Cycle advice (comments on first cycles, doses, eating, etc.)

[MIKE_XXL]

you've got tons of great info bask8kace, but here are some questions i have.
first of all, hooker has been showing refrences to his points where you have not. It seems you posted this info just as opinion because there is nothing to back up your claim about low dose cycles. Yeah, the may work for some people if they have a great diet as well, but I have heard only you, and a handful of people say they work where everyone else does 400-500mg of test a week. Also this quote here:



How do you know that 400mg a week will yeild 20-24 lbs in 10-12 weeks, and why do you specifically have "24" instead of a well rounded number like 25. Same for 250mg, you say it tends to yeild 15-20 lbs.

Now if there was evidence that low dose cycles would yeild these results to EVERYBODY who tries it, then there would be no need to do more than that. People do more than that because they feel if they only gain 15 lbs at the end of the cycle where they really wanted 20. So they will automatically start off with 400-500mg/week to get the most results. Not everyone here is able to have a really REALLY strict diet either because of jobs, school, income, and everything else in their personal life. I personally will never go over 600mg of test in my life. You might get a lot more followers if you said that anything over 500-600mg/week is worthless because no one wants to take their chances on the really low dose cycles. just my 2 cents

There is also no guarantee that you will gain more with higher doses either, the gains are mostly regulated by persons eating habits and intensity in the gym...gear is just a supporting player in this game, i know a ton of people who take lots of gear and look like a bag of shiat, why because they don't pay attention to their diets, i hate when people over simplify things and say more is beeter because that is a total bullsh1t...XXL

[Property of Steroid.com]

There is also no guarantee that you will gain more with higher doses either, the gains are mostly regulated by persons eating habits and intensity in the gym...gear is just a supporting player in this game, i know a ton of people who take lots of gear and look like a bag of shiat, why because they don't pay attention to their diets, i hate when people over simplify things and say more is beeter because that is a total bullsh1t...XXL

I think the point Wolfy was trying to make is not that more is necessarily better, but simply that in this particular thread, the abundance of scientifically supported evidence (actually, the only scientifically supported evidence in the thread; i.e. via peer-reviewed medical journals) has been presented by me...and (unless I'm reading too much into Wolfy's post) thus my various arguments would appear to be the most sound/valid in this thread.

In other words, I don't know if he is making a judgement on the merits of using more vs. using less, but rather a judgement on the arguments presented. Only by proxy is he making a judgement on doses.

[BASK8KACE]

I think the point Wolfy was trying to make is not that more is necessarily better, but simply that in this particular thread, the abundance of scientifically supported evidence (actually, the only scientifically supported evidence in the thread; i.e. via peer-reviewed medical journals) has been presented by me...and (unless I'm reading too much into Wolfy's post) thus my various arguments would appear to be the most sound/valid in this thread.

In other words, I don't know if he is making a judgement on the merits of using more vs. using less, but rather a judgement on the arguments presented. Only by proxy is he making a judgement on doses.

Since there aren't extensive tests and research available for every aspect of steroid use, there are boards like this through which we can share information and common experiences, theories etcetera. A person should defintely present studies whenever possible, especially when claiming things that may seem far-fetched. But, common experience and reasoning should not be discounted.

I'm glad you've presented your findings. I agree with the studies you've posted, however I do not agree with some of the conclusions you've drawn from those tests which are exaggerations of the conclusions of the actual studies.

My main point is that low dose cycles can create exceptional growth. Many people aren't aware that low dose cycles work as well as they do because too many people tell them "more is better" which is not always true.

