Does my 12w Enanthate + Dbol Cycle look ok?

[jmpata]

Sup guys, long time reader and first time poster. I just wanted to get the knowledgeable muscle head community’s blessing and/or verbal condemnation on my cycle’s dosing, PCT, gyno preparedness and regiment. I did quite a bit of research on many different forms and feel pretty comfortable with my cycle setup but any advice on improvements or things that seem completely wrong would be appreciated. I know it’s recommended to do a test only cycle for your first plunge but I decided to opt for a dbol primer in addition after hearing good things after research. I also did my due diligence with a pre-cycle full blood work so I can see when I have recovered to normalcy. Please give proof/support for recommendations. Thanks for your advice in advance.

Background
First time AAS user
25 years old (26 in June)
193 pounds with 8% bf measured via hydrostatic weighing
5 years of serious resistance training

12 Week Enanthate + Dbol Cycle
W 1-5 = 35mg Dbol ED (consuming 5mg tabs over 7 meals)
W 1-12 = 250mg Enanthate every Sun and Wed (administered with 22g 1.5 inch syringe intramuscularly)
W 1-12 = 200mg Vitamin B6 ED
W 1-14 = During week 1-12 take 500IU HCG every Sun and Wed (administered with 31g 5/16 inch insulin syringe). During 12 day gap between ending Enanthate and starting PCT I am going to take 500IU HCG EOD and stop before PCT.

Gynecomastia Preparedness = If gyno symptoms appear administer 10mg Nolvadex ED for 3-4 days or until symptoms regress.
I debated whether to use an Anti-E in small doses during cycle but it was just getting way too expensive for my taste. Maybe I will use an Anti-E during my second cycle when I find cheaper online sources.

Post Cycle Therapy (12 days after last dose of Test E)
W 14 = Nolvadex (60mg first day then 40mg ED rest of week), Clomid (300mg first day then 100mg ED rest of week), some OTC natural test boosters
W 15 = Nolvadex (40mg ED), Clomid (100mg ED), some OTC natural test boosters
W 16 = Nolvadex (40mg ED), Clomid (50mg ED), some OTC natural test boosters
W17 = Nolvadex (30mg ED), Clomid (50mg ED)
W18 = Nolvadex (10mg ED), Clomid (50mg ED)

Questions
1) Does my cycle above look ok? Dosing? Administering? PCT? Gyno preparedness? Regiment?
2) Is there anything else I can do to reduce bloating and water retention except take an Ani-E during cycle? Drink more water? Diuretics? Vitamins? Herbs? OTC products?
3) I know that over the counter (OTC) natural test boosters pretty much suck balls but anyone recommend some good ones besides Tribulus, ZMA, IGF-1+
4) Can I add something to improve this cycle’s effectiveness?

Thanks again in advance! You guys are geniuses with this stuff!

[gixxerboy1]

How tall are you?
Everything looks good.
dont waste your money on the otc test booster and buy an ai you can get it from ar-r probably cheaper then those sups

[jmpata]

I am 6'1" why? Cool thanks, I am always looking for cheap online sources, I will check them out. Know any other good ones?

[thex95]

I am 6'1" why? Cool thanks, I am always looking for cheap online sources, I will check them out. Know any other good ones?

pump the brakes man you can ask for sources on here.

[thex95]

I am only going to address the AAS your using, I will leave the PCT up to the other more experienced guys. I think you should drop the dbol and only run the test for the first time. That way if you develop sides you will know exactly what is causing it.

[gixxerboy1]

oh and pct would start week 15 not 14

[jmpata]

oh and pct would start week 15 not 14

Start PCT 12-14 days after last test E shot right?

[BBrian]

To begin with, I've injected with 22g needles and 23g needles, and the difference is very noticeable. I would highly recommend using either 23, 24 or 25 gauge needles for the sake of comfort and avoiding scar tissue.

Second, like Scotts pointed out it's best to avoid Dbol just yet, but if you are bent on using it, I would compromise by using it for only four weeks and lowering the dose to 30mg per day. If you find that sleep becomes near-impossible because of the Dbol, I would suggest taking half in the morning and the other half pre-workout.

Third, don't skip the AI during cycle because you don't want to spend any more money. This is very irresponsible and you don't want wait to address estrogen until it's already so high that it's causing sides. This approach is counterproductive. High estrogen in a male can cause serious short and long-term harm to your body beyond bloating, gyno and acne. Besides, if you are going to take Dbol, I can almost guarantee that estrogen will be an issue for you. As well, once estrogen causes acne on your back and shoulders, taking an AI or SERM won't matter, it will be too late. Just visit AR-R and you will find very affordable liquid AI's for sale. And don't forget to take a liver supplement while taking Dbol.

