Junior Member
Sorry double post....so I'll try to write something thoughtful here. So anyway, everyone knows prison is aversive, but it doesn't keep people from ending up there. If we know that being afraid of prison doesn't work to prevent people from going there, why make it worse. For the 87k we spend housing them for a year, we should get something out of it, make them into soldiers or something like they do in France.
Last edited by Tiftan090; 02-25-2006 at 02:25 AM.
Banned
Being an x-con and having a different perspective on this situation, i can say prison is a place for punishment, but as i saw fellow inmates "endure thier punishments" thier mindset didnt become "let me stop breaking the law" it was "let me stop getting caught". Throughout my sentence the one thing that helped me the most (and everyone else in my situation) was the halfway house. Its not punishment, its rewards for positive behaviour, but more than that its education, 6 hours of classes EVERYDAY learning about things like R.E.B.T., coping mechanisms and criminal psychology. The six months i spent in the half-way house changed my life, not because i was punished but because i was educated, and as many of you may suspect education can only help the intectually inferior, you are wrong, knowledge is the only real liberation from any human ailment. And all i can say now for myself is im a happy young free man persuing a degree for psychotherapy and hope i can help others that are going through the same shit i went through.
Vitamin Enhanced Sociopathic Post Whore
very well put Bojangles. very well putOriginally Posted by Bojangles69
Member
I ain't talkiung about throwing out due process. Have due process but make sure:
1. It ain't weighted in favour of the criminal like it is now
2. make sure the jusdges aren't soft liberals
3. Make sure that the punnishment is harsh
And your damn well right that peopl who are "evil" (as you put it) should be punished!!! And if you don't think so maybe you'll change your mind when you get muged, or your house gets burgled or your g/f gets raped!
For too long criminals have had it their way thanks to liberal ppl like you...the "oh let's look at why they do these things" or "they're not really bad let's give them a second chance"!!!! Let's start thinking a little more about protecting the rights of the ppl who bother to follow the rules in society!!!!
S
Last edited by Schwarz; 02-27-2006 at 09:09 AM.
Member
That's a nice story. And I'm glad you are now on the straight and narrow. However,
1. It's a shame you had to be convicted in order for you to bother getting an education. Why couldn't you get one before and at your own expense??
2. I'm sure that everyone in your prison got the same opportunity but I bet that the vast majority aren't doing as good as you
3. Their mindset is on enduring their punishment but that's because they haven't received proper punishment. I bet if they had a hand cut off or an eye taken out they'd be thinking differently.
For too long we've had too much regard for the criminals rights. As far as I am concerned it should be an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth!!!
S
Ps and none of that "an eye for an eye will eventually leave the world blind" crap coz we have tried the liberal approach and it'a clear that it ain't working. Pick up any newspaper and you'll see my point!!!
National Level Bodybuilder/Hall of Famer/RETIRED
The personal attack directed at miked512 is totally unnecessary. It just shows your level of intelligence or lack there of.
Last edited by Carlos_E; 02-27-2006 at 08:44 AM.
Muscle Asylum Project Athlete
Member
You are right and I apologise. I just get very angry when I see someone get off with a light sentence when they deserve a lot more. Still. no excuse for what I said.
S
PS I will amend the post
Associate Member
Damn, I'm not even liberal.I'm a gun totin' southern conservative to be honest, but don't get me started there.
Criminals have had it their way? Hell, past criminals and most people that are on their way to becoming criminals can't even find jobs. I don't know if thats having their way or not. Then again, considering that most of them are "have nots" i guess they "have something" now as you put it.
Let me go through your 3 while I'm here:
Have due process but make sure:
1. It ain't weighted in favour of the criminal like it is now
Weighted in favour of the criminal? Uumm, its weighted in no one's favor now ... supposedly. Its supposed to be "innocent until proven guilty" but under your flawed system, you've already labelled the defendant a criminal when this hasn't even been determined. Just because you're accused of a crime doesn't mean you did it.
2. make sure the jusdges aren't soft liberals
Wow, now thats going to be pretty hard to strictly define. "Make sure the jusdges aren't soft liberals". I'm going to assume you meant judges but how the hell are you going to determine if judges are soft liberals? If you automatically assume defendants are criminals under your system, then I guess its safe to assume that all judges that aren't republicans are soft liberals.
3. Make sure that the punnishment is harsh
We're going to chop the hands off of steroid possessors so they can't inject themselves. Yeah, now thats pretty damned harsh. :-) We should also stone women that get pregnant out of wedlock. Or should we sew an "A" onto their clothes for adulteress.
