A Different Take on Clomid and Nolvadex

[Ajax]

I saw this post over on BodyBuilding.com and thought I would stir things up a bit.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catnolv.htm

Clomid as an anti-estrogen?

HCG and Nolvadex to restore testicular function post cycle?

I know there are some pople here that will have some opinions about this... Have fun debating!

[Dr.Evil]

that guy is not well informed. i'm going to register on that board right now and have a discussion with big cat. watch the flames fly as a newbie with 1 post tries to confront a moderator there

anyway, to argue against his point, nolvadex alone would not be effective for a post cycle treatment. i don't know how the hell he thinks it would be. his basic idea is right in that estrogen production is raised post cycle and that this estrogen inhibits natural test production, but all nolva does is prevent the estrogen from binding to the estrogen receptors. it doesn't lower estrogen levels in the body at all.

[Methuselah]

Absolutely incorrect information about everything, except that Nolva is more powerful than Clomid as an anti-e. Clomid is a light anti-e and brings up natural test levels, nolva is a heavy anti-e and does not bring up test levels. HCG also brings up test levels.

I can't wait for Dr. Evil to debate this person.

[Dr.Evil]

ok i posted it up there, but no one has responded yet...

[Methuselah]

Nice post.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...threadid=21805

[vanjag]

Dr. Evil...

Just to add to your statement over at bb.com when you said:

"estrogen is an easier biochemical step to get to. perhaps big cat can go into more detail with that. "

I agree with you, but that is not the only reason. Since you actually have more than normal testosterone levels in your serum, it will exert negative feedback to the hypothalamus and it will not stimulate the pituitary, which in turn will not stimulate the testes. So your natual test production will halt. In the same time, you have aromatisation taking place, but not only that, since you probably know that in the adrenal gland there is also posibility to produce steroid hormones, and some of the newly produced estrogen is coming from there.

Just wanted to add to your otherwise very true statement, so that you can educate those friends at bb.com further.

V

[JP1570]

Evil, they're trying to steal you. Stay at AR!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ajax]

Hahahaha. As soon as I saw that post at BB.com, I knew that Dr. Evil would be quick to leap into the fray...

Don't worry about Dr. Evil leaving for BB.com; they have soem good stuff there, but I think he can only find the intellectual challenge he needs here...

[Dr.Evil]

bb.com is sketchy... kinda reminds me of the fascists at s&w

vanjag, thanks for your input. maybe you can join in our discussion on that thread.

[nymattyk]

wow, that site just looks like a bunch of misinformed and uneducated people willing to take advice from anyone with a moderator title and more than 1000 posts. thanks, but ill stay right here

[arthurb999]

I had a similar discussion with BigCat. It was like 3 pages long!

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...9&pagenumber=1

[eradikate]

Doc don't leave man!! stay at AR!!

[Methuselah]

He's going to get frustrated and ban Dr.Evil pretty soon. He just can't keep up with Evil's intellect.

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Methuselah
He's going to get frustrated and ban Dr.Evil pretty soon. He just can't keep up with Evil's intellect.

lol. i woldn't be too suprised. big cat has a serious ego problem.

he slammed on our friend arthur999 in that other thread "Look shithead, either you live with the facts or you leave the board.... unlike you most educated folk in this world will take a controlled peer reviewed study over the opinion of an anonymous halfwit anyday."

let's see what he says about all the peer reviewed studies that he chose to ignore like an "anonymous halfwit."

[arthurb999]

Thanks Dr. Evil. I couldn't believe what I was reading. This guy is a mod and telling people off like that. Not to mention, I don't think he knows what he is talking about. After all, according to "my" thread, he's never even done a cycle.

[9natural9]

that is greatness, funny funny stuff.....it is like Good Will Hunting but with a steroid twist, AWESOME

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by 9natural9
that is greatness, funny funny stuff.....it is like Good Will Hunting but with a steroid twist, AWESOME

lol.

