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    An article by U.S. Army Brigadier-General (R) JAMES J. DAVID-3-1-2003

    Is there any criminal act that Israel can do without being protected from criticism from the United States? If there is I haven't seen it.
    And I haven't seen it from the Bush Administration or from the Clinton Administration or from any administration before them. But when you consider the influence of Israel's lobby and its political action committees and the more than $41 million they've given to Congress and the White House, is it any wonder Israel is shielded from any shame?

    For more than 54 years the Israelis have committed acts that no other nation would dare get away with. But even here in America, where it is not yet illegal to publicly ask the wrong questions, any public figure that does so is subjected to smears, intimidation and the attempted destruction of his career and reputation by Jewish organizations and by the very cooperative news media.

    A few examples of these criminal acts committed by Israel include the treacherous attack on the USS Liberty on June 8, 1967, killing 34 American sailors and wounding another 171. There can now be no disputing that Israel knew its identity, and that the ship was in international waters and clearly marked as a U.S. Naval vessel. What was most treacherous though was not the perfidy of Israel but that of President Lyndon B. Johnson ordering the recall of the sixth fleet when he found out that the attackers were not the Arabs but the Israelis. The treasonous compliance continues today as corrupt politicians refuse to take any action against Israel and continue their efforts in hushing-up the whole affair although there seems to be a strong campaign by the Liberty survivors and other brave patriotic Americans in exposing the Israelis of their criminal attack.

    Another example of Israel's callous disregard for its supposed "ally" America was the bombing of the U.S. Marine barracks in Lebanon in 1983, which killed over 200 U.S. servicemen.

    In April 1996, the Israelis attacked an U.N. refugee camp in Qana, Lebanon, and killed 103 innocent men, women and especially children.
    A U.N. investigation determined the attack was intentional and stated that "while the possibility cannot be ruled out completely, the pattern of impacts in the Qana area makes it unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of technical and/or procedural errors." Shortly after this report the U.N. Security Council voted to condemn Israel for the attack and all nations, with the exception of the U.S., voted in favor of the resolution. In other words, intentionally slaughtering 103 civilians was not sufficient for the United States to condemn Israel. Yet, when Hezbollah attacks Israel's illegal occupation of southern Lebanon and results in the deaths of two Israeli soldiers the U.S. is first to condemn this legal resistance.

    These are just a few of the criminal acts committed by the Israeli government and shielded from criticism by U.S. politicians or even reported by the controlled media.

    Although September 11th brought the fight on terrorism to the front burner, it seems that the United States protects Israel from any criticism here too. An Israeli instant-messaging firm Odigo confirmed that two employees received text messages warning of an attack on the World Trade Center two hours before terrorists crashed planes into the New York landmarks. (Ha'aretz, December 20, 2002.) Is it possible that Israel had foreknowledge of the attack? Could this be the answer why many Israeli employees at the World Trade Center never showed up for work that tragic September morning? If this is the case then the fact that Israel's government had prior knowledge of the pending attack and not warned the Americans makes them as guilty as our enemy. Whatever the case, our government must make a complete and thorough investigation without any threats from Jewish and Israeli interest groups.

    Shielding Israel from criticism and supporting the Jewish state no matter what crimes she commits has caused the United States the loss of respect around the world. In addition, Israel has cost American taxpayers more than $120 billion in the past 40 years. Our one-sided unbalanced Middle East policy has created the hatred of millions and the primary cause of terrorism that has landed on our own soil.

    Criticizing our government's dangerous policies and its submissions to the Jewish lobby doesn't make anyone less patriotic or any less of an American. George Washington said it best when he stated that "passionate attachment to another nation produces a variety of evils...the illusion of common interests where no real common interests exist; adopting the enmities of the other; and participation in the quarrels and wars of the other without any justification. Still another evil is that such a passionate attachment gives to ambitious, corrupted or deluded citizens the facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country."

    [James J. David is a retired Brigadier General and a graduate of the U.S. Army's Command and General Staff College, and the National Security Course, National Defense University, Washington DC. He served as a Company Commander with the 101st Airborne Division in the Republic of Vietnam in 1969 and 1970 and also served nearly 3 years of Army active duty in and around the Middle East from 1967-1969.]

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    You are getting much better at this M'guy.

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    I actually agree with a few points in there, M-guy.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino58
    I actually agree with a few points in there.
    I actualy like this post and what it has to say

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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by LM1332
    I actualy like this post and what it has to say
    Me too. No, I'm not anti-semitic.

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    Finally a grain of truth.

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    This however does not condone Muslim terrorist acts/ two wrongs don't make a right.

