T3 or T4

[carter]

After reading up on the two, they seem to be almost the exact same hormone? What are the differences between the two? I gues my real question is which one is better than the other, meaning which one is more effectivie whn trying to burn muscle. I noticed at ar-r that only t3 is offered? Is T3 prefered?

[perfectbeast2001]

you want to burn muscle????? Well t3 will do that if used without AS. It is also a good fat burner. t3 is the stronger of the 2. They are both thyroid hormones, http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=199887
gives an explanation of the difference.

[carter]

you want to burn muscle????? Well t3 will do that if used without AS. It is also a good fat burner. t3 is the stronger of the 2. They are both thyroid hormones, http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=199887
gives an explanation of the difference.

LOL, no i meant fat... I'll be running my second cycle in Jan. and i'm considering using one of these thyroid therapies incorporated with clenbuterol during PCT. I've read and heard that either hormone will burn both muscle and fat if not using AAS, especially if the diet is not perfect, but i'm hoping to REAALLY focus on my diet post cycle.

I will delve into that link you included and i really appreciate the help. I'll be back with some ????? i'm sure..

[perfectbeast2001]

aha that makes more sense!! Wouldn't run any thyroid hormone during PCT as they will just add to the catabolism. Add it to the cycle instead or use alternative fat loss drugs in PCT (clen,ECA,DNP not all at once though!)

[carter]

*HIJACKING MY OWN THREAD*

Hey beast, i noticed in your workout log that you've ran IGF-1. Would this be a preferred method to maybe help maintain my "anabolic" state during PCT?

[perfectbeast2001]

*HIJACKING MY OWN THREAD*

Hey beast, i noticed in your workout log that you've ran IGF-1. Would this be a preferred method to maybe help maintain my "anabolic" state during PCT?

yes I found it great for PCT. Many others have also used it in PCT with good results.

[cfiler]

Don't run it through PCT.

During a cycle is fine. You would want to take it while "on" otherwise you may be loosing muscle with it.

[carter]

Don't run it through PCT.

During a cycle is fine. You would want to take it while "on" otherwise you may be loosing muscle with it.

thanks cfiler, that's what i'll most likely do. The last thing i wnat is to fight from added catabolism during PCT. In fact, i may just stick to clen for PCT and not run t3 during this next cycle. After readinig the link provided, T3 would seem to be preferred though. Thanks for the help guys

[*Narkissos*]

Don't run it through PCT.

During a cycle is fine. You would want to take it while "on" otherwise you may be loosing muscle with it.

I run t4 during pct.

think about 'why' guys run clen during pct.

[*Narkissos*]

which one is better than the other, meaning which one is more effectivie whn trying to burn muscle. I noticed at ar-r that only t3 is offered? Is T3 prefered?

Others will differ.. but i don't think the two are comparable... as 'better' is relative to the state of application.

I use t4 with preference.

I've used t3 with success.. but i find it to depletive.

T4 i like because i can boost my BMR while still maintaining a 'full' look to my musculature.

t3 is directly metabolically active.. while t4 requires specific metabolic/dietary conditions to be effective.

The limiting factor for the latter compound is the body's ability to convert t4 to t3 tru the enzyme deiodinase... 'Limiting factor' because low kcal dieting causes a deactivation of this enzyme.. limiting the conversion of t4 to t3 as the body attempts to stunt metabolic output.

I don't cut on below maintenance kcals anymore tho so i personally don't experience this cessation.

Thus my preference for the latter compound.

Also.. i think t4 supplementation activates a number of other pathways which t3 administration does not.

Narkissos

[*Narkissos*]

Others will differ.. but i don't think the two are comparable... as 'better' is relative to the state of application.

I use t4 with preference.

I've used t3 with success.. but i find it to depletive.

T4 i like because i can boost my BMR while still maintaining a 'full' look to my musculature.

t3 is directly metabolically active.. while t4 requires specific metabolic/dietary conditions to be effective.

The limiting factor for the latter compound is the body's ability to convert t4 to t3 tru the enzyme deiodinase... 'Limiting factor' because low kcal dieting causes a deactivation of this enzyme.. limiting the conversion of t4 to t3 as the body attempts to stunt metabolic output.