And oh yeah, how tall are you?

[jmpata]

Third, don't skip the AI during cycle because you don't want to spend any more money. This is very irresponsible and you don't want wait to address estrogen until it's already so high that it's causing sides. This approach is counterproductive. High estrogen in a male can cause serious short and long-term harm to your body beyond bloating, gyno and acne. Besides, if you are going to take Dbol, I can almost guarantee that estrogen will be an issue for you. As well, once estrogen causes acne on your back and shoulders, taking an AI or SERM won't matter, it will be too late. Just visit AR-R and you will find very affordable liquid AI's for sale. And don't forget to take a liver supplement while taking Dbol.

Thanks for the good advice BBrian.
1) Do you have a preferred AI to recommend running during the cycle? L-Dex? A-Dex? Letrozole? Aromasin?
2) What kind of dose should I use ED for the AI?
3) With your experience do you recommend anything else to minimize bloating/water retention during cycle?

And oh yeah, how tall are you?

I am 6'1" why?

[gixxerboy1]

14 days after last injection

[Revelations]

Start PCT 12-14 days after last test E shot right?

Yes week 15, u will still pin on week 12 if u are doing a 12 week cycle...week 13/14 no SERMs and PCT will start on week 15

[BBrian]

I have always used Arimidex, primarily because I've always considered it to be the standard, not to mention that it's widely available. It should be noted, however, that Aromasin has the least amount of toxicity, but needs to be taken in much larger doses than Arimidex. If I were on your cycle, I would probably take 0.5mg every other day, then lower it to 0.25mg every other day a week after discontinuing use of Dianobol. Others may have varying opinions, but this should be close to what anyone else would recommend. As for bloating, Arimidex completely controls any bloating I encounter.

We asked your height just for the sake of putting your weight into perspective.

[jmpata]

I have always used Arimidex, primarily because I've always considered it to be the standard, not to mention that it's widely available. It should be noted, however, that Aromasin has the least amount of toxicity, but needs to be taken in much larger doses than Arimidex. If I were on your cycle, I would probably take 0.5mg every other day, then lower it to 0.25mg every other day a week after discontinuing use of Dianobol. Others may have varying opinions, but this should be close to what anyone else would
recommend. As for bloating, Arimidex completely controls any bloating I encounter.
We asked your height just for the sake of putting your weight into perspective.

Thanks DDavid, I will consider taking Arimidex now. Does anyone know how long Ar-r shipping takes to CA?

[BBrian]

Thanks DDavid, I will consider taking Arimidex now. Does anyone know how long Ar-r shipping takes to CA?

Haha, who is DDavid? This cracked me up.

[jmpata]

Haha, who is DDavid? This cracked me up.

Hahaha sorry David.... I mean Brian, that's what happens when I try to multi task ROID research on my smart phone while using my computer at work, brain fart.

I found something called "LiquiDex 30ml (1mg/ml)" at that store. Is this the Arimidex you were talking about? I thought it was a tab you swallow, how do you take this liquid version?

[MickeyKnox]

someone will probably pm you shortly. and you're lucky..it's on sale today.

[gixxerboy1]

Hahaha sorry David.... I mean Brian, that's what happens when I try to multi task ROID research on my smart phone while using my computer at work, brain fart.

I found something called "LiquiDex 30ml (1mg/ml)" at that store. Is this the Arimidex you were talking about? I thought it was a tab you swallow, how do you take this liquid version?

yes its the same thing. It in liquid form because its for "research use" that way you can sell with out a script

[BBrian]

Hahaha sorry David.... I mean Brian, that's what happens when I try to multi task ROID research on my smart phone while using my computer at work, brain fart.

I found something called "LiquiDex 30ml (1mg/ml)" at that store. Is this the Arimidex you were talking about? I thought it was a tab you swallow, how do you take this liquid version?

You just drink the liquid version. Not for injections.

[gixxerboy1]

Thanks DDavid, I will consider taking Arimidex now. Does anyone know how long Ar-r shipping takes to CA?

it will only take a couple days to receive

[MickeyKnox]

to the OP; i think your chosen cycle is pretty good as well. but, i would definitely include an AI on cycle. AR-R will be your best bet. good luck

[Blergs]

to the OP; i think your chosen cycle is pretty good as well. but, i would definitely include an AI on cycle. AR-R will be your best bet. good luck

the AR-R site is great for research chems, i would also rec it.