[d.b]

I have been in this game 9 yrs and I have tried a lot of different amounts and I can say that the magic point for me is 500mg...Now everyone is different as we all know...so until you have tried different combinations you can't be certain how a cycle will turn out...jmho

peace

db

[Tedbear981]

I am here with Bask8kace...my first cycle was 250mg of sust per week for 10 weeks...gains 20lbs or so...many times after i have doubled, tripled and have gone as far as 2000mg per week, and my gains have cirtanly not multiplied in accordance to my dose

Your first cycle was the exact same as mine... I would not expect it to triple or quadruple because it was your first cycle!! That is the optimal time to gain because it is your bodys first experiance to AAS. My first cycle 250mg sus I gained 17 pounds ended up with 12, second cycle which was 500mg a week of sus i gained 32 pounds and kept 26! Gotta agree with hooker on this like most other drugs it is dose dependent! I happen to be in the medical field, If I gave a pt twice the dose of morphine it would have twice the effect, some people handle it better that others but it would still have twice the effect on anybody due to the amount in the bloodstream at one time. Its a medical fact that twice the dose twice the effect, there are some drugs that defy this rule but test is not one of them.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Gotta agree with hooker on this like most other drugs it is dose dependent! I happen to be in the medical field, If I gave a pt twice the dose of morphine it would have twice the effect, some people handle it better that others but it would still have twice the effect on anybody due to the amount in the bloodstream at one time. Its a medical fact that twice the dose twice the effect, there are some drugs that defy this rule but test is not one of them.

Right...testosterone produces an almost perfectly linear response curve from where it produces noticable effects, straight through a 600mg/week dose, and there's no evidence to suggest where it would taper off at any particular dose exceeding 600mgs/week.

Notably, anadrol produces no greater weight gain in studies examining 100mgs per day vs/ 150mgs per day. This is probably due to it's side effects on appetite, however, and not a reflection of it's anabolic actions, all things being equal.

[Two4the$$]

Now I'm asking for your opinion hooker ... as you've already stated there's not a study to support extended claims.

Based on your personal experience, and your observations of others

1. Where do the gains start slowing down in terms of mg? 1000mg? 1500mg?
2. At what dosage do you predict that sides will be worse than the potential increase in gains?
3. How long do you think a "heavy" cycle can be ran for before the body stops producing gains relative to the risks?

[Property of Steroid.com]

(These answers will vary a bit from person to person, but are based on my experience and educated speculation based on the available medical data, as well as talking to others over the past 8 years of my using AAS)

1. Probably between those two numbers, yeah...the gains slow down at a reat of inverted proportion ie. they are slower proportionate to the more you use somewhere ...probably (my speculation) tapering off to the point where 5grams/week is going to be equal to 6 grams eventually.

2. I'd say after 2 grams...but thats for me. I know someone who is on like...3g/week and hasn't suffered any noticable or unacceptable sides. He has what I would consider pretty mediocre genetics for bodybuilding purposes, but an astonishingly good set of genes to resist side effects from androgens, apparently.

3. About 2-3 years. Many professionals (some of whom I've met) who have gone through the amateur ranks back in the early 90's, just before IGF, GH, and 'Slin were really in use, stayed on for about 3-5 years prior to earning their procards. You can of course look at some mediocre professionals (Dave Fisher, etc...) who came off for decent amounts of time between contests, but better ones who at least were in the middle of the pack (Jason Arntz, etc...) came off for less than a month (if at all) every year. I doubt most come off for more than that now. However, I think it depends on goals versus what you consider "acceptable risk." I know people who stay on an "HRT-Dose" of 300mgs/week all year, and then see pretty good gains when they up it to 500mgs and add in another compound (maybe tren, or some anavar). For the average person ("I want to look good at the beach") I'd say that cycles shouldn't realistically go past 16 weeks or so, before they normalize their HPTA. For some women involved in the GDR sports doping program, they bailed out on cycles as low as 20mgs of Oral Turinabol per day. Jerzey was having some skin issues on her current cycle of Primo/Var, and was gonna bail on it...her var-only-cycle produced a little bit of skin issues on her last cycle, but nothing (that I personally found) unacceptable or that would be noticed by the average person (depending on what she was wearing, as it was only noticable at all on her back, if it was exposed). It depends on your sides, and what you think is an acceptable risk relative to your goals.

[stupidhippo]

Hooker do you know the explanmation for this. My physiology book says sumin to this direction: testosterone has a very strong anabolic effect in skeletal muscle but it seems to stop after some weeks even if the dose is increased.

This goes hand in hand with what people say: at some point in their cycle will the exponential growth stop - they reach a plateau almost.