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    1victor - nothing condones a terrorist act, but that article summed up a lot of questions I've had for a long time. Never understood how the US could support Israel so much and then when the US asks Israel to do anything, they blatantly say, "No" without a flinch. It's never been a two way street.
    I personally can see why the Palestianians (as a whole) are so pissed. Every bomb or tank that rips through their villages has a US signature on it. I just never understood and still don't why the US has made so many excuses for Israel's behavior.

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    thank their is no "nuke em all " posts

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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitiaGuy
    Is there any criminal act that Israel can do without being protected from criticism from the United States? If there is I haven't seen it.
    And I haven't seen it from the Bush Administration or from the Clinton Administration or from any administration before them. But when you consider the influence of Israel's lobby and its political action committees and the more than $41 million they've given to Congress and the White House, is it any wonder Israel is shielded from any shame?

    For more than 54 years the Israelis have committed acts that no other nation would dare get away with. But even here in America, where it is not yet illegal to publicly ask the wrong questions, any public figure that does so is subjected to smears, intimidation and the attempted destruction of his career and reputation by Jewish organizations and by the very cooperative news media.

    A few examples of these criminal acts committed by Israel include the treacherous attack on the USS Liberty on June 8, 1967, killing 34 American sailors and wounding another 171. There can now be no disputing that Israel knew its identity, and that the ship was in international waters and clearly marked as a U.S. Naval vessel. What was most treacherous though was not the perfidy of Israel but that of President Lyndon B. Johnson ordering the recall of the sixth fleet when he found out that the attackers were not the Arabs but the Israelis. The treasonous compliance continues today as corrupt politicians refuse to take any action against Israel and continue their efforts in hushing-up the whole affair although there seems to be a strong campaign by the Liberty survivors and other brave patriotic Americans in exposing the Israelis of their criminal attack.

    Another example of Israel's callous disregard for its supposed "ally" America was the bombing of the U.S. Marine barracks in Lebanon in 1983, which killed over 200 U.S. servicemen.

    In April 1996, the Israelis attacked an U.N. refugee camp in Qana, Lebanon, and killed 103 innocent men, women and especially children.
    A U.N. investigation determined the attack was intentional and stated that "while the possibility cannot be ruled out completely, the pattern of impacts in the Qana area makes it unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of technical and/or procedural errors." Shortly after this report the U.N. Security Council voted to condemn Israel for the attack and all nations, with the exception of the U.S., voted in favor of the resolution. In other words, intentionally slaughtering 103 civilians was not sufficient for the United States to condemn Israel. Yet, when Hezbollah attacks Israel's illegal occupation of southern Lebanon and results in the deaths of two Israeli soldiers the U.S. is first to condemn this legal resistance.

    These are just a few of the criminal acts committed by the Israeli government and shielded from criticism by U.S. politicians or even reported by the controlled media.

    Although September 11th brought the fight on terrorism to the front burner, it seems that the United States protects Israel from any criticism here too. An Israeli instant-messaging firm Odigo confirmed that two employees received text messages warning of an attack on the World Trade Center two hours before terrorists crashed planes into the New York landmarks. (Ha'aretz, December 20, 2002.) Is it possible that Israel had foreknowledge of the attack? Could this be the answer why many Israeli employees at the World Trade Center never showed up for work that tragic September morning? If this is the case then the fact that Israel's government had prior knowledge of the pending attack and not warned the Americans makes them as guilty as our enemy. Whatever the case, our government must make a complete and thorough investigation without any threats from Jewish and Israeli interest groups.

    Shielding Israel from criticism and supporting the Jewish state no matter what crimes she commits has caused the United States the loss of respect around the world. In addition, Israel has cost American taxpayers more than $120 billion in the past 40 years. Our one-sided unbalanced Middle East policy has created the hatred of millions and the primary cause of terrorism that has landed on our own soil.

    Criticizing our government's dangerous policies and its submissions to the Jewish lobby doesn't make anyone less patriotic or any less of an American. George Washington said it best when he stated that "passionate attachment to another nation produces a variety of evils...the illusion of common interests where no real common interests exist; adopting the enmities of the other; and participation in the quarrels and wars of the other without any justification. Still another evil is that such a passionate attachment gives to ambitious, corrupted or deluded citizens the facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country."

    [James J. David is a retired Brigadier General and a graduate of the U.S. Army's Command and General Staff College, and the National Security Course, National Defense University, Washington DC. He served as a Company Commander with the 101st Airborne Division in the Republic of Vietnam in 1969 and 1970 and also served nearly 3 years of Army active duty in and around the Middle East from 1967-1969.]
    couldnt agree more, exellent thread !