[JP1570]

Let's send DOOFY over there.

[gettinthere]

Dr. Evil, Meth,
You guys are awesome.
Dr., where is that scene in your avatar from? The third A.P. isn't out yet is it?

[latman49]

Those guys at BB.com have short fuses. I just registered and posted and backed you up Dr. Evil. I told them you know your stuff and to never doubt you. Maybe if enough people from AR back you, they will start to listen.

[Dr.Evil]

thanks for your backing latman

i'd hate to make it look like i just brought my whole posse to overtake that board though

the discussion would go so much better if big cat weren't so arrogant about everything. calling arthur an "anonymous halfwit" wasn't cool.

[9natural9]

just posted the Good Will Hunting analogy

[Dr.Evil]

btw, that avatar is from austin powers 3.

[quasar]

i'm reading the post at bb.com, this is great stuff. Doc, you are the F'N MAN.

[BOZZ]

Well, I've read Dr. Evils posts at BB.com, and completely agree with him and hell i'm a member over there. The thing is this is going to turn into a big pissing match between big cat and dr evil. The facts have been stated, and hey maybe nolvadex post cycle would work but i'm not going to try it and we still excourage people to go the clomid route over at BB.com. As for BB.com being sketchy, yeah some of the mods over there have pretty big ego's BUT, big vince Spock,and shot do an excellent job of moderating the steroid section and the bros over there have a vast array of knowledge. It would be great if we could all get along to further our sport and our bodies.

[Methuselah]

I'm sure that I'm no longer welcome there. Here was my final post on the topic.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Big Cat in a previous discussion
Look shithead, either you live with the facts or you leave the board.... unlike you most educated folk in this world will take a controlled peer reviewed study over the opinion of an anonymous halfwit anyday.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So the person who yells the loudest wins? I still must agree with Dr.Evil. I'm sorry that you were embarrassed. I know that you're normally the top dog around here and that you're used to people believing whatever bullshit that spews from your pie hole.

I'm out of here.


__________________
See you at the top!

[9natural9]

LMAO

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by BOZZ
Well, I've read Dr. Evils posts at BB.com, and completely agree with him and hell i'm a member over there. The thing is this is going to turn into a big pissing match between big cat and dr evil. The facts have been stated, and hey maybe nolvadex post cycle would work but i'm not going to try it and we still excourage people to go the clomid route over at BB.com. As for BB.com being sketchy, yeah some of the mods over there have pretty big ego's BUT, big vince Spock,and shot do an excellent job of modding the steroid section and the bros over there have a vast array of knowledge. It would be great if we could all get along to further our sport and our bodies.

SHOT is a good friend of mine (although he would not be familiar with my current username "dr.evil.") i know he would do a great job moderating that board. as for big cat, he's obviously very knowledgeable, but he could use an ego check...

[Iron horse]

Holy shit, what a show down!! this is bigger than the tyson vs. lewis!!

[arthurb999]

Originally posted by johan
But I doubt that big cat would lie about trying nolva therapy on his clients so do you guys think it can work?

On his clients?!? What does this guy do? btw, I feel bad for his clients

[Methuselah]

Let's all slap Evil a big high five.

[Dr.Evil]

i'll be going to belgium for a convention in late april. i wouldn't mind making a detour to check out big cat's "clients."

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by johan
I wonder how BC will respond to your latest posts.

the same way he responds to everything...

[arthurb999]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil


the same way he responds to everything...

That guy is a douche-bag!

[Methuselah]

It's ugly over there.

[Iwan2bsolid2]

Damn, what an informative post. Glad to have a Vet like Dr. Evil around here. YOu know you shit brother. Lots of respect your way my friend.