I don't cut on below maintenance kcals anymore tho so i personally don't experience this cessation.

Thus my preference for the latter compound.

Also.. i think t4 supplementation activates a number of other pathways which t3 administration does not.

Narkissos

Regardless of the compound chosen from the above... a boatload of research is needed before you undertake supplementation with any.

I see so many on the boards reach for these compounds indiscriminately...

If you're a casual lifter.. as opposed to a competitive athlete, i think you should stay away from them personally.

Nark

[Property of Steroid.com]

If you're a casual lifter.. as opposed to a competitive athlete, i think you should stay away from them personally.

Nark

Philosophically, I tended to feel the same way, in the past. I suppose it comes from being a competitive athlete and placing my goals as being of intrinsically more worth than someone elses casual goals of looking good at the beach.

After working with literally dozens of clients, I no longer feel that way.

I have a client in California who just wants to look good and be strong, and his goals and dedication to them are of no less value to him as (for example) my goal of winning a championship or making an all star team. I worked with Ms. New Jersey, and can't really say that the trophy she now has is of any higher worth than someone's self-image or self worth, relative to them.

The girl who won the Ms. New Jersey was more thrilled to qualify for nationals (figure) than another friend of mine was when she turned pro (fitness). And who's to say that the fat kid who used some thyroid meds, clen, aas, whatever...and now gets more ass than a toilet seat isn't even MORE thrilled at achieving his own goals than the two girls I just mentioned? In the end, even if you're competing, it's still recreational...and on a relative scale of importance to the individual, no less important than....you know, whatever someone elses goals are.

I understand your point of view, and previously thought the same way, but on further examination (I have a degree in philosophy, and I suppose I overthink things), I have a revised position.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent.

[Jay-Ace]

Philosophically, I tended to feel the same way, in the past. I suppose it comes from being a competitive athlete and placing my goals as being of intrinsically more worth than someone elses casual goals of looking good at the beach.

After working with literally dozens of clients, I no longer feel that way.

I have a client in California who just wants to look good and be strong, and his goals and dedication to them are of no less value to him as (for example) my goal of winning a championship or making an all star team. I worked with Ms. New Jersey, and can't really say that the trophy she now has is of any higher worth than someone's self-image or self worth, relative to them.

The girl who won the Ms. New Jersey was more thrilled to qualify for nationals (figure) than another friend of mine was when she turned pro (fitness). And who's to say that the fat kid who used some thyroid meds, clen, aas, whatever...and now gets more ass than a toilet seat isn't even MORE thrilled at achieving his own goals than the two girls I just mentioned? In the end, even if you're competing, it's still recreational...and on a relative scale of importance to the individual, no less important than....you know, whatever someone elses goals are.

I understand your point of view, and previously thought the same way, but on further examination (I have a degree in philosophy, and I suppose I overthink things), I have a revised position.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent.

What does this actually say??

It's over engineered and TBH fairly non-sensical.

Anthony please elaborate....

[Property of Steroid.com]

What does this actually say??

It's over engineered and TBH fairly non-sensical.

Anthony please elaborate....

If it's over-engineered and I elaborate, then wouldn't it be "over-over-engineered"?

Yeah Anthony has a positive view on AAS for those who dont compete which is great because he can really justify use rather well.

I can justify basically all of my vices just as well...I think that's where having a degree in philosophy really pays off...

[*Narkissos*]

Regardless of the compound chosen from the above... a boatload of research is needed before you undertake supplementation with any.

I see so many on the boards reach for these compounds indiscriminately...

If you're a casual lifter.. as opposed to a competitive athlete, i think you should stay away from them personally.

Nark

Let me extrapolate...

..or elaborate rather... (before the verbal gremlins frown on the poetic liberty in the use (or misuse) of 'extrapolate' ...As the aforementioned would suggest my opinion to be akin to 'known fact')

/end verbose disclaimer.

To expand... on the abovementioned 'competitive athlete'.. it is my belief that such a moniker (generalised pseudonym) encompasses the actual fitness athlete.. and those that make a living from their bodies.

I think if the after conducting a cost-to-benefit analysis (or rather a risk analysis)... and the risk/cost is deemed acceptable, the application of the compound(s) is viable.

The problem with the casual user is that he/she seldom assesses the potential risks.