Wow, can anybody say "flawed system of government"? Well, according to someone else in another thread, people like you will eventually die out so I'm not too worried.
At any rate, I don't recall saying that evil people shouldn't be punished. I just remember putting an interesting twist on it, but in all honesty I don't remember what I said on this board concerning the situation. I do know I've been going off and on about it to real people concerning the whole "liberation of Iraq" because they kill their own civilians when in fact those civilians are considered evil by the Iraqis in power at the time. We do the same thing here so its a bit of a hypocrisy for us to kill/torture our own civilians we consider evil yet when someone else does it and we don't like the philosophy they use for determining evil, we think its a travesty and decide that they're evil people for having a different philosophy on as to whats evil and what isn't.
You, and just about everyone else I know and don't know, seem to have a pick and choose perspective on how to handle evil people. ;-) For a bunch of christians that are supposed to turn the other cheek, you make me wonder if you're just a bunch of eye for an eye hebrews.
Not that there's anything wrong with "eye for an eye". I think all violent criminals should be put away, punished, and well, upon release, reacclimated with society.
Last edited by miked512; 02-27-2006 at 09:11 AM.
Member
OKDamn, I'm not even liberal.
Criminals have had it their way? Hell, past criminals and most people that are on their way to becoming criminals can't even find jobs. I don't know if thats having their way or not. Then again, considering that most of them are "have nots" i guess they "have something" now as you put it.
Let me go through your 3 while I'm here:
Have due process but make sure:
1. It ain't weighted in favour of the criminal like it is now
Weighted in favour of the criminal? Uumm, its weighted in no one's favor now ... supposedly. Its supposed to be "innocent until proven guilty" but under your flawed system, you've already labelled the defendant a criminal when this hasn't even been determined. Just because you're accused of a crime doesn't mean you did it.
2. make sure the jusdges aren't soft liberals
Wow, now thats going to be pretty hard to strictly define. "Make sure the jusdges aren't soft liberals". I'm going to assume you meant judges but how the hell are you going to determine if judges are soft liberals? If you automatically assume defendants are criminals under your system, then I guess its safe to assume that all judges that aren't republicans are soft liberals.
3. Make sure that the punnishment is harsh
We're going to chop the hands off of steroid possessors so they can't inject themselves. Yeah, now thats pretty damned harsh. :-) We should also stone women that get pregnant out of wedlock. Or should we sew an "A" onto their clothes for adulteress.
Wow, can anybody say "flawed system of government"? Well, according to someone else in another thread, people like you will eventually die out so I'm not too worried.
At any rate, I don't recall saying that evil people shouldn't be punished. I just remember putting an interesting twist on it, but in all honesty I don't remember what I said on this board concerning the situation. I do know I've been going off and on about it to real people concerning the whole "liberation of Iraq" because they kill their own civilians when in fact those civilians are considered evil by the Iraqis in power at the time. We do the same thing here so its a bit of a hypocrisy for us to kill/torture our own civilians we consider evil yet when someone else does it and we don't like the philosophy they use for determining evil, we think its a travesty and decide that they're evil people for having a different philosophy on as to whats evil and what isn't.
You, and just about everyone else I know and don't know, seem to have a pick and choose perspective on how to handle evil people. ;-) For a bunch of christians that are supposed to turn the other cheek, you make me wonder if you're just a bunch of eye for an eye hebrews.
1. In the Uk atleast the legal process is weighed solely in favour of the criminal. I know I worked for a criminal defence firm for a while (my conscience got the better of me) and you'd be sick if I told you some of the tricks a defence attorney can pull to get his client out of jail time.
And regarding criminals not having jobs. Well frstly that's their fault for having a criminal record. Secondly, I know plently of people that struggle to get by in life but they found any work they could...no matter how low the pay and they never broke the law to get by!!! Tructh is you give a criminal a job in macdonalds for $5 an hour and 9 times out of 10 they'll go back to criminal activity just for the fun of it!!
2. It's easy to make judges non liberal. Give them clear instructions as to what sentence to apply in which crime. Only last week a judge gave an unliscenced and uninsured drink driver who ran over a 3 year old (YES 3 YEARS OLD) a 12 month suspended sentence. Last month a CONVICTED drug dealer who used children to peddle his filth got let off with a suspended sentence because the judge thought the PRISONS WERE TOO FULL!!!! You can't tell me this isn't liberalism at it's sickest!!