SOLID

[Paranoid]

I think that Big Cat is full of shit, I asked him about keeping gains from a Deca only cycle, considering that proper Clomid therapy is utilized and he relied as follows

"4.If you are looking for gains to maintain, EQ is not your best choice but still a lot better choice than Deca. Once in a blue moon will you retain decent gains from Deca. First of all the severe bloat, meaning most of the gains is water. Secondly its affinity to re-esterify and stay in the body for up to 1.5 years, making it very suppressive of natural testosterone. Without natural test its hard to maintain gains post-cycle, making Deca by far your worst choice in this regard. hell, you'd retain more off D-bol or Anadrol than you would off Deca. Gains are best maintained on short-acting, low-estrogenic compounds. The only compound that meets that criteria without being overly androgenic is Winny."

Furthermore; (comments on a hair loss thread)

Big Cat
The People's Moderator

Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Belgium
Posts: 3998
What the **** ? You have your steroids backwards bro. Test is hard on hair loss. D-bol, A-bombs and Winny are some of the mildest products on hair loss. Both oxymetholone and methandrostenolone have very poor androgen binding. Methandrostenolone is made from boldenone. Boldenone is half as androgenic as test, and has next to no 5-alpha reductase conversion. That means in practice, its about 15% as hard on hair loss as test. To make methandrostenolone they attach a 17-alpha-methyl group, which decreases androgenic binding as well. That means its milder on hair loss than Deca. Same with Anadrol. Winny is a little rougher on hair loss, since its a 5-alpha-reduced compound, but its the only non-aromatizing compound that is as mild as it is, due to the lack of 3-keto group.

The hardest steroid on the hair is testosterone.

Cycle looks pretty good for gains.


__________________
Good things come to those who weight.



Dr. Evil you have to set this bro straight!!!!!!!!!!!!
He is really fucking with the minds of newbies and his advise can have some very deleterious consequences for naive readers.

[Methuselah]

Don't take his advice. I just go there to piss him off. Check out this thread...

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...680#post204680

Originally posted by Guy
I have some joint pain.I was wondering if I get a cortisol shot in the knee, will it affect my cycle?I'll be getting the shot while i'm on my precontest cycle.

Originally posted by Big Cat
cortisol is a fat loss agent, so no. On top of that it doesn't spread out very well, which is why cortisol is given in infiltrations. It shouldn't affect anything other than your knee.

Originally posted by Guy
Thanx!

-Guy

Originally posted by Methuselah
Cortisol is a steroid hormone that is released from the zona fasciculata of the adrenal cortex in response to stress. The stressors that stimulate the release of this glucocorticoid hormone may be any number of things such as drastic changes in temperature, heavy exercising or even falling in love. Cortisol is considered to be such a reliable indicator of stress upon a system that many physiologists define stress as an event that elicits increased levels of cortisol.

The mechanism by which cortisol is released begins with the hypothalamus. The hypothalamus receives input about stressors affecting the system and transfers this information in the form of a chemical called corticotropin-releasing hormone (CRH). The CRH travels through a portal vessel to the anterior pituitary gland where it stimulates the release of adrenocorticotrophic hormone (ACTH). The ACTH is then circulated to the adrenal cortex where it stimulates the production and release of cortisol. Once secreted into the general circulation cortisol inhibits the release of and sensitivity to CRH thereby establishing a negative-feedback control over the system (see figure 1). The actual effects of cortisol on an organism is to alter metabolic functioning and the body's immunity response.

Increased cortisol levels alter organic metabolism in a number of ways. There is an increased mobilization of amino acids from protein stores in extrahepatic cells (non-liver cells). There is also an increase in transport of these amino acids to the liver. The liver converts these amino acids to glucose through a process called gluconeogenesis, and also uses them to increase production of plasma proteins. The increase in cortisol levels also serves to mobilize fatty acids from adipose tissues in an attempt to shift cells the metabolic systems from the utilization of glucose for energy and to the utilization of fatty acids instead. Separate from it's metabolic function increased levels of cortisol serve to suppress the immune system. This is achieved by decreasing the production of lymphocytes (especially T cells) and antibodies. Suppressing the immune system may be helpful in reducing some of the damaging effects of the immune response, for example cortisol is thought to help lower a fever. Finally cortisol is also capable of repressing the inflammatory response. Damaged cells release chemicals from their lysosomes that activate the inflammatory response. Cortisol is thought to prevent this activation by stabilizing the lysosomes of damaged cells preventing the release of the initiating chemicals.

