Scary thought about "Soy Milk"

[Dezeroth]

well today i was having a short discussion at the gym with some guy about women and how they gain muscle and how men do as well

Men have much more test as oppose to women, with woman actually having more estrogen in there bodies to well of course, to fufill there womenly qualities :-P

but then he said if a guy were to have estrogen it would have a totally opposite effect opposed to woman actually favoring them. Then he said yea, like drinking soy milk can give guys estrogen

when he said that my heart dropped !!! Whats this about Soy milk and estrogen for men?!?!? i drink alot of soy milk (light vanilla) because it has a great amount of protein, low fat, low carb as compared to lowfat or skim milk. But if what the guy said is in fact true, im never touching it again!!

can someone please help me in this sensitive issue for me? thanks alot in advance !!

[novastepp]

do you have any reason to be afraid of estrogen? honestly, why does it scare you?

[Dezeroth]

doesnt estrogen cause gyno? girl chest? so on and so forth?

and btw, r u implying that he is telling the truth?!

[Mooker]

I have also heard that soy milk raises estrogen levels in men. Actually heard from my AAS supplier. Very reputable source. But would like to see some evidence that supports it

[Dezeroth]

oh noooooooooooooooooooo :'(

[FortKnox36]

As of late, it seems that I have been getting more and more questions about soy protein and my reasons for suggesting that athletes, and especially male athletes, avoid it like a bad blind date. I would like to offer some insights to this evil...

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Soy Protein Sucks!
By: Author L Rea

Though most know me for my books, columns and articles on AAS (Anabolic Androgenic Steroids), over the past several years I have written on supplements extensively as well. After all, chemistry is chemistry whether it is food, steroids, training or water. One either understands this or fails to realize the potential of knowledge that will advance training results.

As of late, it seems that I have been getting more and more questions about soy protein and my reasons for suggesting that athletes, and especially male athletes, avoid it like a bad blind date. As such, I would like to offer some broader insights upon this evil substance. In truth, with the exception of post-menopausal women, there just is no valid reason to suggest that the evils of soy food or protein use out weight the benefits.


What Is Soy?


Soy comes from soybeans. They grow in those fuzzy green pods we sometimes see in the grocery store masquerading as a vegetable. They come in other colors but for the most part are sort of a yellow/tan color with a single black eye.

At one time the Asian soybean plants were grown to be used as a replacement for manure thus used to cover crops and intended to be plowed into the soil for nutrient enrichment. Yup, it was fertilizer. Naturally, like anything else in life, there is always someone who could not leave $#!^ alone.

Sometime during the Chiang Dynasty, the Chinese decided to ferment the fuzzy beans and human consumption began from such as soy sauce and miso. Naturally tofu followed soon thereafter.

Later in the West, the soybean was used predominantly for soy oil. Big deal? Soy oil is used to make shortening, margarine and many vegetable oils.

After the soy oil extraction process has been completed there is a great deal of soy protein left over. For many years this was used solely to feed animals, poultry and even fish. The only problem is that there is a limit as to how much soy protein can be used to replace other feeds before the animals develop major health problems including reproductive.

Currently soy is used as a meat substitute and in many food products as well. Oh, and many pet foods are dependant upon soy as a protein source. Oddly enough many who swear they never eat soy products find they consume them daily in processed foods...once they take a look.


Soy Is A Health Food?




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For the past two decades, low fat, low cholesterol is the mantra of those trying to lose weight, prevent cancer and avoid heart disease. In light of recent studies however, this view is outdated.

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Around the mid-70's the soy industry employed top marketing firms to convince the poor and middle class people of most countries that soy was not just $#!^ but really a health food. The idea was to dispel the fact that it was just a cheap calorie source for animals as well.

The United Soybean Board (USB) has spent millions of dollars to lobby aggressively in Washington (The Capital of The United States) and medical research. In fact they spent over a million dollars on establishing the FDA's (Food and Drug Administration) questionable stand that soy lowers cholesterol.

