vitamin c and cortisol(anyone upp for a experiment)

[DBarcelo]

I'm not doubting that it wasn't said. But you can't believe everything that everyone says or everything that you read. 50 grams is a heck of a lot of vitamin C to be pumping into the human body. At that level, liver damage is almost certain and kidney damage almost certain. You could cause a blockage of the entire urinary tract. That's just crazy. If it's short term (one or two days) and it's to counteract some major major free radicals, then maybe, possibly but even then not likely. The pancrease would be effected also.

[Kärnfysikern]

DBarcelo plz read this page and give me your input. Also are you familiar with Dr Thomas Levy?

http://www.bodyofscience.com/issues/...5_poliquin.pdf

Poliquin is like hooker said one of the top trainers in the world and a very bright guy. Are you 100% certain that the method of mega dosing vitamin c iv is harmfull to organs? Poliuqin seems to think its harmless and Dr Levy has written books on disease curation with vitamin c(he mentiones the polio thing for instance).

[IronFreakX]

hey johan what do u think 10grams spread thru out the day or what?

[IronFreakX]

for 6 weeks

heyyy if smth goes wrong with my kidneys im taking yours ok ?

[Kärnfysikern]

I guess my kidneys will be equaly ****ed lol. Start with 5 I recon. Bump it to 10 after 2 weeks if you feel comfortable with it. Keep water high as hell and dont exceed 6 weeks. Im guessing this couldnt do any permanent damage
I will guinne pig higher dosage since I have ran high dosage before.

[IronFreakX]

dude i aint gonna run sissy doses 5-10 mgs while ur run who knows how much and get all the benifits how much r u gonna run? gonna run the same amount as u

[Kärnfysikern]

lol Im not sure bro. Im gonna start at 5grams and then increase it until I get diharrea. Since diharrea is a sign that ascorbic acid is reaching the digestiv track so most free radicals are already neutralised.

On workout days I will put half the vitamin c in the water I drink during the workout and the other half in my pwo shake. On rest days Im gonna spread it over the day to make sure cortisol is supressed for as long as possible.

[IronFreakX]

doesnt vitamin c leave the body after 12 hours or smth? do we need we to take it thru out the day or are 2 time enough

[Kärnfysikern]

There is time release vitamin c pills that is suposed to spread the dosage over the day. otherwise I think it has a short halflife Il look it upp.

[DBarcelo]

DBarcelo plz read this page and give me your input. Also are you familiar with Dr Thomas Levy?

http://www.bodyofscience.com/issues/...5_poliquin.pdf

Poliquin is like hooker said one of the top trainers in the world and a very bright guy. Are you 100% certain that the method of mega dosing vitamin c iv is harmfull to organs? Poliuqin seems to think its harmless and Dr Levy has written books on disease curation with vitamin c(he mentiones the polio thing for instance).

I didn't read the whole thing, but one of the first things I read was that this isn't a daily thing. He's doing the infusion once a week, maybe twice a week (he's saying a MAXIMUM of a few times a week). That's still dangerous, but not nearly as dangerous as doing it daily (as everyone here is talking about). He also says that it has to be applied the right way. Like I said before, the best time would be after the workout. If you want to test something on yourself, buy a gallon of OJ and drink it all, then wait a few minutes and then try to lift a heavy barbell or dumbell (nothing that you hold over your body). You will experience one of the worse sensations you've ever felt in your life. That's what happens when you have too much vitamin C in your system when you try to work out. Then you'll get my point. And remember that the entire gallon of OJ only gives you a couple of grams of vitamin C. As far as the kidney stones go, either stay on a high vitamin C diet for a while and see what happens or do a simple search on the internet. I'm sure you'll find info about Vitamin C induced kidney stones (which are difficult to prevent by simply drinking water). You can do a search on Cystine kidney stones (there are different causes of kidney stones and cystine is the name of the ones caused by vitamin C over dose.

[IronFreakX]

. If you want to test something on yourself, buy a gallon of OJ and drink it all, then wait a few minutes and then try to lift a heavy barbell or dumbell (nothing that you hold over your body). You will experience one of the worse sensations you've ever felt in your life. That's what happens when you have too much vitamin C in your system when you try to work out. .

hmm a gallon of oj would make ne1 feel like shit the inslulin response and too much fluid @ once im trying the 10-20 grs a day ill post results

[Kärnfysikern]

Dbarcelo I have consumed over 5 grams of vitamin c in pill form before workouts withou any problem at all so either I dont notice that or something else was going on.
I also for a time used to mix down 3 grams of vitamin c in the water I drank during the workout and I feelt nothing. If anything those where some of my best workouts this spring.

But to be safe maby its best to use the high ammounts on the workout days and much less on rest days. The kidney stone thing might be hard to avoid but aslong as one doesnt get diharrea Im assuming almost all the vitamin c is getting broken down my free radicals is that a correct assumption??