The action of cortisol has many significant medical implications. For diabetics more insulin may be required when they are under stress to cope with the increase blood glucose levels. Surgeons need to be aware that the protein catabolism of their patients may increase due to the stressfulness of their situation. Cortisol ability to suppress the immune response may be exploited clinically to treat various inflammatory conditions such as allergies and arthritis. Cortisol may also be used in organ transplant operations to reduce the chance of organ rejection.

Although cortisol is not essential for life it helps an organism to cope more efficiently with it's environment.

References

Guyton, A.C. and J.E. Hall. 1996 Textbook of Medical Physiology. Ninth Edition. W.B. Saunders, Philadelphia.

Vander, A.J., J.H. Sherman and D.S. Luciano. 1994. Human Physiology. Sixth edition. McGraw-Hill Inc. New York.


Cortisone is an anti-inflammatory and will cause muscle loss, certainly it will inhibit gains because it decreases utilization of glucose, breaks down proteins, and decreases protein synthesis.

cortisone
See also: Biographies Chemistry
(kôr´tison), steroid hormone whose main physiological effect is on carbohydrate metabolism. It is synthesized from cholesterol in the outer layer, or cortex, of the adrenal gland under the stimulation of adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH). Cortisone is classed as a glucocorticoid with cortisol and corticosterone ; its effects include increased glucose release from the liver, increased liver glycogen synthesis, and decreased utilization of glucose by the tissues. These actions tend to counter the effects of insulin and may aggravate or mimic diabetes in sufficiently high doses. Cortisone also exerts an effect on salt retention in the kidneys similar to that of aldosterone , although it is not as potent. The hormone causes increased breakdown of proteins and decreased protein synthesis, and large doses given over a long period of time may result in inhibited growth in children or weakening of bones and wasting of muscles in adults. The principal medical use of cortisone comes from its anti-inflammatory and antiallergic effects; it is extremely useful in the treatment of innumerable diseases including asthma and other allergic reactions, arthritis, and various skin diseases. Cortisone is necessary to maintain life and enable the organism to respond to stress; failure of the adrenal glands to synthesize cortisone (Addison's disease) or surgical removal of the adrenals is fatal unless cortisone is given as replacement therapy. Although less cortisone is manufactured in the body than either cortisol or corticosterone and although cortisone is less potent than cortisol, the term cortisone is often used collectively to include the other glucocorticoids, both the naturally occurring and the synthetic compounds such as prednisone. Small quantities of cortisone were first isolated from animal adrenals in 1935-36. A method of manufacture, involving laboratory synthesis from an acid of bile , was developed, and in 1949 cortisone was first offered commercially. The specific mechanisms by which cortisone and similar compounds act are still poorly understood.

Originally posted by Big Cat
Looks like a physiology book. Do me a favour, pass that on to Dr.Evil and show him the chapter on the test cycle and where GnRH and LH fit in exactly.

Originally posted by Methuselah
Does it fairly decribe cortisol and its function?

[Methuselah]

I Won this one! I can't believe it.

Originally posted by Big Cat
yes, copy it in another thread and I'll even bump it. Its a good profile of cortisol. Even better, its a great profile.

However, don't forget that local cortisone infiltrations do not spread out well. SO catabolic results in that regard would not affect the body as a whole.

[Dr.Evil]

lol good job meth.

i can't believe he says test is the hardest on hair... did he forget dht is a steroid?

he should try steroids himself before saying you can keep more gains from deca than anadrol.