It has become the normative state that if one wants to acheive 'x'-condition ('X' being the ultimate/ideal), that one should just casually pick up a bottle of t3 and clen and go for it.

Personally i don't think the use of any of the above compounds is safe.. thus, in my humble opinion... the use by the casual enthusiast is not justifiable.

Trophies: plastic pieces of shit, as alluded to by A. Roberts, are irrelevant to this argument.

Narkissos

[Jay-Ace]

Let me extrapolate...

..or elaborate rather... (before the verbal gremlins frown on the poetic liberty in the use (or misuse) of 'extrapolate' ...As the aforementioned would suggest my opinion to be akin to 'known fact')

/end verbose disclaimer.

To expand... on the abovementioned 'competitive athlete'.. it is my belief that such a moniker (generalised pseudonym) encompasses the actual fitness athlete.. and those that make a living from their bodies.

I think if the after conducting a cost-to-benefit analysis (or rather a risk) analysis... and the risk/cost is deemed acceptable, the application of the compound(s) is viable.

The problem with the casual user is that he/she seldom assesses the potential risks.

It has become the normative state that if one wants to acheive 'x'-condition ('X' being the ultimate/ideal), that one should just casually pick up a bottle of t3 and clen and go for it.

Personally i don't think the use of any of the above compounds is safe.. thus, in my humble opinion... the use by the casual enthusiast is not justifiable.

Trophies: plastic pieces of shit, as alluded to by A. Roberts, are irrelevant to this argument.

Narkissos

Yup, I think the problem is that many people do not know HOW to assess the potential risks!!

A risk assessment cannot be carried with a post or two in a public forum.

[*Narkissos*]

Yup, I think the problem is that many people do not know HOW to assess the potential risks!!

True.

This is because most people choose the shortest route between their current state and their desired state.

Anxillary reading is one such 'skipped step'...

I believe the analogy is: "the shortest route between 'a' and 'b' is a straight line".

However... human development, though linear, does not follow a straight line.

Rather, in science, development processes are quantified with reference to 'curves'.

e.g. the growth curve; the development curve, etc.

Thus is is beyond me why people skip the essential steps...

Actually.. it isn't beyond me.

The actuality is that skipping steps falls inline with that deemed normal and accepted by today's global societal normative values: the "i want it now" phenomenom.

A risk assessment cannot be carried with a post or two in a public forum.

Fact.

Narkissos

[marcus300]

Let me extrapolate...

..or elaborate rather... (before the verbal gremlins frown on the poetic liberty in the use (or misuse) of 'extrapolate' ...As the aforementioned would suggest my opinion to be akin to 'known fact')

/end verbose disclaimer.

To expand... on the abovementioned 'competitive athlete'.. it is my belief that such a moniker (generalised pseudonym) encompasses the actual fitness athlete.. and those that make a living from their bodies.

I think if the after conducting a cost-to-benefit analysis (or rather a risk analysis)... and the risk/cost is deemed acceptable, the application of the compound(s) is viable.

The problem with the casual user is that he/she seldom assesses the potential risks.

It has become the normative state that if one wants to acheive 'x'-condition ('X' being the ultimate/ideal), that one should just casually pick up a bottle of t3 and clen and go for it.

Personally i don't think the use of any of the above compounds is safe.. thus, in my humble opinion... the use by the casual enthusiast is not justifiable.
Trophies: plastic pieces of shit, as alluded to by A. Roberts, are irrelevant to this argument.

Narkissos

very true nark

[Property of Steroid.com]

Let me extrapolate...

..or elaborate rather... (before the verbal gremlins frown on the poetic liberty in the use (or misuse) of 'extrapolate' ...As the aforementioned would suggest my opinion to be akin to 'known fact')

/end verbose disclaimer.

To expand... on the abovementioned 'competitive athlete'.. it is my belief that such a moniker (generalised pseudonym) encompasses the actual fitness athlete.. and those that make a living from their bodies.

I think if the after conducting a cost-to-benefit analysis (or rather a risk) analysis... and the risk/cost is deemed acceptable, the application of the compound(s) is viable.

The problem with the casual user is that he/she seldom assesses the potential risks.

