week or once every two weeks would be a lot easier then rubbing gel on everyday. I also metioned that if my insurance wouldn't pay for it the injection would be cheaper, so he gave me a scrip for both, the gel and test cyp, with a, "don't use both OK", he through in some viagra to help sex drive. I've only used 3 of them, but I've recovered some of my sex drive, so havn't had to use anymore.

I'm in the adjusting stage of my treatment, to see what dose will work best. I'm going in for an MRI, to check for a tumor, if there's not one we'll go from there on my dose and what would be the best treatment for me. Hope this helps.

JohnnyB

[skid]

my doctor put me on Androgel and told me not to expect much of a change for 4-6 weeks ... two weeks may simply not be long enough to tell ...

incidently, I've been on the gel for maybe 4 months now but haven't been satisfied with the results - my dr wants to try a patch next ... if that doesn't work, it's on to shots, which must be delivered by the nurse at his office

[ironmaster]

The 200mg. each of test and deca injected is far superior to the gel. You just have to go doctor shopping. Try endocrinologists.

[resco]

Hello,

I too was prescribed androgel (10 mg day) for low testosterone. It didn't do the job. I suggested to doc that he try testostereone injections and he agreeed. He would inject me with 200 mg, every two weeks, not enough, but that was all he would prescribe. Since then, I getting gear from another doctor and injecting it myself. First injection was "scary", but now I have no problem.

Hope this helps.

Resco

[JohnnyB]

I just got a call from the Doc's office, my test is at 245, they said they would like to see it at the 500 level. This is after one injection, so we'll see what happens.

Hey ironmaster what's the deca prescribed for?

JohnnyB

[plow-horse]

I just went through this 2 months ago. You want the test injection stand your ground on getting what you need to get your levels where they should be. Have him check levels to be sure if they are not right make him adjust till they are. I found the doctors know very little about this so you do the research and show him what is best. I got him to let me do my own shots at home. I am getting 200mg EOW to start and it seams to be a little low so I will ask for 300 next time I go to his office. Do your homework and be prepared when you go and stand your ground he works for you.

I was lucky to find some help on this at the start or I be walking around with patches on me now wounding why it wasn’t working.

[resco]

Hello Plowhorse,
I agree with you. Most docs know very little about as, but some are willing to learn. As I said earlier, I still use 1 doc for the androgel, since it does help a little, and another doc for the injectibles. I am an older bodybuilder, over 70, so it is a little easier for me to get "gear".

Resco

[plow-horse]

If it is OK to ask resco did you ever do gear before this and at what age did you start with the doctors. Over 70 and still bangin I hope to do the same.

[ironmaster]

hypogonadism, johnnyb. This doc knows my game.....I stand out a little bit. We don't discuss it. He just is cool about it, within reason.
I get all the testing done that he wants. But I'm an old man, so I don't get questioned about it like a younger man would.
If you wish to try for an Rx, go in after a steroid cycle and before your HPTA is recovered. The doc will run for his Rx pad when he sees those ultra-low numbers. And his ass is covered, cause the file demonstrates the need.

[resco]

Hello Plowhorse,

I had never used "gear" until this year. For the past several years I was either on Androgel or getting testosterone injections, all by my Doc due to low testosterone. I have been working out, off and on, for over 10 years, but never too seriously. Checking into forums such as this aroused my curiousity and since I wanted to be a serious, if older, bodybuilder, I decided to try "gear". IT has been a very positive experience, so far, for me. No side effects but I keep Nolvadex on hand and take .5 Arimidex every other day and HCG at the 20% point in my cycle and at the 80% point.

Since I started from such a low base of testosterone, and am older, the dramatic results I have experienced might not work for a younger bodybuilder.