Additionally the USB has romanced writers, editors, dietitians, chefs and about every processed food manufacturer for favorable words in the behalf of soy. Needless to say, the strategy has been nothing less than genius. Soy can now be found in almost 65% of the food goods sold in grocery stores.


Why Does Soy Suck?


Soy products contain:

Phytoestrogens: (isoflavones) genistein and daidzein, which mimic and sometimes block the hormone estrogen
Phytates: which block the body's uptake of minerals
Enzyme Inhibitors: which hinder protein digestion
Haemaggluttin: which causes red blood cells to clump together and inhibits oxygen take-up and growth.

Pesticides


Further more, most soybeans are grown on farms that use toxic pesticides and herbicides, and many are from genetically engineered plants. When you consider that two-thirds of all manufactured food products contain some form of soy, it becomes clear just how many Americans are consuming products, whose long-term effects are completely unknown.


Emasculation And Fat Deposits?


Perhaps the most disturbing of soy's ill effects on health has to do with its phytoestrogens that can mimic the effects of the female hormone estrogen. These phytoestrogens have been found to have adverse effects on various human tissues, and drinking even two glasses of soy milk daily for one month has enough of the chemical to alter a woman's menstrual cycle.

The FDA regulates estrogen-containing products, however no warnings exist on soy. Two senior toxicologists with the FDA. Daniel Sheehan and Daniel Doerge, have even come out saying "The public will be put at potential risk from soy isoflavones in soy protein isolate without adequate warning and information."

Soy is particularly problematic for infants, and soy infant formulas should be avoided. Why? Based on figures from the Swiss Federal Health Service, it has been estimated that infants who are fed soy formula exclusively receive five birth control pills worth of estrogen every day.

The studies that supposedly prove that infants on soy formula develop normally consider only height, weight and other measurements of growth as measured in infancy and early childhood. Many of the negative effects don't become obvious until puberty. Think about that next time you walk through the locker room at the gym.

Pediatricians are reporting more and more cases of emasculated boys reaching puberty with breasts and tiny penises. Undescended testicles are also far more common than they were in the past.




Sorry bro...might want to cut out that soy milk....This was from body building . c o m

[novastepp]

doesnt estrogen cause gyno? girl chest? so on and so forth?

and btw, r u implying that he is telling the truth?!

i'm implying that there isn't any real proof that it causes harm. kind of like saying all the growth hormone they put in that chicken you're eating the breast from. it isn't going to give you boobs if that's what you're saying. plus as Nark pointed out, the amount it would take to do that would almost have to be injected. i love soy.

[facile]

i'm implying that there isn't any real proof that it causes harm. kind of like saying all the growth hormone they put in that chicken you're eating the breast from. it isn't going to give you boobs if that's what you're saying. plus as Nark pointed out, the amount it would take to do that would almost have to be injected. i love soy.

From what I have read Nova and Narc have the right info, there isn't any real data to support that soy raises estrogen to levels to experience negative side effects. I have friends that have used soy every day for years and besides the dresses they are completely normal.

[Narkissos]

From what I have read Nova and Narc have the right info, there isn't any real data to support that soy raises estrogen to levels to experience negative side effects. I have friends that have used soy every day for years and besides the dresses they are completely normal.

lmao

[C_Bino]

The article from bodybuilding.com is grossly over exagerated. There is nothing wrong with soy. Its a shame that not all public has access to pubmed articles. That is where you should be reading if you want real information. Not other forums.

Soy can have potential side effects, and so can most other foods.

I especially love this part...

The studies that supposedly prove that infants on soy formula develop normally consider only height, weight and other measurements of growth as measured in infancy and early childhood. Many of the negative effects don't become obvious until puberty. Think about that next time you walk through the locker room at the gym.

The studies only consider growth measurements? What studies is this person looking at? I did ONE search on pubmed and on the first page there was a study about hormone levels in infants. It also went on to prove that the study had one group on soy based foods and 2 groups on non-soy and there was no difference in ANY hormonal levels. So no raise in estrogen and no decrease in test.