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    Poor Gen. Davis is now labelled as Nazi and anti-semitic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3Vandoo
    Poor Gen. Davis is now labelled as Nazi and anti-semitic!
    IMO nazi and gestapo are angels compared to zionism and mosad

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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitiaGuy
    IMO nazi and gestapo are angels compared to zionism and mosad

    Curious Militia Guy -

    So what is your solution to the "Israel problem" as you see it? What should be done with that country? What is it that would make you happy?

    Please respond. Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by scottp999
    Curious Militia Guy -

    So what is your solution to the "Israel problem" as you see it? What should be done with that country? What is it that would make you happy?

    Please respond. Thanks!
    what would make me happy if palestine get ruled by arabs only because its an arabic land and zionist stole it ,i know this will not happen by just talking to the israelis because what was taken by power will only be given by power so we will keep fighting them until we fulfill our goal...and we know we will only terminate the jews when imam mahdi apear and lead his great army into jerusalem.yea its a hard long road but its the only road to victory.

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    M-Guy what was the statement that you were emphasizing by posting this? Zionist America?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    M-Guy what was the statement that you were emphasizing by posting this? Zionist America?
    no ,not at all i just mean that zionism is the worst organizition in the world now and future will prove it more

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    "What we have here is failure to communicate" Israel is the Holy land of the Jews, it is the Holy land of the Christians, and Muslims come along hundreds of years later and claim that , no........................ really it is their Holy land.

    Christians and Jews share the same interest, it is that simple. Muslims do not and would like basically all non Muslims to leave or be killed.

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    I am not trying to be a jerk but if the USA really was controlled by the Jews we would have nuked the Palestinians by now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    I am not trying to be a jerk but if the USA really was controlled by the Jews we would have nuked the Palestinians by now.
    yea u have the nukes but sooner or later some muslims or arabs coutry will have those nukes 2 ,iran will have them soo i think so those nuke will be useless because if u use them we will use them 2 and it will ruin the world .So i think all the nukes are useless and no one will use them .

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    I agree but what is your position on my previous statement regarding Holy land?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1victor
    I agree but what is your position on my previous statement regarding Holy land?
    we dont want to kick all the jews or christian or kill them ,this land must be ruled by the palestinian ppl.we just want to kick out all the zionist jews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitiaGuy
    we dont want to kick all the jews or christian or kill them ,this land must be ruled by the palestinian ppl.we just want to kick out all the zionist jews.
    I like to hear your point of view since things are pretty one sided in the media here. Not saying I agree but that I like to hear what other people think and their reasoning.

    I watched a documentary once about Arafat and it said that he had claimed Palestine was in Jordan. Jordan ran him out with tanks so they settled in Lebanon, Lebenon kicked him out and he went to the west Bank. Is that a historically inacurate account of Arafat's adventures?

    Also. I do not understand the whole right of return issue. I know there are many arabs that are in refugee camps that want that right. Were does that originate? What is the Arab/Islamic claim to the lands in Israel? Why do they feel they have more rights to the land then Jewish people? I saw this chart on where Palestiniens are located and it also has several documents on the right of return that I just don't have time to go through right now.

    http://www.globalpolicy.org/security...s/palindx4.htm

  23. #23
    Militiaguy finally!!!!!!!!!!! You see when people state facts and not propaganda, magical things happen, people aren't turned off and agreements can be reached.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZTKWORRIOR
    Militiaguy finally!!!!!!!!!!! You see when people state facts and not propaganda, magical things happen, people aren't turned off and agreements can be reached.
    thats why i dont see OGPACKIN or Singern her because they only participate in threads wher i get offended

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    Quote Originally Posted by scottp999
    I like to hear your point of view since things are pretty one sided in the media here. Not saying I agree but that I like to hear what other people think and their reasoning.

    I watched a documentary once about Arafat and it said that he had claimed Palestine was in Jordan. Jordan ran him out with tanks so they settled in Lebanon, Lebenon kicked him out and he went to the west Bank. Is that a historically inacurate account of Arafat's adventures?