[Razor]

I commend you for a well put together cycle and doing your research before asking us for help.
I think you are gonna be good to go.
Only thing I would say is run the HCG two weeks on and off, dont run it for 12 weeks straight.
You become desensitized.

[MickeyKnox]

I commend you for a well put together cycle and doing your research before asking us for help.
I think you are gonna be good to go.
Only thing I would say is run the HCG two weeks on and off, dont run it for 12 weeks straight.
You become desensitized.

i disagree. if he doesn't space it out 7 days or more hell be fine. BUT, ideally you want to inject every 4 days. and where did you get the on off cycling info from? do you have a link Razr?

"For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4 days starting 14 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels. This will initiate a strong LH and FSH surge from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn’t begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system."

EDIT: forgot to include this part:

"Keep in mind, that the half-life of hCG is 3-4 days, while the half-life of LH is only 1-2 hours. Considering this difference in excretion time, it is best to space each dose of hCG at least 4 days apart for the optimal “peak and valley” replication. However, going more than 7 days between each hCG shot may promote increase the rate of desensitization from lack of LH or hCG stimulation."

[jmpata]

i disagree. if he doesn't space it out 7 days or more hell be fine. BUT, ideally you want to inject every 4 days. and where did you get the on off cycling info from? do you have a link Razr?

"For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4 days starting 14 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels. This will initiate a strong LH and FSH surge from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn’t begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system."

EDIT: forgot to include this part:

"Keep in mind, that the half-life of hCG is 3-4 days, while the half-life of LH is only 1-2 hours. Considering this difference in excretion time, it is best to space each dose of hCG at least 4 days apart for the optimal “peak and valley” replication. However, going more than 7 days between each hCG shot may promote increase the rate of desensitization from lack of LH or hCG stimulation."

1) Does everyone agree I need to start the hCG 2 weeks after first Test E shot (instead of day 1) even if I am starting Dbol at day 1?

2) What is the reasoning behind this?

3) Would there any advantages or disadvantages to starting hCG the same time as first Test E shot?

[jmpata]

I commend you for a well put together cycle and doing your research before asking us for help.
I think you are gonna be good to go.
Only thing I would say is run the HCG two weeks on and off, dont run it for 12 weeks straight.
You become desensitized.

Good advice didn't think about that. And do you agree to run 500IU EOD during 14 window inbetween my cycle and PCT?

[MickeyKnox]

Good advice didn't think about that. And do you agree to run 500IU EOD during 14 window inbetween my cycle and PCT?

dood, re read my post carefully. if you want to increase the hcg dose, that's perfectly fine. but do not cycle hcg on and off.

and Letro is NOT necessary - it's very harsh on your body and better served for more experienced users, or higher dosed cycles. use dex or Aromisin (my first choice for first time use and light cycle)

my .02 im out..good luck man

[Razor]

Good advice didn't think about that. And do you agree to run 500IU EOD during 14 window inbetween my cycle and PCT?

Yea but run it two weeks on and off, and make sure there is a two week gap btw the last hcg week and your PCT so your primed to run it and not desensitized to the clomid and nova. I would run 250 3x a week..monday wed friday, but thats just me.

[Blergs]

Sup guys, long time reader and first time poster. I just wanted to get the knowledgeable muscle head community’s blessing and/or verbal condemnation on my cycle’s dosing, PCT, gyno preparedness and regiment. I did quite a bit of research on many different forms and feel pretty comfortable with my cycle setup but any advice on improvements or things that seem completely wrong would be appreciated. I know it’s recommended to do a test only cycle for your first plunge but I decided to opt for a dbol primer in addition after hearing good things after research. I also did my due diligence with a pre-cycle full blood work so I can see when I have recovered to normalcy. Please give proof/support for recommendations. Thanks for your advice in advance.

Background
First time AAS user
25 years old (26 in June)
193 pounds with 8% bf measured via hydrostatic weighing
5 years of serious resistance training

12 Week Enanthate + Dbol Cycle
W 1-5 = 35mg Dbol ED (consuming 5mg tabs over 7 meals)
W 1-12 = 250mg Enanthate every Sun and Wed (administered with 22g 1.5 inch syringe intramuscularly)
W 1-12 = 200mg Vitamin B6 ED
W 1-14 = During week 1-12 take 500IU HCG every Sun and Wed (administered with 31g 5/16 inch insulin syringe). During 12 day gap between ending Enanthate and starting PCT I am going to take 500IU HCG EOD and stop before PCT.