3. Punishment should be harsh in relation to the crime committed. If you continuosly rob people or burgle houses then yes I think you should have a hand chopped off (perhaps it will fvcking teach you to not steal and if you carry on well soon you won't be able to steal!!). If you knowingly get drunk and run over someone you should be convicted of murder not DUI and be sent to the electric chair!!! I don't care if you intended to kill that person or not...you are RESPONSIBLE for your own actions!!! Punishment to fit the crime...an eye for an eye!
This ain't about a "flawed system of government" because I'm not trying to change the system of goverment just the sentencing policies/attitudes. There is a big difference. Don't worry ppl like me will be around forever....especially when ppl like you wake up and smell the coffee...probably when that drink driver on probation runs over someone you love!
I don't like using the word evil to categorise someone. To me it's simple. You commit a crime and violate someones right in the process....then you PAY!!!
I am a christian but I tell you you can only turn your cheek so many times before you get sick of doing it!!!
National Level Bodybuilder/Hall of Famer/RETIRED
LOL @ Christian who advocate the death penalty. For the death penalty but against abortion.
You should ask yourself. "What would Jesus do?"
Last edited by Carlos_E; 02-27-2006 at 09:44 AM.
Muscle Asylum Project Athlete
Member
I ain't a practicing one so....but even if I were, and applying your theory we should just let all criminals go then. Would you be happy living in that kind of society...with no law and order...no justice at all??
No didn't think so...This ain't a question of religion...it's a question of justice and not just seeing to be just but actually being just and protecting the innocent from the guilty otherwise what incentive is there to being a law abiding citizen...
Re abortion..big difference. One is a helpless innocent baby the other has broken into an old lady's house and strangled her for £30...(6 months ago in London).
Last edited by Schwarz; 02-27-2006 at 09:48 AM.
National Level Bodybuilder/Hall of Famer/RETIRED
Christian view...
You can't be for one and not the other. Murder is Murder. Do you think God cares if it's an unborn baby or some scub bag loser? You're still taking a life that he gave. I find the hypocrisy amusing.
Muscle Asylum Project Athlete
Member
So it's ok for the criminal to take a life and be on his merry way but it's not OK for society to demand recompense. And by jailing that person for life aren't you (in a lesser way I admit) taking his life away as well.
Also your basing everything on religion. Justice has nothing to do with religion. What if the convicted person was an atheist....would it be ok then to execue him as he has denied God??
If you base justice on religion then we must just forgive all criminals...that's it. No convictions just say your sorry and be on your way. Do you see Carlos why Justice can't be dictated by religion? What chaos it would bring??
Associate Member
A government can't violate a person's humans rights just because that person has violated another's right. Unfortunately, it makes the people fear it and they end up requesting another system of government. Its never popular for a government to do that because well, if that government gets too far out of line, its can be disastrous. Thats where the whole, "you'd have a planet full of blind people" comes into play at.
Unfortunately, your sentence recommendations would cause this. :-)
I never said get rid of prisons and not punishing criminals. My point is, that the surprising percentage of the population that happen to be in the prison system doesn't really add up. There aren't that many mentally ill threats to society being born daily. Yeah, I take it that people who commit violent crimes have serious mental issues and should be isolated from society.
However, the sheer number of people we have in prisons to day seems to not make sense with the fact that only a small fraction of people should be isolated. This means the problem with crime has to come from somewhere else. Not just because people are sick in the head but something environmental is causing this fascination with crime. Thats the whole liberal thought behind it. There is no logical reason why prisons should be full unless of course 1) you want to make a large amount of revenue off of them 2) the environment is driving them to lawlessness 3) there's a large amount of inbreeding going on causing a high level of retardation and increasing the number of sick people that have a fascination with committing violent crimes.
Associate Member
I like this line. I feel a quote coming.
Productive Member
While the Sheriff is right on, too many inmates are in lock-up for victimless crimes like posession of marijuana and juice. That's what really sucks. But if your in jail for crimes committed, it should suck royal.
Member
But it does even now. If you commit a crime you go to jail. Is this not a violation of human rights??? But it's justified and I believe the majority of ppl would allow further violation because they know the value of living in a safe society.
As for the rest of what you wrote I didn't quiet understand it. I think you were trying to say that there is a link between criminal behaviour and mental illness and the environment these criminals live in that force them into crime. I think these are bad excuses to use and they are excuses that (in my opinion atleast) aren't valid.