    Also. I do not understand the whole right of return issue. I know there are many arabs that are in refugee camps that want that right. Were does that originate? What is the Arab/Islamic claim to the lands in Israel? Why do they feel they have more rights to the land then Jewish people? I saw this chart on where Palestiniens are located and it also has several documents on the right of return that I just don't have time to go through right now.

    http://www.globalpolicy.org/security...s/palindx4.htm
    yea man sad but true arafat realy forgot about his cause in the past and wanted to make a state in jordan then kicked he switeched to lebanon and then in the end "amal movement" party kicked them out that why her we hate arafat i think he is a b@stard,when left lebanon he said that he will turn beirut into dust.
    what we r claiming is true , this land is for arabs ,jews stole it because of the british belford promess of a holy land of the jews.
    Last edited by MilitiaGuy; 05-29-2004 at 08:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scottp999
    I like to hear your point of view since things are pretty one sided in the media here. Not saying I agree but that I like to hear what other people think and their reasoning.

    I watched a documentary once about Arafat and it said that he had claimed Palestine was in Jordan. Jordan ran him out with tanks so they settled in Lebanon, Lebenon kicked him out and he went to the west Bank. Is that a historically inacurate account of Arafat's adventures?

    Also. I do not understand the whole right of return issue. I know there are many arabs that are in refugee camps that want that right. Were does that originate? What is the Arab/Islamic claim to the lands in Israel? Why do they feel they have more rights to the land then Jewish people? I saw this chart on where Palestiniens are located and it also has several documents on the right of return that I just don't have time to go through right now.

    http://www.globalpolicy.org/security...s/palindx4.htm
    the right to return is about the palastinians wanting back thier houses,farms and land which they legally own.

    back when the fighting started lots of palastinians where either kicked out of thier houses by jews , ran for safty or moved to naigbouring countries temporally.

    but the houses or property contracts where never given or sold to the jews.
    basically when they came back after the war there houses, farms and land where taken over by jews.

    so lets say america was demilitrzied and you had no millitry and mexico came and invaded your country and you and your family ran to canida for safty and when you came back your house and land was taken over by mexicans.
    and you where not allowed to have your legally owend house back or come back to america.
    if you wanted your house back and wanted to come back to america that would be your "right of return"


    basically when it comes down to it the zionist jews belive that isreal and the land of palestine and some other arab countries belongs to them becuase god promised them the land, and that they have the right to take the land by force expelling the non-jews becuase they want to re-create "eretz yisrael" which is greater israel which stems from the river nile(egypt) all the way to the river Euphrates(iraq) and they belive that any land inbetween the rivers belongs to the jews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by physio_sport
    ....so lets say america was demilitrzied and you had no millitry and mexico came and invaded your country and you and your family ran to canida for safty and when you came back your house and land was taken over by mexicans.
    and you where not allowed to have your legally owend house back or come back to america.
    if you wanted your house back and wanted to come back to america that would be your "right of return"


    basically when it comes down to it the zionist jews belive that isreal and the land of palestine and some other arab countries belongs to them becuase god promised them the land, and that they have the right to take the land by force expelling the non-jews becuase they want to re-create "eretz yisrael" which is greater israel which stems from the river nile(egypt) all the way to the river Euphrates(iraq) and they belive that any land inbetween the rivers belongs to the jews.

    ....seems to me, that if you start a fight and lose, then you lose your rights to that land. If we couldn't take care of ourselves (like palestine) then we shouldn't start shiat to begin with. Texas was once part of Mexico....not any more......we can't let Mexicans come back across now and claim their land back.....

    peace,

    ttgb

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    Please define Zionist Jews

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    Sad but true....Many foreign governments lobby both our congress and white house in order to get their agenda furthered....This should be changed ASAP since it does our country much more harm than good!

    M'guy brings up one very good point that should wake a few of us up...He states that "they" will soon have many nukes also and the old cold war mentality(nuke me and we all die) does not apply since the russians were not fanatics....Fanatic+Nuke= will use it no matter what!
    I vote for a first strike but our politicians lack the courage and will. We will have to get hit very hard ourselves before the right guys can step up and take care of business the right way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benches505
    He states that "they" will soon have many nukes also and the old cold war mentality(nuke me and we all die) does not apply since the russians were not fanatics....Fanatic+Nuke= will use it no matter what!
    I vote for a first strike but our politicians lack the courage and will. We will have to get hit very hard ourselves before the right guys can step up and take care of business the right way.
    I hate to tell you this, but "they" already have nukes...

    Remember the Pakistan - India nuclear arms race which was escalating (and the main world peace concern until 9-11), and both countries have nuclear capabilities. Pakistan is a muslim country.

    Now Pakistan happens to be a "friend" of the US this week so all appears fine... for now. But never forget that both Saddam and Osama were also "friends" of the US at some time... things change awefully quick in this game.

    Will Pakistan give nukes to Iran or Palestinians? I doubt it... but then again I also never imagined a handfull of Saudis (another "friend" of the US) would crash planes into the WTC and the Pentagon one day...