[Kärnfysikern]

One of my main concerns is how acidic ascorbic acid is. How do you think alot of ascorbic acid would effect my stomach since I am prone to ulcer/katharr? Does it have a very low ph?

[IronFreakX]

the only solution i can find bout acidity is to have it with a pro/fat meal maybe ??

[Kärnfysikern]

Or a otc antiacid along with it maby.

[DBarcelo]

With cycstine stones, diarrhea is not going to normally be an issue. Diarrhea is just the most common side effect to Vitamin C supplimentation.

[DBarcelo]

Dbarcelo I have consumed over 5 grams of vitamin c in pill form before workouts withou any problem at all so either I dont notice that or something else was going on.
I also for a time used to mix down 3 grams of vitamin c in the water I drank during the workout and I feelt nothing. If anything those where some of my best workouts this spring.

But to be safe maby its best to use the high ammounts on the workout days and much less on rest days. The kidney stone thing might be hard to avoid but aslong as one doesnt get diharrea Im assuming almost all the vitamin c is getting broken down my free radicals is that a correct assumption??

Depending on the type of pill, 5 grams is only going to yeald about 3 grams in your body. The C you mix in your water isn't going to yeald much at all depending on the type of water you mix it in. Tap water in different areas have different aditives that can leave a lot of the C inactive and most bottled water has sodium in it, that can break down the Vitamin C.

[IronFreakX]

is distilled water the best choice then ??

[Kärnfysikern]

Ohh didnt know that about water. The swedish tap water is know to be very clean and very low on additives, but not free of them offcourse. Like crystal asked would destilled water be the best choise?

I read a study that suggest OJ contains substances that increase vitamin c absorbation. Would it be a good idea to mix the ascorbic acid powder in a bit of OJ and consume it like that post workout? Also how would the consumption of a anti acid at the same time effect the absorbation of the ascorbic acid?

Can you by the way recomend any books about vitamins and minerals in general that is very informative without beeing to filled with medical terms that is hard to comprehend for a regular person. It doesnt have to be "vitamins for dummys" lol I can most of the time get a firm grasp on what most means if I put my mind into it. But nothing to advanced to start with.

I have read some stuff by Sanna Edhin(swedish imunology proffesor that is a bit famous over there to becuase of the book "the selfhealing human") But the things she writes is almost to basic.

[IronFreakX]

Hey johan check these out
-vitamins: http://s31.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3...H1ES5Q5JJ8NYCI
-herbs : http://s31.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0...R3B2Q6CN4LZY55

itll only be there for a week tho ........

[Kärnfysikern]

just downloaded them. Will read them when I get home on monday If you got anymore I would be glad to read it.

[IronFreakX]

do u have the complete idiots guide to vitamins and minerals? its bout 450 pages??

[IronFreakX]

but the author is a bit of an idiot tho

[Kärnfysikern]

lol nope I dont have that one. I have just recently started to read about this stuff so havent had time to purchase books.
Do you have it on pdf?

[IronFreakX]

yeah i do
ill uplload the link and post its 11.8 mb btw

[IronFreakX]

http://s31.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0...W1IRMPUU8ODYYZ

here it is

[Kärnfysikern]

thanks bro

[IronFreakX]

no problem

[DBarcelo]

Sorry I wasn't able to get back to you guys. Distilled water isn't needed. There are a couple of brands that don't add salt, Nevia and Apalacia I think are the two.

[Kärnfysikern]

Unfortunlay I never buy botteled water. Since the tap water quality is so high in sweden there is no need. So for me should I continue with tap water or buy destilled? Dont know if those 2 brands you mention exists here

[Prime]

johan what was your experience of water loss when taking 5+grams a day. I was reccomended to take vit C instead of dandelion root as a duiretic when i compete. I have been taking it at about 4 grams the last two days to see if it has any effect but havent really experinced anything apart from im really hungry today (but im cutting so thats nothing new). Having read this whole thread im really not sure about taking higher doses and will prob look for something else to take.

[IronFreakX]

i take 2-4 grams everyday

prime...up ur dosage to 10g thru out the day and see wut happens....the max id take would be around 20g for 2 weeks max!

dont know which stage ur in rite now(water intake...)but with these kinda grams u gotta be drinking a shit load of water....

[Kärnfysikern]

I didnt realy think much about how much water I had on my body then. When thinking back I probably lost some water since I weighted less but I ate like shit and didnt think about much else other then getting healthy again.

[yannick32]

Guess i will stick with my 3g a day if i am lucky i might grow taller too maybe half an inch by the time i reach 50. LOL

[Money Boss Hustla]

This thread is very interesting.

I'm not sure if I could do much more than 2G's. I would be pissing fire from the acidity.