Resco

[skid]

Geezes! This damn patch is HUGE! I thought maybe it would be like a nicorette patch, not the size of a margerine tub lid!

and I thought Androgel was a PITA ... even if I make it through a whole month on these things, I'm still going for the shots next ... I'd much rather visit the doc every few weeks than put up with this sh*t!

why didn't anyone warn me? LOL

[ja993]

Thanks everyone for your help. After taking another blood test (havent recv'd the results yet) I'm going to see my doctor this week and will let him know that the Androgel and the patches are not for me. I found this quote from the Mayo Clinic and will bring documentation from the Mayo Clinic's site stating that injections are perfectly acceptable and that a prescription can be givenhttp://www.mayoclinic.com/findinform...9257#Treatment)

"Intramuscular testosterone injections are safe and effective. Injections are given approximately every 2 weeks. You may experience fluctuations in symptom relief between doses. You or a family member can learn to administer this method of TRT at home. If you are uncomfortable doing this, a nurse or doctor can give the injection."

I'll let you know how it turns out. Thanks again for the help!
Jim

[TNT]

Originally posted by ja993
I found this quote from the Mayo Clinic . . . "Intramuscular testosterone injections are safe and effective. Injections are given approximately every 2 weeks . . ."

The norm is actually to iject every week these days - injecting every two weeks creates too much of a peak-and-valley effect for injectable testosterone. This effect creates a rush for the first couple of days after a test injection, then symptoms of fatigue, lethargia, and/or loss of libido before the next shot.

For documentation, download the Adobe/PDF file on Hypogonadism from the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists - this is the same set of guidelines used by physicians for treating low test levels, and they suggest weekly injections to avoid the peak-and-valley effect. Most endocrinologists will start you on two-week injections, see how your levels fare, then move toward weekly injections.

The Mayo guidelines are good, but they are written for lay people. The AACE guidelines are what doctors use, and will provide a better background than almost anything else out there.

[plow-horse]

This is what I had when I went to the doctor made him a copy to read and said if you find something you don't like we will talk about it. Had no problem with him after that.

[ja993]

Thanks for everything guys - especially TNT who provided the guidelines for HRT. Well, I went to the doctor today and my Test. level shot up to nearly 900 (was 99 one month before). The doctor believes that the 5% Androgel caused this substantial rise but from what I have read on the subject, it is improbably that this small dosage of Adrogel would cause such a substantial rise. Also, I haven't noticed ANY signs (increased sex drive, energy levels, etc) which would lead me to believe that my Test. levels have increased so substantially. More likely, I would suspect that one of my two blood tests was inaccurate. I was near the end on a very strict diet at the time of the first blood test (lost about 32 lbs which drastically reduced my body fat to the point at which I even have vascularity in my lower stomach [Tanita scale shows 3.5-5% body fat). This is the only thing I can think of that could possibly have influenced the blood test result.

So, the possibilities are:

1) 5% Androgel caused the increase in one month from 99 to nearly 900;
2) First or second blood test was wrong;
3)Diet caused the low Test. levels; or
4) A combination of the above.

The doctor suggested I stop all treatment for 5 weeks and then have Test. levels checked again. He didn't feel the diet could have been the cause for the low levels. Any ideas or reference material would be appreciated.

Thanks
Jim

[plow-horse]

Your body needs fat to make test i belive so that might be it.

[ja993]

plow-horse

Actually, my body fat level was lower at the time of the second blood test (near 900 Test. levels). During the time of my first blood test (99 Test. level), I was on a very strict diet though (2200 calories). After the first blood test, and to this date, I've been consuming about 3000 calories (still less than my BMR).

Thanks for the input.
Jim

[El Kabong]

I just started 1% androgel (25mg) three weeks ago and f**k, is my sex drive back ! :-) I was at the low end of normal, 350 or so, with almost no libido.

Now my strength is up, my workouts are more intense and my mood has improved. Roaring hungry at times, but I've been watching what I eat very carefully for a few months now, so I don't seem to be bloating up.

I like this ;-) Wish I had done it long ago.