    But the bottom line is that even without speculating about missing soviet nukes and north korea black market, we know for sure at least one Muslim nation does have nukes.

    Red

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Ketchup
    I hate to tell you this, but "they" already have nukes...

    Remember the Pakistan - India nuclear arms race which was escalating (and the main world peace concern until 9-11), and both countries have nuclear capabilities. Pakistan is a muslim country.

    Now Pakistan happens to be a "friend" of the US this week so all appears fine... for now. But never forget that both Saddam and Osama were also "friends" of the US at some time... things change awefully quick in this game.

    Will Pakistan give nukes to Iran or Palestinians? I doubt it... but then again I also never imagined a handfull of Saudis (another "friend" of the US) would crash planes into the WTC and the Pentagon one day...

    But the bottom line is that even without speculating about missing soviet nukes and north korea black market, we know for sure at least one Muslim nation does have nukes.

    Red
    what are you trying to say that india has the right for nukes but pakistan does not?

    what alot of people dont understand is that pakistan is very small in size compared to india. to destroy pakistan all you need is 1 or 2 nukes but to destory india you will need many more.

    another thing that people dont under stand is that pakistan is out numbered in every way.

    for every 1 pakistani soldier india has 2.
    for every 1 pakistani tank india has 2 or 3.
    for every 1 pakistani fighter jet india has 2 or 3.
    for every 1 pakistani special forces india has 2.

    the only reson why pakistan survived in the past is becuase pakistani troops where better trianned then the indian troops.

    now the only thing that is basically keeping pakistan alive is the nukes.

    india is trying to be a regonal superpower and pakistan is getting in its way becuase no one is taking inida seriously. think about it if france(small country) was taking on russia(big country) do you really think anyone would take russia as a serious superpower.

    india is already aggressive towards nearly all its surrounding countries it already been involved in conflicts with pakistan and also with china.

    why does every one think that the muslims "countries" always start the fights and are the aggressive ones, while the non-muslims always are the victims.

    take a look at what indians do to muslims.

    please read these links :
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1850424.stm
    http://www.paknews.org/letters.php?i...te1=2002-03-01
    http://dawn.com/2003/09/27/top15.htm

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by physio_sport
    what are you trying to say that india has the right for nukes but pakistan does not?

    what alot of people dont understand is that pakistan is very small in size compared to india. to destroy pakistan all you need is 1 or 2 nukes but to destory india you will need many more.

    another thing that people dont under stand is that pakistan is out numbered in every way.

    for every 1 pakistani soldier india has 2.
    for every 1 pakistani tank india has 2 or 3.
    for every 1 pakistani fighter jet india has 2 or 3.
    for every 1 pakistani special forces india has 2.

    the only reson why pakistan survived in the past is becuase pakistani troops where better trianned then the indian troops.

    now the only thing that is basically keeping pakistan alive is the nukes.

    india is trying to be a regonal superpower and pakistan is getting in its way becuase no one is taking inida seriously. think about it if france(small country) was taking on russia(big country) do you really think anyone would take russia as a serious superpower.

    india is already aggressive towards nearly all its surrounding countries it already been involved in conflicts with pakistan and also with china.

    why does every one think that the muslims "countries" always start the fights and are the aggressive ones, while the non-muslims always are the victims.

    take a look at what indians do to muslims.

    please read these links :
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1850424.stm
    http://www.paknews.org/letters.php?i...te1=2002-03-01
    http://dawn.com/2003/09/27/top15.htm
    Wells lets see Pakistan was harbaring al-qauda?! terrorists was in close contact with afgani regime hmm i wonder

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    Quote Originally Posted by LM1332
    Wells lets see Pakistan was harbaring al-qauda?! terrorists was in close contact with afgani regime hmm i wonder
    pakistan has actually been handing al-quaida terrorist over to america and other countries.

    you're saying that they had close contact with the afghan regime but america had an even closer contact with the afghan regime.

    don't you remeber history you're country actually armed them back in the day.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C49498%2C00.html
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3157366.stm
    http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapc...istan.arrests/

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    Quote Originally Posted by physio_sport
    what are you trying to say that india has the right for nukes but pakistan does not?
    Nope, never said that... don't put words in my mouth, it's a dirty filthy habit.

    I was responding to "Benches505"... he said Whey they get nukes, refering to muslims... I pointed out that Pakistan (a muslim country) in fact already has nukes.

    I did not comment about the Pakistani-India nuclear arms race or fights because I am not informed enough about that situation to comment about it, and quite frankly I don't not care about it.