Gynecomastia Preparedness = If gyno symptoms appear administer 10mg Nolvadex ED for 3-4 days or until symptoms regress.
I debated whether to use an Anti-E in small doses during cycle but it was just getting way too expensive for my taste. Maybe I will use an Anti-E during my second cycle when I find cheaper online sources.

Post Cycle Therapy (12 days after last dose of Test E)
W 14 = Nolvadex (60mg first day then 40mg ED rest of week), Clomid (300mg first day then 100mg ED rest of week), some OTC natural test boosters
W 15 = Nolvadex (40mg ED), Clomid (100mg ED), some OTC natural test boosters
W 16 = Nolvadex (40mg ED), Clomid (50mg ED), some OTC natural test boosters
W17 = Nolvadex (30mg ED), Clomid (50mg ED)
W18 = Nolvadex (10mg ED), Clomid (50mg ED)

Questions
1) Does my cycle above look ok? Dosing? Administering? PCT? Gyno preparedness? Regiment?
2) Is there anything else I can do to reduce bloating and water retention except take an Ani-E during cycle? Drink more water? Diuretics? Vitamins? Herbs? OTC products?
3) I know that over the counter (OTC) natural test boosters pretty much suck balls but anyone recommend some good ones besides Tribulus, ZMA, IGF-1+
4) Can I add something to improve this cycle’s effectiveness?

Thanks again in advance! You guys are geniuses with this stuff!

Cycle looks great but gyno control is an issue, nolva or clomid ARE NOT AI's, they dont lower estrogen.
you want somthinglike letro .
I use when needed: 0.6mg-1.2mg(half tab) e3d.

[xelnaga]

Cycle looks great but gyno control is an issue, nolva or clomid ARE NOT AI's, they dont lower estrogen.
you want somthinglike letro .
I use when needed: 0.6mg-1.2mg(half tab) e3d.

I would not recommend letro to new guys. It took me years to find the perfect dose of letro. I would have to see a new guy spend his cycle crashing/fixing his estrogen the whole time because hes on letro.

[BBrian]

I'm getting really confused with the information about HCG here. Mickey is saying not to ever run HCG on and off, and Razr is saying to run it 2 weeks on and off. In fact this is the first time I've ever heard of HCG being used on and off in any sense aside from cycle to cycle. Can anyone clarify this before someone ruins their gonads? heh

[MickeyKnox]

Brian, my information comes direction form the Educational Threads and from senior veterans - i backed up my comments.

perhaps Razr has misunderstood the last part of the HCG Ed thread that says, and i quote.."In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash."

other than that, i'm unable to explain his theory.

[Razor]

Maybe I am wrong, I was pretty sure that using HCG longer than 2-3 weeks at time can cause desensitization to the LH..give me a link and I will re read it if I am wrong.

[Razor]

I am pretty sure that continued use of HCG will desensitize the leydig cells to lh, meaning once you stop using the HCG as an artificial lh, you will crash bad. The natural lh production once restored by using Nolvadex or clomid.

Now if this is not the case On cycle and you can run it 12 weeks in a row then I'm wrong....need a vet to comment here who knows more than us.

[jmpata]

I am pretty sure that continued use of HCG will desensitize the leydig cells to lh, meaning once you stop using the HCG as an artificial lh, you will crash bad. The natural lh production once restored by using Nolvadex or clomid.

Now if this is not the case On cycle and you can run it 12 weeks in a row then I'm wrong....need a vet to comment here who knows more than us.

Thanks Razr. Any vets in house to comment, I plan on using my balls after my cycle...

[Razor]

Thanks Razr. Any vets in house to comment, I plan on using my balls after my cycle...

Yes I want you too be able to use them as well....wait on starting till we get a definitive answer to this.
Personally I just dont see how running it for 12 weeks would work but I'm not the end all answer here..need someone with more knowledge.

[MickeyKnox]

Thanks Razr. Any vets in house to comment, I plan on using my balls after my cycle...

you're welcome.

and for the record, it's a well respected report written be Eric Potratz. it's on every AAS site that i know of, including this one.

[jmpata]

you're welcome.

and for the record, it's a well respected report written be Eric Potratz. it's on every AAS site that i know of, including this one.

Yeah close one my balls thank you

[gixxerboy1]

Razor is wrong. You dont need to do 2 weeks on 2 weeks off

[jmpata]

Razor is wrong. You dont need to do 2 weeks on 2 weeks off

Thanks Gixxerboy1

[jmpata]

Does everyone agree to start hCG 2 weeks into cycle instead of day 1 of cycle? What is the benifit to this? What is the worst thing that would happen if you started on day 1?