I am not saying it doesnt raise estrogen, I have seen too much conflicting data to really know. But everyone should do themselves a favour and stop searching google when they want actual scientific answers.

I mean people have been eating soy for a long time and I dont see any people growing tits from it.

[Narkissos]

Soy is not a risk.

It'd take 10+ servings of non-alcohol-washed soy protein (each supplying 125mg of phytoestrogens) to put any healthy male in the 'high-consumption' bracket.

If anything, males are at higher risk from milk and milk-based products.

Milk is taken from lactating cows.

Lactation is female-hormone mediated.

And... the cows supplying milk for public consumption are administered hormones to increase and regulate the milk supply.

Subsequently, milk is a high-estrogen product.

Estrogen.. Not phytoestrogens.

Keep that in mind when you're chugging your skim.

-CNS



p.s.

My latest soy article:

An Argument for the Viability of Soy as a primary protein source

By Narkissos

[Narkissos]

My latest soy article:

An Argument for the Viability of Soy as a primary protein source

By Narkissos

If the posting of this isn't allowed.. feel free to remove

-CNS

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

Soy is not a risk.

It'd take 10+ servings of non-alcohol-washed soy protein (each supplying 125mg of phytoestrogens) to put any healthy male in the 'high-consumption' bracket.

If anything, males are at higher risk from milk and milk-based products.

Milk is taken from lactating cows.

Lactation is female-hormone mediated.

And... the cows supplying milk for public consumption are administered hormones to increase and regulate the milk supply.

Subsequently, milk is a high-estrogen product.

Estrogen.. Not phytoestrogens.

Keep that in mind when you're chugging your skim.

-CNS



p.s.

My latest soy article:

An Argument for the Viability of Soy as a primary protein source

By Narkissos

If thats the case, wouldn't all breast fed boys be at risk of something?

[Narkissos]

If thats the case, wouldn't all breast fed boys be at risk of something?

At risk of what?

1. Human milk and cow's milk aren't the same.

2. Human's don't breast feed for their entire life.

We're the only animal species which continue to emulate breast-feeding after weaning takes place.

-CNS

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

At risk of what?

1. Human milk and cow's milk aren't the same.

2. Human's don't breast feed for their entire life.

We're the only animal species which continue to emulate breast-feeding after weaning takes place.

-CNS

lol I know Narkster.

Just jerkn' yr "tit"....haha

Great thread.

[Narkissos]

By the way... Soy is my sole supplemental protein source.

I consume between 50gr and 150gr of soy protein per day.

-CNS

[Coop77]

I think I've read that soy protein has a "less complete" amino acid profile, compared to animal protein sources, and that's why you don't generally see it in bodybuilding supplements.

[Narkissos]

^^Soy is complete.

It's methionine and cysteine amounts are lower.

This does not alter its complete status.

-CNS

[Dezeroth]

^^Soy is complete.

It's methionine and cysteine amounts are lower.

This does not alter its complete status.

-CNS

great reply, thanks!

[naturalsux]

i ve been drinking a couple gallons of chocolate soy milk every week for probably almost a year. without any problems.

[C_Bino]

^^Soy is complete.

It's methionine and cysteine amounts are lower.

This does not alter its complete status.

-CNS

Right on, soy is definitely complete just sulfur based amino's are lower. BUT I will say that biological value of soy is lower compared with cow milk.

Nark do you know the value for soy...84 or something?

Also I have supplemented with soy protein. When they make soy isolate they take out the inherent protease inhibitors and even add more methionine sometimes. Perfectly good protein source to use.

But I also like to get my milk from Webb's utters.

[Narkissos]

Right on, soy is definitely complete just sulfur based amino's are lower. BUT I will say that biological value of soy is lower compared with cow milk.

Nark do you know the value for soy...84 or something?

Lower than cow's milk.. but not 'low'

I forgot to include these arguments in my last article... but i may include them in my following article(s) (or the re-release of this article).

Soy proteins of times past have been cheap gunk...no getting around that.

Protein powders period have come a long way.