    Red

  35. #35
    LM1332 Guest
    Not to hijact this thread but read this

    Attack one American and you attack all Americans" was once proclaimed by President Clinton. More recently, an Assistant Secretary for State proclaimed that the U. S. government always protects its citizens. These are ****ed lies and meaningless words. These words were not true in 1967 (when Israel deliberately attacked the USS LIBERTY,) and unfortunately, and in spite of these beautiful words, they are not even true today. Moreover, there is no such thing as justice.
    On that June day in 1967, the weather was beautiful... Clear and sunny, visibility unlimited... the LIBERTY, an elaborate state-of-the art intelligence gathering platform, was in international waters off the Gaza strip and was flying the Stars and Stripes. Israeli reconnaissance planes flew overhead for hours. Pilots and ship's crew waved to each other. Then, inexplicably, unmarked Israeli aircraft began attacking the ship.

    The defenseless LIBERTY radioed for help. Two aircraft carriers in the Med responded by launching fighter aircraft. Unbelievably, they were recalled by the White House. RADM Geis, then commanding the carriers in the Sixth Fleet, called Washington personally to confirm the order. SecDef McNamara came on the line, then President Johnson. Johnson indicated to Geis that the aircraft were to be returned, that he would not have his allies embarrassed, and that he didn't care who was killed or what was done to the ship. Geis, like any good sailor, recalled the aircraft.... if you want more follow the link

    http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/

  36. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
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    Land of milk and honey.
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    3,538
    So MilitiaGuy, Do Arabs that are Muslim belive in the old testament part of the bible? I guess even more specifically that part were Abraham at his wife's request slept with his Egyptian maid servant Hagar resulting in the birth of Ismael?

    Isn't Abraham considered the father of all three religions, Muslim, Christian, Judaism?

    And the decendents of Hagar and Ismael was the start of the Muslim population? Then Sarah had a baby named Isaac who was the basically the jewish line of decendents that the bible says God had a covenant with? Isn't it amazing that all three lines of religion start at this one point yet there is so much violence between people who are really the result of the same father, different mother's? So they are half-brothers?

  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by scottp999
    So MilitiaGuy, Do Arabs that are Muslim belive in the old testament part of the bible? I guess even more specifically that part were Abraham at his wife's request slept with his Egyptian maid servant Hagar resulting in the birth of Ismael?

    Isn't Abraham considered the father of all three religions, Muslim, Christian, Judaism?

    And the decendents of Hagar and Ismael was the start of the Muslim population? Then Sarah had a baby named Isaac who was the basically the jewish line of decendents that the bible says God had a covenant with? Isn't it amazing that all three lines of religion start at this one point yet there is so much violence between people who are really the result of the same father, different mother's? So they are half-brothers?
    Muslims belive that the Old Testament is the work of GOD, which was corruputed and changed by humans to suite their needs.

    Muslims consider the Torah, Bible, Book of Psalms, and the Koran the books of GOD, the true GOD, but the Koran is the unedited and perfected word of GOD, the rest were changed by man.

    And yes that story you said is true, you know, sibling rivalry is always the most bitter.

  38. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Land of milk and honey.
    Posts
    3,538
    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Muslims belive that the Old Testament is the work of GOD, which was corruputed and changed by humans to suite their needs.

    Muslims consider the Torah, Bible, Book of Psalms, and the Koran the books of GOD, the true GOD, but the Koran is the unedited and perfected word of GOD, the rest were changed by man.

    And yes that story you said is true, you know, sibling rivalry is always the most bitter.
    Thanks for the reply. Things are complicated. Lots of hatred. We might not be the same religion but I bet we both believe all this violence won't stop until the true God returns someday!

    I wonder what would happen if all the participants on this thread were sitting in a room together? Would things remain civil?

    "And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey: unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites."

    -- Exodus 3: 8

    Basically telling Moses he will bring him to Palestine the land promised to Abraham? (Genesis 12) and then onto Jacob from Isaac (Genesis 28)?

    Very interesting so do Muslims believe that man, specifically Jewish people changed genesis to favor Jewish people and exclude his other son from Hagar?

    Whats even more interesting is that Hagar is promised innumerable children and actually the only women in all of Hebrew scripture to receive personally the divine blessing of decendents. She is also the only person in the Hebrew bible to ever call God by name.

    And she is the start of the decendents that are the Islamic population. Hmm.
    Last edited by scottp999; 05-30-2004 at 03:24 PM.