[Kärnfysikern]

mbh it depends on what form of ascorbic acid you take. if its bound to the right mineral its more or less ph neutral i recon.

[Kärnfysikern]

this is a quote from ABC of nutrition(fourth edition).

At high intakes urinary excretion of oxalate (which
is a metabolite of ascorbate) increases somewhat. Although oxalate is a common component of urinary tract stones, large epidemiological studies have not found more cases of stones in people who take vitamin C supplements. 7

Truswell, A. Stewart(Author). ABC of Nutrition (Fourth Edition).
London, , GBR: BMJ Publishing Group, 2003. p 64.
http://site.ebrary.com/lib/linkoping...0049684&ppg=72

Copyright © 2003. BMJ Publishing Group. All rights reserved.

[IronFreakX]

yup true




ppl that used 1,500 mg of calcium had less re-occurances of getting stones , ppl that got low amounts 500 mg i think had more chances of stones developing

[Kärnfysikern]

Reading "Vitamin c and the common cold" written by Linus Pauling(the guy that more or less invented orthomolecular medicin if Im not misstaken and a nobel price winner in chemisty and in peace).

In his book he writes that he checked the ammounts of vitamins in 110 different raw plantfoods. He then calculated how much of the vitamins a fully grown man would get if he consumed those foods in the ammounts needed to cover his kcal needs(2500kcal).
He found that for the majority of vitamins the ammounts he would consume is about 3 times the daily recomended intake, but for ascorbic acid(vitamin c)its 40 times!! as much as what is recomended. Around 2,3grams/Day.

Since we evolved and are customed to eating like that then 2,3 grams should be considered a avarage dosage and would be perfectly safe.

All animals except a select few produces there own ascorbic acid in ammounts that would equal around 2-5grams/day for a grown human.

Both Pauling and Tom Levy seems to think that Ascorbic acid in almost any dosage is safe and Pauling quotes studies where a group of people where given 40grams/day for I think it was 3 or 4 months without ANY side effect and another group where given 100g/day for a week without any side effect.

Offcourse it might have given those people kidneystones later on that isnt covered. But there seems to be no imidiet health risk from megadosing ascorbic acid.

[Kärnfysikern]

THis is from a article published in "Journal of Applied Nutrition Vol. 23, No's 3 & 4, Winter 1971" written by "Frederick R. Klenner, M.D., F.C.C.P"

Maby this has been disproven since then but I doubt it since not much research has been done on high dosage ascorbic acid. Klenner along with Linus pauling and Irwin Stone was the leading experts back then on high dosage ascorbic acid as treatement for various conditions(the flue, polio, severe burns ect).

How concerned should we be about oxalic acid and kidney stones? A technical explanation.

One of the "scare" weapons used by the critics on high daily doses of ascorbic acid is the oxalic acid-kidney stone hypothesis. Meakins[36] states that the chief factors in the formation of renal calculi are perversions of metabolic processes, infection and stasis in the urinary tract. There are two schools of thought on stone formation: 1) That there is a central nucleus of colloids on which the crystalloids are precipitated; 2) That the crystalloids are deposited from the urine in which they are present in concentrated solution, in which salt and hydrogen ion concentrations are important factors. In all cases stasis and a concentrated urine appear to be the chief physiological factors. The only way that oxalic acid can be produced from ascorbic acid is through splitting of the lactone ring. This happens above pH5. The reaction of urine when 10 grams of vitamin C is taken daily is usually pH6. Oxalic acid precipitates out of solution only from a neutral or alkaline solution-pH7 to pH10. Kelli and Zilva[37] reported that "Nutrition experiments showed that dehydroascorbic acid is protected in vivo from rapid transformation to the antiscorbutically impotent diketogulonic acid from which oxalic acid is derived." Values reported in the literature for normal 24 hour urinary oxalate excretions for humans range from 14 mg to 56 mg. Lamden et al.[38] found in a group of volunteers that the ingestion of 9 grams ascorbic acid daily resulted in oxalate spills as high as 68 mg for 24 hours and in the controls without extra vitamin C the high was 64 mg for a 24 hour period.

These critics have overlooked the individual with diabetes mellitus. The amount of oxalic acid found in the diabetic patient approximates that found in the urine of a normal person taking 10 grams vitamin C each day. With the diabetic we find a paradox. Give this individual 10 grams ascorbic acid daily, by mouth, and the urinary oxalate excretion remains relatively unchanged. Diabetics are known for their diuresis. The individual who takes 10 or more grams of vitamin C each day will find that this organic compound is an excellent diuretic. No urinary stasis; no urine concentration.

The ascorbic acid kidney stone story is a myth. Methylene blue will dissolve calcium oxalate stones giving 65 mg orally 2 to 3 times a day. (Dr. M. J. Vernon Smith: Med. World News, Dec. 4, 1970)