According to the Benamouzig et. al. study of 1999 however, soy's bioavailability is 92% that of milk protein.[1]

Which basically charts it as lower.. but far from 'low'.

Something else associated with soy protein is claims of poor assimilation.

In this study however:

Oro-ileal digestibility of SPI nitrogen was 91%. The amount of absorbed SPI amino acids used for nonoxidative disposal, i.e., postprandial biological value, was 86% 8 h after meal ingestion. Hence, net postprandial protein utilization of SPI was 78%. Compared to previous data that were assessed under the same condition in humans, the nutritional value of SPI is 92% of that in milk protein concentrate.

Thus, i do not believe digestibility is an issue.

I myself get less issues with soy than i get with whey...

This applies even to whey deemed 'lactose-free'.

-CNS



References:

1. Benamouzig et. al. Nutritional Value of [15N]-Soy Protein Isolate Assessed from Ileal Digestibility and Postprandial Protein Utilization in Humans. Journal of Nutrition. 1999;129:1992-1997.

[Coop77]

^^Soy is complete.

It's methionine and cysteine amounts are lower.

This does not alter its complete status.

-CNS

This is data I found on some webpage. Maybe the difference is insignificant, but whey seems to have a better profile.

Amino Acid Soy Protein Whey Protein
Isoleucine (BCAA) 49mg 54mg
Leucine (BCAA) 82mg 89mg
Valine (BCAA) 48mg 82mg
Histidine 19mg 16mg
Lysine 64mg 88mg
Methionine 26mg 32mg
Phenylalanine 38mg 32mg
Threonine 38mg 65mg
Tryptophan 14mg 22mg
Totals 378mg 480mg

[Narkissos]

This is data I found on some webpage. Maybe the difference is insignificant, but whey seems to have a better profile.

Amino Acid Soy Protein Whey Protein
Isoleucine (BCAA) 49mg 54mg
Leucine (BCAA) 82mg 89mg
Valine (BCAA) 48mg 82mg
Histidine 19mg 16mg
Lysine 64mg 88mg
Methionine 26mg 32mg
Phenylalanine 38mg 32mg
Threonine 38mg 65mg
Tryptophan 14mg 22mg
Totals 378mg 480mg

I'll go one up for you there:





Insignificant really.

Especially seeing that you won't be using either as your sole protein source.

-CNS


References:

Misner, W.D., The Great Hammer Protein Debate: Which Protein Is The Best, How Much And When? THE JOURNAL OF ENDURANCE:2001:#8.

Disclaimer: Please do not re-distribute the attached images

[abbot138]

From what I have read, the studies that have found that soy has a negative impact on test levels were EXTREMELY flawed. In one study, several of the subjects had abnormally high test levels when they began they study period, meaning that they were more than likely in the middle of a cycle and therefore there subsequent drop in test levels over the next few months was most likey due to them finishing there cylce and not from the soy.

[Ajc330]

good info thanks Nark

[Narkissos]

^^Np

-CNS

[Mbuffguy]

why use soy when GOD put cows on earth

[Narkissos]

^^If you look at the essential amino acids... soy is only marginally lower.

If you look at the amino acid content per serving however.. soy is significantly higher in a number of important aminos:

Glutamine; Alanine; Glycine; Proline; Serine; Tyrosine...

I believe the arginine amount is higher in soy as well.

Tyrosine is a particularly sexy amino acid... Do a pubmed search on it.

-CNS

[Narkissos]

I believe the arginine amount is higher in soy as well.

3 times as high i should add.

Move over NO-xplode :P

-CNS

[naturalsux]

i love chocolate soy milk lots of good info Nark!

[Johnny_Rotten]

Awesome info Nark!

Great read bro, well appreciated.

I've got some friends who are vegetarians/vegans who are bodybuilders. Those guys love the soy & some of them are huge (natural too btw)

I used to consume a fair bit but then got a bit apprehensive because all you hear in the gym is "soy is sh#t. blah blah" might have to get onto some again.

Again thanx for the info.

[Narkissos]

Maybe someone should sticky this...