[dtdionne]

hey guys, great thread, heres my story:

32 years old
5'7"
160lbs
7%bf (on my way down to 4% for a portfolio, i have a "in a galaxy far, far away" dream of getting a little photo in a mens health or mens fitness mag)

Feb of this year got down to about 5% bf and my sex drive vanished. I had no idea why so i went to the doc and he said that my test levels were low 210 and put me on androgel. Mind you, at this time i had no clue about test or steroids. The androgel gave me a rash so he put me on 1cc cyp a week. I did this for about 7 weeks and durring that time had crazy gains in strenght and weight, i was at about 155 lbs and at the end of the 7th week i was at 175, but i was REALLY bloated. I also had no change in my sex drive and had no agression. Got another blood test at the end of the 7th week....1300!!! The doc kinda freaked, asked if i felt ok, if i was agressive or had too much "wood" and i told him no cause i didnt, i would have to say that i had zero mental changes, no superman complex. So he took me off, i told him that i had been reading about this and that i would need nolva and clomid if i came off to stop gyno and see if my test would kick in...he said no way, to many hormones, so i said k. 3 weeks after last shot i got a blood test and my weight went from 176 to 165 but my strenght didnt fall off much at all. 4th week after last shot (last week) down to 160 and my strength started to fall off a little. This mon, test results....173!!! he freaked again, asked me if i felt ok which i did, i felt fine no depression or anything, sohe said that we need to do 1cc every other week, so i got a shot wed. I really want to see if my natural test still works so i was thinking about doing the 1cc eow for like 6 weeks then comming off correctly with novla, hgc, l-dex, clen and clomid. What do you guys do for water retention? I hate how it makes me look cause im really lean and cut. I was going to run a-dex or l-dex the entire time. Also i just started taking water pills today, anyone try that?

btw, i have also successfully been on propecia for 3 years and rogain for 6.

[Lynn]

I don't understand something.. i have had my test levels monitored constantly while off and on cycle... mine before my first cycle was 26 !!!! do they measure it differently here in canada vs the US. Must be.. i have no idea what the value means.. just norm was between 25 and 80. By the way about 5 weeks after my cycle.. i had been taking 10mg of dbol every morning to up my test levels.. and they came back at 100 which as i say is high by the way canada measures things.

[dtdionne]

Lynn, i think that is your free test number, not the overall number.

[Sicilian30]

I have a doc here that seems very eagar to give me hormones, however, I haven't hit that level yet. I went to see him for my gyno problems and the first thing he asked me was my sex drive okay? I said yes, why, he said, "Because we give hormones here". I got alittle "warm and fuzzy inside" wondering if I should of said, "Yeah doc, I can't keep it up". But oh well, when I run into that problem I may go back to him later, and hopefully I will have some legit reason to do hormones.

[Trouble]

Hey guys
I wanted to get your opinion of my low testosterone situation. I went to see a doctor for a low sex drive/low energy problem I've been having. My testosterone level was 99 (lowest my doctor, a urologist, has seen). He prescribed Androgel and I've been taking it for two weeks. To date, I haven't noticed any improvement in my sex drive or energy levels (as the doctor had anticipated). I'd like to change to the test injections but my doctor seemed hesitant when I initially suggested it. Someone on the board recently suggested complaining about the Adrogel causing a rash in order to change to injections. My questions are: 1) Are the injections much more effective than the Androgel; 2) What is the best way to convince the doctor to switch to injections; 3) Do the injections have to be performed at the doctor's office or can a patient be prescribed the test and take the shots at home?

Thanks for any help
Jim

Jim my doctor was hesitant about injection as well. But I have a toddler who I hold all the time so the Gel wasn't really an option. Its been about 8mo now, I'm at 1ml every 10 days of Test Cyp. And from the first week I noticed the difference. Today I'm feeling like my old self....almost.. But the then to now is such a huge difference. I can't tell you how thankful I am for these treatments!! I'd tell your doctor you and your old lady are trying to have a baby! The way it was explained to me was the injections are suppose to be more effective in this area. Also you can express the difference in dosing schedules. Daily applications to weekly. And heck I'd rub some posin ivy on my application areas.....lol and say its making you break out...lol
Sorry if this was already asked just pressed for time and wanted to comment, Have you had a recent blood test. Maybe the dosage he has you on isn't enough. Years ago I was put on Testin or something like that, but it was a gel i had to rub on my arms and shoulders and legs. I did 1 tube a day for about two months but couldn't afford it anymore. I'm not sure if I didn't take it long enough or what, but the injections are far better IMO.... Good luck!
PS. All those side effects you mentioned plus lack of memory.... a sexually frustrated wife...lol All gone!! Well the wifes still here, just smiling a lot more... as I...