It has become the normative state that if one wants to acheive 'x'-condition ('X' being the ultimate/ideal), that one should just casually pick up a bottle of t3 and clen and go for it.

Personally i don't think the use of any of the above compounds is safe.. thus, in my humble opinion... the use by the casual enthusiast is not justifiable.

Trophies: plastic pieces of shit, as alluded to by A. Roberts, are irrelevant to this argument.

Narkissos

Then, to avoid further and unwanted mistakes on my part, I would add that (perhaps?) you ought have said "Professional" rather than "competitive" ...many people compete without being professional...

But I understand the hesitance to use that word (professional) also...here's why:

Interestingly, though...in the world of physique competitions, "Professional" doesn't mean that one earns income from one's actual physique, nor income related to anything of the like. It simply means you have met certain criteria to compete at a particular level (above the national level). That's always been a strange one for me to understand...how someone can claim to be a "Professional" when they don't earn direct income from what they claim to be a professional at....

Example: My friend who is a professional fitness competitor now has to pay $200/year for her pro-card instead of $70/year for her NPC card. So her turning professional was a net gain of NEGATIVE $130. She also has to pay more to enter shows.

In many ways, I am similarly entitled to be called a professional beer drinker...I pay to do it, and to do so legally, I also needed a card (drivers licence).

I do think that the argument that people should follow risk/reward based judgements, and if you thusly define casual use as one who uses something without that analysis, and in spite of that analysis coming out poorly, then yes, that's bad.

However, you've simply substituted "money" for "piece of shit trophy" in that counterargument, and I still find my original argument to stand as being the better of the two.

Here's why: The acquisition of a good body has no less objective value than money. It may even, in many cases, have far less subjective value.

In that case, it doesn't entitle you to the "right" to use more/different drugs to achieve the goal of earning money. A good body may indeed make you happier than money. I find that the for your argument to have merit, there must be more quantifiable objective value in money over a nice physique, and I don't feel that to be a justifiable position.

In the relegating of trophies to being irrelevant, you relegate most of your argument to irrelevance. You substituted material gain (in the form of money) for material gain (in the form of a trophy), which doesn't strengthen your argument at all. Most of the people I know who have trophies for physique competitions paid thousands for contest prep, and in the cases of the women, thousands again for their suits.

In the end, if happiness is the ultimate goal (identified as the only thing with inherant value), then indeed the piece of shit trophy and what it symbolizes is worth far more than the money (in the eyes of most competitors, it is....they lose thousands in their prep costs). And if happiness is the goal, then why is the acquisition of money through drugs more noble or give more entitlement to drugs than the acquisition of having a nice body, which arguably brings at least as much (if not more) happiness?

[*Narkissos*]

Hooker you antagonistic bastard...

You can be eloquent when you choose to be... I'm starting to like you again

I miss having people who force me to think outside the base parameters.

Most threads here now just require the regurgitation of info.. with minimal support from new research.

That being said...

I do think that the argument that people should follow risk/reward based judgements, and if you thusly define casual use as one who uses something without that analysis, and in spite of that analysis coming out poorly, then yes, that's bad.

No immediate argument here.

However, you've simply substituted "money" for "piece of shit trophy" in that counterargument, and I still find my original argument to stand as being the better of the two.

I do however disagree with your original argument. The insertion of money as a justifiable cause is not the basis of the argument.. it is solely a non-inflammatory example (whereas the statement: "plastic piece of shit"... represents the extreme opposite )

The basis of the argument is applicable 'justifiable cause' and that deemed acceptable risk.. v.s. the non-consideration of risk factors (etc.) in casual use..

An argument supported by your previously quoted statements.

Here's why: The acquisition of a good body has no less objective value than money. It may even, in many cases, have far less subjective value.

That i do disagree with as well... as 'good body' is too generalised.

I somehow do not buy into the train of thought that equates 'good body' with health.

Further.. the casual use of the above compounds negates the generalised category that the casual user would fall under: "health enthusiast"... as the use of the above compounds outside that deemed medically applicable, is not 'healthy'.

In that case, it doesn't entitle you to the "right" to use more/different drugs to achieve the goal of earning money. A good body may indeed make you happier than money. I find that the for your argument to have merit, there must be more quantifiable objective value in money over a nice physique, and I don't feel that to be a justifiable position.