And rename it: "Soy.. facts and fiction"

I'm sure there'll be a lot more soy questions in future.

-CNS

[novastepp]

Maybe someone should sticky this...

And rename it: "Soy.. facts and fiction"

I'm sure there'll be a lot more soy questions in future.

-CNS

just keep it bumped

[Narkissos]

^^Np bros.

My personal experience with soy is extensive... It's good to be able to relay what i've experienced.

Speaking of which, soy makes me bigger and harder.

The only other proteins I've used extensively would be an egg + milk protein blend. (Universal nutrition's 'egg & milk protein' product).

Whey, regardless of the claim to being lactose-free, gives me gastric distress.

Even blends that include a portion of whey do this to me.

As well as causing a 'watery' look to my physique.

So I've been forced to find other protein alternatives.

Since finding soy.. It's been my mainstay.

Even when i use protein blends, soy is a major component.

..especially important while dieting.

-CNS

[suprman09]

morningstar farms makes some good soy products

[perfectbeast2001]

I would not drink milk or soy milk. both have become processed chemical garbage. I would not feed my dogs with them. We can thank the government and the huge multi national food corps for that. pastuerising milk was the worst thing that ever happened. milk was a great nutrient rich food source. It contained lactase which in turn breaks down lactose. Since the milk got heat treated and preocessed the lactase has gone and the lactose remains. This is why so many people (myself included) cannot drink it. The reason it became pasteurised is so they caould feed the animals on cheap mash which is a waste product from distilleries. The animals became sickly so they heat treat the milk. It is full of hormones from the poor animals too. Soy is no better. it is nothing more than a waste product that we have been fooled into believing is a good source of nutrients and protein. It has to be processed beyond belief just to remove toxins and make it safe to eat. No thanks.

[Dezeroth]

I would not drink milk or soy milk. both have become processed chemical garbage. I would not feed my dogs with them. We can thank the government and the huge multi national food corps for that. pastuerising milk was the worst thing that ever happened. milk was a great nutrient rich food source. It contained lactase which in turn breaks down lactose. Since the milk got heat treated and preocessed the lactase has gone and the lactose remains. This is why so many people (myself included) cannot drink it. The reason it became pasteurised is so they caould feed the animals on cheap mash which is a waste product from distilleries. The animals became sickly so they heat treat the milk. It is full of hormones from the poor animals too. Soy is no better. it is nothing more than a waste product that we have been fooled into believing is a good source of nutrients and protein. It has to be processed beyond belief just to remove toxins and make it safe to eat. No thanks.

you never let me down beast

[Narkissos]

you never let me down beast

l...m...a...o.

You guys are amazing.

-CNS

[Narkissos]

Soy is no better. it is nothing more than a waste product that we have been fooled into believing is a good source of nutrients and protein. It has to be processed beyond belief just to remove toxins and make it safe to eat. No thanks.

I disagree.

Soy was originally used for animal feed, because it was a high yield crop not unlike hemp.

To say that soy is garbage and processed beyond belief would make whey garbage.

Yet whey is the cornerstone of bodybuilding nutrition.

Whey is an end-product... Not the main objective of the milk-production empire.

Much like whey is derived from defatted milk, Soy proteinis extracted from defatted soy-flour.

I'd say less processing goes into Soy protein by far.


Beans + Hexane (solvent, separates oil)--> Oil + flour (soy meal and soy flour are not the same thing)

Soy flour refers to defatted soybeans where special care was taken during desolventizing (not toasted) in order to minimize denaturation of the protein to retain a high Nitrogen Solubility Index (NSI), for uses such as extruder texturizing (TVP). It is the starting material for production of soy concentrate and soy protein isolate.[1]

Soy flour + Aqueous Alcohol Processing[2]---> Soy protein

Hm... I can think of a number of foods in the modern-day bodybuilder's diet that have through more production steps than that.. yet aren't touted as 'garbage'.

-CNS

References:
[1]"Soybean". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soybean
[2]"Separation Sciences". http://foodprotein.tamu.edu/separations/protein.php