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by scottp999
    Thanks for the reply. Things are complicated. Lots of hatred. We might not be the same religion but I bet we both believe all this violence won't stop until the true God returns someday!
    Well, Muslims belive Jesus not GOD will come down on the Day of Judgement along with the Amir, who will be a military leader. There are different accounts as to where Jesus will return from, but from what I have read it is either Syria or Saudi Arabia. Islamic Scholars might know more on that.

    Very interesting so do Muslims believe that man, specifically Jewish people changed genesis to favor Jewish people and exclude his other son from Hagar?
    Well Muslims belive all the works, like the Bible, First Testament, and the Book of Psalms are all GOD's work, but no one really knows what humans have changed and what they havent, only GOD know.

    Whats even more interesting is that Hagar is promised innumerable children and actually the only women in all of Hebrew scripture to receive personally the divine blessing of decendents. She is also the only person in the Hebrew bible to ever call God by name.

    And she is the start of the decendents that are the Islamic population. Hmm.
    Interesting, I didnt know that. The Koran challanges a Muslim to read the Torah and the Bible, and recommends it. I have read parts of the Bible, and hope to read the whole book some day.

  40. #40
    Although I am not a conspiracy theorist, there is much more information about the 9/11 attacks and Israeli knowledge and involvement that the world doesnt know about.

    Read this, straight from ABC News that was not covered extensively.

    _________________________________________

    The White Van
    Were Israelis Detained on Sept. 11 Spies?



    June 21 — Millions saw the horrific images of the World Trade Center attacks, and those who saw them won't forget them. But a New Jersey homemaker saw something that morning that prompted an investigation into five young Israelis and their possible connection to Israeli intelligence.

    Maria, who asked us not to use her last name, had a view of the World Trade Center from her New Jersey apartment building. She remembers a neighbor calling her shortly after the first plane hit the towers.
    She grabbed her binoculars and watched the destruction unfolding in lower Manhattan. But as she watched the disaster, something else caught her eye.

    Maria says she saw three young men kneeling on the roof of a white van in the parking lot of her apartment building. "They seemed to be taking a movie," Maria said.

    The men were taking video or photos of themselves with the World Trade Center burning in the background, she said. What struck Maria were the expressions on the men's faces. "They were like happy, you know … They didn't look shocked to me. I thought it was very strange," she said.

    She found the behavior so suspicious that she wrote down the license plate number of the van and called the police. Before long, the FBI was also on the scene, and a statewide bulletin was issued on the van.

    The plate number was traced to a van owned by a company called Urban Moving. Around 4 p.m. on Sept. 11, the van was spotted on a service road off Route 3, near New Jersey's Giants Stadium. A police officer pulled the van over, finding five men, between 22 and 27 years old, in the vehicle. The men were taken out of the van at gunpoint and handcuffed by police.

    The arresting officers said they saw a lot that aroused their suspicion about the men. One of the passengers had $4,700 in cash hidden in his sock. Another was carrying two foreign passports. A box cutter was found in the van. But perhaps the biggest surprise for the officers came when the five men identified themselves as Israeli citizens.


    ‘We Are Not Your Problem’

    According to the police report, one of the passengers told the officers they had been on the West Side Highway in Manhattan "during the incident" — referring to the World Trade Center attack. The driver of the van, Sivan Kurzberg, told the officers, "We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem." The other passengers were his brother Paul Kurzberg, Yaron Shmuel, Oded Ellner and Omer Marmari.

    When the men were transferred to jail, the case was transferred out of the FBI's Criminal Division, and into the bureau's Foreign Counterintelligence Section, which is responsible for espionage cases, ABCNEWS has learned.

    One reason for the shift, sources told ABCNEWS, was that the FBI believed Urban Moving may have been providing cover for an Israeli intelligence operation.

    After the five men were arrested, the FBI got a warrant and searched Urban Moving's Weehawken, N.J., offices.

    The FBI searched Urban Moving's offices for several hours, removing boxes of documents and a dozen computer hard drives. The FBI also questioned Urban Moving's owner. His attorney insists that his client answered all of the FBI's questions. But when FBI agents tried to interview him again a few days later, he was gone.

    Three months later 2020's cameras photographed the inside of Urban Moving, and it looked as if the business had been shut down in a big hurry. Cell phones were lying around; office phones were still connected; and the property of dozens of clients remained in the warehouse.

    The owner had also cleared out of his New Jersey home, put it up for sale and returned with his family to Israel.


    ‘A Scary Situation’

    Steven Gordon, the attorney for the five Israeli detainees, acknowledged that his clients' actions on Sept. 11 would easily have aroused suspicions. "You got a group of guys that are taking pictures, on top of a roof, of the World Trade Center. They're speaking in a foreign language. They got two passports on 'em. One's got a wad of cash on him, and they got box cutters. Now that's a scary situation."