S
Retired: AR-Hall of Famer
well many european countries has much more liberal punishments than the united states and most if not all has much less crime.
Banned
Figured id respond..
1. I was going to school before so would have continued afterwards regardless of my sentence. But my grades after were much better and i was much more goal oriented and focused afterwards.
2. Opportunity wise you are right, in prison when your 18 months short of parole most inmates can apply for a halfway house, however oppotunity wise when they get released thier back at square one, poverty, gang and drug infested neighborhoods. But fact is after what ive seen and i dont care what anyone says, environment IS a legitamate excuse to commit crime. Now youll say bullshit they should get a job at Micky D's and pay their way through college, sounds rational right?? WRONG, go live in some ghettos in Newark or Camden or where ever and see how easy it is for you to prosper and live a rightous independent life. Im sorry but i do sympathize for SOME criminals, cause most of them live lives most people couldnt last 5 mins in and its shocking most of them lasted as long as they did. Thier societies dictated thier futures before they were born and only an elite few will ever actually rise above. Then there are fortunate ones like me who come from good neighborhoods.
3. Now this is the real important part here, PROPER PUNISHMENT. And this is where the justice system is flawed and will always remain so. Ive seen LOTS of people who recieved 4 year flat sentences for having less than a gram of coke or dope FIRST OFFENSE!!! Then ive see people caught with unlicensed firearms get an 8 month sentence. Ive seen tons of murderers get paroled after only 6,7, 8 years and people convicted of credit card fraud recieve 10 year minimum mandatory sentences. The list goes on.
and last but not least... prisoner DONT HAVE RIGHTS, they are property of the state, the authorites have the rights and its in thier discretion to give them to you.
Last edited by Bojangles69; 02-27-2006 at 04:16 PM.
Senior Member
yea i did some time in a county jail. It sucks everything about jail sukcs, there are no pillows, no privacy at all, 24 hours a day you see the same people and the food sucks. Needless to say jail is a horrable place and i don't think this guy should be that hard on them but i think he does have somthing good going for her.
Banned
Yeh i agree, prison was a nightmare, but what this guy is doing isnt bad compared to what 90% of prisons arent doing which is not giving a shit about the prisoners or having any concern on rehabilitating them, i would rather have spent my time in that place then where i did my bid without a doubt, jmo.
Member
You make some good points but I still can't accept the enviroment excuse. After all, a neighborhood is only bad because the criminals make it bad. If you contribute to the shittyness of a neighbourhood then how can you say it was the enviroment you helped to create that turned you into a criminal.
And just because some criminals live lives that most ppl couldn't live for 5 minutes so what? Am I meant to look up to these ppl because of that?? Is that something to be proud of?? No way!!!
And if prisoners don't have right then how come (in the UK atleast) we hear about prisoners suing because they had to sleep in a cell with 2 other inmates or because they think they deserve the right to vote. The sheriff in the example above has got it right and taken all their rights away!!
Member
That's because none of the european countries have a population as big as America's. Essentially you are distorting the figures. If you take it on a pro rata basis I think you'll find European countires come out worse...
Retired: AR-Hall of Famer
I am not talking ammounts of criminals. I am talking %
Member
Yes but you have to take into account popultion size and for example number of criminals per say 10,000 ppl. Otherwise your figures become distorted.
Retired: AR-Hall of Famer
and in what way does checking % of population that is criminal not fit what you just saidoffcourse I have not seen those figures myself so its just hersay.
Retired: AR-Hall of Famer
2000. World
Homicide Rates(per 100 000).
Descending order
50.14 South Africa
21.40 Russia (1999)
10.00 Lithuania
_9.94 Estonia
_6.22 Latvia
_5.64 U.S.A.
_2.94 Spain
_2.86 Finland
_2.84 Northern Ireland
_2.72 Czech Republic
_2.65 Slovakia
_2.58 New Zealand
_2.50 Romania
_2.31 Turkey (1999)
_2.23 Poland
_2.11 Scotland
_2.04 Hungary
_1.97 Sweden
_1.81 Australia
_1.79 France
_1.76 Canada
_1.61 England & Wales
_1.54 Belgium
_1.50 Greece
_1.48 Ireland (Eire)
_1.42 Netherlands
_1.42 Italy
_1.41 Slovenia
_1.24 Portugal
_1.17 Germany
_1.10 Japan
_1.09 Norway
_1.09 Denmark
_1.06 Malta
_1.01 Austria
_0.96 Switzerland
_0.60 Cyprus
_0.23 Luxembourg
pulled from this site http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/homicide.htm that claims its from the International "Comparisons of Criminal Justice Statistics 2000"
Last edited by Kärnfysikern; 02-28-2006 at 08:35 AM.