You have an explanation to this? Recetor regulation? Im kinda baffled over this cause keep reading many mixed signals from many sources..

[ouchthathurts]

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[ouchthathurts]

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[Pinnacle]

Hooker do you know the explanation for this. My physiology book says sumin to this direction: testosterone has a very strong anabolic effect in skeletal muscle but it seems to stop after some weeks even if the dose is increased.

This goes hand in hand with what people say: at some point in their cycle will the exponential growth stop - they reach a plateau almost.

You have an explanation to this? Receptor regulation? I'm kinda baffled over this cause keep reading many mixed signals from many sources..

I'd like to hear Hookers thoughts on this,as well as his thoughts on receptor saturation.


~Pinnacle~

[Two4the$$]

Bump Pinnacle, me too.

Hooker, thanks for indulging us with your opinion. I know you prefer to stick to facts...


Reiteratively, do you (hooker) believe that your first cycle IS necessarily your best opportunity for gains, and if so, are the subsequent ones less affective because the receptors are "desensitized" as so many believe? Or is it just that you are now further along in the BB process, so gains become increasingly difficult. Ie. if I had gotten to where I'm at naturally, would improving from where I'm at be irrespective of past AAS usage? I know, it's another opinion I'm asking for...

[stupidhippo]

I for one didnt have so great gains from my first cycle - but then again I was lifting quite alot already naturally. Could ofcourse be that I am not so receptive to AAS. Dunno..

[Pinnacle]

I for one didnt have so great gains from my first cycle - but then again I was lifting quite alot already naturally. Could ofcourse be that I am not so receptive to AAS. Dunno..

I lifted naturally for a long time as well..real long time.My first cycle was awesome and my best gains ever running a cycle.


~Pinnacle~

[Tedbear981]

I lifted naturally for a long time as well..real long time.My first cycle was awesome and my best gains ever running a cycle.


~Pinnacle~

Loved my first cycle...felt the best ever!!!!!

[stupidhippo]

since i dont have that much experience I cant actually compare like u can.. I gained 20 lbs, still a mystery how much of it I'll keep. But comparing to many ppl I know my gains were fairly moderate. My dose was also wuite big: test 750 + deca 450 a week. The reason I went so high was cause the other cycle I did halfway (got sick in between and had to quit) was normal beginner doses n they just didnt work that well. Im a big guy though.. (275lbs)

[youngbuck1001]

Hi,
i'm new at this so I need some help? I am 24, I'm 6'0, with about 5-6% bodyfat. I have played baseball my whole life so im in good shape. I just graduated from college and this is my first year without baseball. I feel like I'm losing it a little bit. I don't want to take any big roids or no needles. I received 220 tabs of Dball (pink) and I was told to take 1 a day for a week/3 a day for a week/5 a day for a week/8 a day for a week/5 day for a week?3 a day for a week/1 a day for a week. Is this any good? And when should i take them during the day? Should I split them up or take them all at once?

[youngbuck1001]

Hi,
i'm new at this so I need some help? I am 24, I'm 6'0, with about 5-6% bodyfat. I have played baseball my whole life so im in good shape. I just graduated from college and this is my first year without baseball. I feel like I'm losing it a little bit. I don't want to take any big roids or no needles. I received 220 tabs of Dball (pink) and I was told to take 1 a day for a week/3 a day for a week/5 a day for a week/8 a day for a week/5 day for a week?3 a day for a week/1 a day for a week. Is this any good? And when should i take them during the day? Should I split them up or take them all at once?

[Swifto]

Hi,
i'm new at this so I need some help? I am 24, I'm 6'0, with about 5-6% bodyfat. I have played baseball my whole life so im in good shape. I just graduated from college and this is my first year without baseball. I feel like I'm losing it a little bit. I don't want to take any big roids or no needles. I received 220 tabs of Dball (pink) and I was told to take 1 a day for a week/3 a day for a week/5 a day for a week/8 a day for a week/5 day for a week?3 a day for a week/1 a day for a week. Is this any good? And when should i take them during the day? Should I split them up or take them all at once?

Dont bump old posts. This is nearly 1 year old.