    But Gordon insisted that his clients were just five young men who had come to America for a vacation, ended up working for a moving company, and were taking pictures of the event.

    The five Israelis were held at the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, ostensibly for overstaying their tourist visas and working in the United States illegally. Two weeks after their arrest, an immigration judge ordered them to be deported. But sources told ABCNEWS that FBI and CIA officials in Washington put a hold on the case.

    The five men were held in detention for more than two months. Some of them were placed in solitary confinement for 40 days, and some of them were given as many as seven lie-detector tests.


    Plenty of Speculation

    Since their arrest, plenty of speculation has swirled about the case, and what the five men were doing that morning. Eventually, The Forward, a respected Jewish newspaper in New York, reported the FBI concluded that two of the men were Israeli intelligence operatives.

    Vince Cannistraro, a former chief of operations for counterterrorism with the CIA who is now a consultant for ABCNEWS, said federal authorities' interest in the case was heightened when some of the men's names were found in a search of a national intelligence database.


    Israeli Intelligence Connection?

    According to Cannistraro, many people in the U.S. intelligence community believed that some of the men arrested were working for Israeli intelligence. Cannistraro said there was speculation as to whether Urban Moving had been "set up or exploited for the purpose of launching an intelligence operation against radical Islamists in the area, particularly in the New Jersey-New York area."

    Under this scenario, the alleged spying operation was not aimed against the United States, but at penetrating or monitoring radical fund-raising and support networks in Muslim communities like Paterson, N.J., which was one of the places where several of the hijackers lived in the months prior to Sept. 11.

    For the FBI, deciphering the truth from the five Israelis proved to be difficult. One of them, Paul Kurzberg, refused to take a lie-detector test for 10 weeks — then failed it, according to his lawyer. Another of his lawyers told us Kurzberg had been reluctant to take the test because he had once worked for Israeli intelligence in another country.

    Sources say the Israelis were targeting these fund-raising networks because they were thought to be channeling money to Hamas and Islamic Jihad, groups that are responsible for most of the suicide bombings in Israel. "[The] Israeli government has been very concerned about the activity of radical Islamic groups in the United States that could be a support apparatus to Hamas and Islamic Jihad," Cannistraro said.

    The men denied that they had been working for Israeli intelligence out of the New Jersey moving company, and Ram Horvitz, their Israeli attorney, dismissed the allegations as "stupid and ridiculous."

    Mark Regev, the spokesman for the Israeli Embassy in Washington, goes even further, asserting the issue was never even discussed with U.S. officials.

    "These five men were not involved in any intelligence operation in the United States, and the American intelligence authorities have never raised this issue with us," Regev said. "The story is simply false."


    No ‘Pre-Knowledge’

    Despite the denials, sources tell ABCNEWS there is still debate within the FBI over whether or not the young men were spies. Many U.S. government officials still believe that some of them were on a mission for Israeli intelligence. But the FBI told ABCNEWS, "To date, this investigation has not identified anybody who in this country had pre-knowledge of the events of 9/11."

    Sources also said that even if the men were spies, there is no evidence to conclude they had advance knowledge of the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11. The investigation, at the end of the day, after all the polygraphs, all of the field work, all the cross-checking, the intelligence work, concluded that they probably did not have advance knowledge of 9/11," Cannistraro noted.

    As to what they were doing on the van, they say they read about the attack on the Internet, couldn't see it from their offices and went to the parking lot for a better view. But no one has been able to find a good explanation for why they may have been smiling with the towers of the World Trade Center burning in the background. Both the lawyers for the young men and the Israeli Embassy chalk it up to immature conduct.

    According to ABCNEWS sources, Israeli and U.S. government officials worked out a deal — and after 71 days, the five Israelis were taken out of jail, put on a plane, and deported back home.

    While the former detainees refused to answer ABCNEWS' questions about their detention and what they were doing on Sept. 11, several of the detainees discussed their experience in America on an Israeli talk show after their return home.

    Said one of the men, denying that they were laughing or happy on the morning of Sept. 11, "The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event."

    ABCNEWS' Chris Isham, John Miller, Glenn Silber and Chris Vlasto contributed to this report.

    ________________________________________

    Mossads motto is "War through Deception", I will tell Americans, there is much more to the 9/11 saga, many people dont know about.

    http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/...an_020621.html

    http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/...an_020621.html

    http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/...an_020621.html
    Last edited by CAUSASIAN; 05-31-2004 at 07:08 AM.

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