Member
Perhaps an example will make my point (these are made up numbers just to demonstrate)and in what way does checking % of population that is criminal not fit what you just said
America - Population of 200,000 with 10,000 criminal per 100,000 (20,000 criminals)
Britain - Population 100,000 with 11,000 criminals per 100,000 (11,000 criminals)
So you see you have to take into consideration the population figure when looking at number of criminals. If the UK in the above example had the same population as america they would have more criminals than US but because they have a smaller population it looks like US has more criminals....
S
Retired: AR-Hall of Famer
yes thats exactly why I said the percentage of the population that is criminals in europe is lower than in the united states.
From the stats I posted atleast the homocide statistics are alot worse in the unites states. I cant find any for all kinds of crime. But the only criminals that should be put into jail imo is violent criminals.
English Rudeboy
Johan those figures you posted are incredible, you are 3.5 times more likely to get murdered in the USA than here in the UK but then look at SA, almost 10 times the murder rate of the USA - crazy!
As to the point you are debating even given that countries with a more liberal legal system have lower crime it still does not prove that the liberal system lowers crime, maybe it is that, faced with high crime, some countries had to adopt a more aggressive legal system - it's a bit of a "chicken and egg" situation.
Member
[quote=johan]yes thats exactly why I said the percentage of the population that is criminals in europe is lower than in the united states.
From the stats I posted atleast the homocide statistics are alot worse in the unites states. I cant find any for all kinds of crime. But the only criminals that should be put into jail imo is violent criminals.[/quote]
What about druge dealer, paedophiles, burglars??? Let them go....I don't think so!!!
Anabolic Member
We need some of those tent camps in Canada. I'm sure the crime rate would drop. -40 in a tent... that would teach those criminals a lesson.
We can give them a pink jacket to keep warm.
Retired: AR-Hall of Famer
a phedophile is a violent criminal imo and a burgler doesnt realy get his hand on the money peacefully.
A drug dealer on the other hand is just a buisnessman in my eyes. Aslong as he doesnt sell to those under the age of 18 or is involved in other crimes I dont se why he should be put in jail. He isnt hurting anyone(not anymore than a liqour store owner is or tobacco salesmen)
Retired: AR-Hall of Famer
your right its hard to tell. I think the american way of looking up lots of "inocent" people like drug users is wrong though. I only agree with jail sentance if the person getting the sentance is a danger to the public. Otherwise its a waste of my money to put him in jail.
Locking people up for victimless crime is a expensive buisness.
English Rudeboy
Unless you stick 'em in tents and make the buggers work!
Anabolic Member
Right on. Get them to do road repair, or other things that would benifit us tax payers. Grow crops to feed the homeless, and sew them clothes. They could build housing structures for the needy.Unless you stick 'em in tents and make the buggers work!
Seriously though, they could build mobile homes at the jail, then have them shipped to various cities to supply the poor with a place to live.
Retired: AR-Hall of Famer
Unless you stick 'em in tents and make the buggers work!but before such punishments are dealt out we need a law system that is fair and just like it is suposed to be.
Punishing people that want to have fun(rec drug users) and people that just want to be strong(juicers) is plain wrong in all ways. Punishing those that provide those 2 groups with what they want is equaly wrong.
Member
How can you say that a person who sells crack cocaine (even to over 18yr olds) isn't hurting anyone. Recreational drugs are ADDICTIVE and people who get addicted soon find they have to commit crimes to supply their habit. This is why the drug dealers should be jailed.
Trust me I've lived in some of the worst areas in London (Hackney and Brixton!!!) and I have seen first hand the misery these addictive drugs cause and the violence that drug dealers dish out to keep their "pitch". Perhaps if you'd experienced some of the sh*t I have your views on punishment would be slightly more victim orientated as opposed to criminal orientated.
I agree there is a discrepancy in the sale of alcohol and tobacco but that's the law of the land and our discussion is about sentencing attitudes/ideologies.
S
Member
How about a system that is fair and just on the innocent, the victims of crime and the law abiding??? or don't we matter???
Punishing people that want to have fun(rec drug users) and people that just want to be strong(juicers) is plain wrong in all ways. Punishing those that provide those 2 groups with what they want is equaly wrong.
Banned
Hell yah, someone in this country with authority needs to be badass still!
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