True.. but when that which precipitates the achievement of the aforementioned 'good body' pre-empts the degredation of health is the risk acceptable?

This is the base of the arguement: Finding and alloting 'acceptable risk'.

For most that consider it.. there is no acceptable risk.

And again alluding to the opening argument.. the limitation therein is that most simply do not consider the risk factors.

re: casual use.

In the relegating of trophies to being irrelevant, you relegate most of your argument to irrelevance.

I disagree.

As 'trophy', is just a material substitution.

Again.. the argument is 'justifiable cause'.

You substituted material gain (in the form of money) for material gain (in the form of a trophy), which doesn't strengthen your argument at all.

Far from weakening the argument... it strengthens it.

Think about it.

Supporting one's family through the money earned from one's physique may be one's justifiable cause.

Yes even your trophy may be deemed by another as justifiable cause.

What you have not seemed to realise is that i removed 'trophy' because you correlated it with the statement 'plastic piece of shit'.. which i found inflammatory.

Justifiable cause is relative to the immediate individual.

The base argument: that which i'm not circumventing, is that the 'casual user' does not take the steps to establish 'risk'; to classify 'risk'; and further, to justify 'risk'.

Narkissos

[perfectbeast2001]

^interesting stuff Nark^

[silverback300lbs]

well said

[SVTMuscle*]

well said

Yeah Anthony has a positive view on AAS for those who dont compete which is great because he can really justify use rather well.



I prefere T4 over T3 frankly because I hear it is alot easier to rebound from t4 oppose to t3, although there is really no rebound at all anyways, but I guess im just paranoid about long term thyroid damage

[Snrf]

I get it

[Hackamaniac]

The verbal assasin, is in the building

[LivingItUp]

your body turns t4 into t3...

[perfectbeast2001]

my brain hurts..

[Snrf]

Whoever came up with that "test kills brain cells" study should sit in one of of Narks and Anthony's arguments....

[mousetraps]

chief wiggum: if it feels good, i say do it.

[*Narkissos*]

[*Narkissos*]

On this note however i've gotta jet.. I had a final exam this moring so i haven't had sleep in a couple days.... Got another in the morning.

So imma go take a nap and get back up to study.

Was a pleasure to debate with you hooker.

Narkissos

[carter]

Let me thank Nark and Hooker for their indispensable knowledge and input You've both successfully made my brain REAALY hurt. Despite the deep throbbing, i've decided to not supplement T3 during my PCT for three reasons.

Reason #1:

Nark really brought it home with this one:

Regardless of the compound chosen from the above... a boatload of research is needed before you undertake supplementation with any.

I see so many on the boards reach for these compounds indiscriminately...

If you're a casual lifter.. as opposed to a competitive athlete, i think you should stay away from them personally.

Nark

I agree that research is the key. This is why i've waited until the ripe old age of 25 before using AAS. I think also that there is quite a bit of grey between a "casual lifter" and a "competitive athlete" and that I am somewhere in the middle. Either way, research and education is the first and most important thing where ever you are on the spectrum. Anyway, the point is, i need to do more research on T3/T4 before i use them.

Reason #2

I've been reading the profile on cytomel. (Thanks, hooker, very well written and straight forward) With what i've been reading up on so far, the hormones seem quite unique, especially T3. Very interesting stuff. But at the same time, i can def see the importance of AAS while running it. Enrgy needs to come from somewhere, and with your body needing to meet the demands that T3 or T4 are putting on it, the energy resource can quickly change from fat to muscle.

Reason #3

My brain still hurts, i can't think of reason #3 right now.. I just got done with finals and the last thing i want is for my brain to hurt. There needs to be a disclaimer on this thread.

[*Narkissos*]

^^

Good stuff bro.

[Jay-Ace]

Starting to regret baiting this 1!!

[taylor26]

Starting to regret baiting this 1!!

Wow... I'd like to wish you and the girl in your avatar a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS, if that girl is someone you know, then I'm sure you will.......

but i regress..

My brain hurts too, but i must say i've had great results with T3/clen... While i wouldn't likely run only T3 during PCT, running it along side clen really works well for me!

[lifterjaydawg]

Good thread carter, Great information.