Very worrying

[Teabagger]

In reply to your post...I never once mentioned "soul", as a condition of life, you did. You try to bring religion into this, I don't. There is right and wrong in the universe, regardless of which religion, if any, you subscribe to.

[mcpeepants]

In reply to your post...I never once mentioned "soul", as a condition of life, you did. You try to bring religion into this, I don't. There is right and wrong in the universe, regardless of which religion, if any, you subscribe to.

There is no right or wrong (morality wise) in the universe. The only goal of any creature is to survive. Everything else is secondary.

[Phreak101]

There is no right or wrong (morality wise) in the universe. The only goal of any creature is to survive. Everything else is secondary.

This usually would be correct, and in most cases I would agree with you, but morals are what seperate us from animals. Since we can understand the consequences of our actions before they happen, morality is how we as civilized people can still carry on the survival of our species without infringing on natural law or the natural rights of other people.

In this case, the moral issue stems (no pun intended) from the question of is the fetus alive or not? If it is, the moral issue is killing the unborn child, if it is not, there is no moral issue. This is where the argument starts to go in circles, based on opinion more than science.

Sure our goal is to survive, but it is morals that keeps us from destroying each other in the fight for survival.

[mcpeepants]

This usually would be correct, and in most cases I would agree with you, but morals are what seperate us from animals. Since we can understand the consequences of our actions before they happen, morality is how we as civilized people can still carry on the survival of our species without infringing on or the natural rights of other people.

In this case, the moral issue stems (no pun intended) from the question of is the fetus alive or not? If it is, the moral issue is killing the unborn child, if it is not, there is no moral issue. This is where the argument starts to go in circles, based on opinion more than science.

Sure our goal is to survive, but it is morals that keeps us from destroying each other in the fight for survival.

I agree with most of what your saying, just knit picking some of the edges. Morality confuses me. The way it's used sometimes, it's doesn't seem like that what seperates us from animals. In nature, symbiosis (the beneficial kind) occurs all the time and it doesn't appear to involve morals. You watch my back and i'll watch yours. You don't need morals to have an interest in other people surviving. But then I again, I don't see how you could have a large group of people cooperating without some kind of moral code (ants and termites do it though).

[Teabagger]

OK. There seem to be some on here that can't agree life begins at conception, and there are others that it doesn't matter to. For those of you who do not believe life begins at conception I have a question...when does life begin?? At what developmental stage does the fetus magically become "alive", and thus worthy of protecting against murder? I want you to respond with the exact moment in time...more specfic than the hour, minute, or second. When is the switch flipped and that nebulous blob of cells suddenly become human?

And for those on here that condition "life" on having experience I assume that abortion is within a womans right up until the exact second that baby's head exits the vagina and takes it first breath...am I correct in assuming this is your stance, which is in line with your "life is experience" test?

Someone mentioned a miscarriage and tried to somehow tie it to abortion...a miscarriage is nature's way of terminating a "blob of cells" that had no chance of even surviving the gestation period. It required no act by the woman or a third party.

[Tock]

..when does life begin.

Depends on how you want to define "life."

Strictly speaking, I don't think there is any such thing as "life," a sort of mystic essense of a biological entity that differentiates it from an inanimate object like a rock.
IMHO, you and I and everything in the universe are made of atoms and molecules that act and react to each other. And that's all there is.

[The OutLord]

OK. There seem to be some on here that can't agree life begins at conception, and there are others that it doesn't matter to. For those of you who do not believe life begins at conception I have a question...when does life begin??.

( 1 )When Life have develop the first step to controll sytem for the own being.

( 2 )Life have begin when It is aware of the surroundings

[Kärnfysikern]

OK. There seem to be some on here that can't agree life begins at conception, and there are others that it doesn't matter to. For those of you who do not believe life begins at conception I have a question...when does life begin??

When the featus becomes aware. When it has started to develop sensory organs, when it has started to develop a brain. Thats when its capabel to feel and think and becomes aware.

At what developmental stage does the fetus magically become "alive", and thus worthy of protecting against murder? I want you to respond with the exact moment in time...more specfic than the hour, minute, or second. When is the switch flipped and that nebulous blob of cells suddenly become human?

Well you know aswell as I do that its impossible for any layman here to do that when not even the experts can come to a agreement.
But I do know that a bunch of cells after 3-4 days isnt aware, has no brain, has no sensory organs, experience nothing. That is the point of time that is relevalt to this thread because that is when its extracted for steem cell research. Its not even refered to as a featus in that stage. Only a blastocyte.

And for those on here that condition "life" on having experience I assume that abortion is within a womans right up until the exact second that baby's head exits the vagina and takes it first breath...am I correct in assuming this is your stance, which is in line with your "life is experience" test?

I dont speak for everyone else. But its not a correct assumption in my eyes. Later abortions is not ok.

[Phreak101]

OK. There seem to be some on here that can't agree life begins at conception, and there are others that it doesn't matter to. For those of you who do not believe life begins at conception I have a question...when does life begin?? At what developmental stage does the fetus magically become "alive", and thus worthy of protecting against murder? I want you to respond with the exact moment in time...more specfic than the hour, minute, or second. When is the switch flipped and that nebulous blob of cells suddenly become human?

No one knows, and asking us to respond with the exact moment of time is unreasonable. Besides, none of us is proposing to use a third trimester baby for stem cells, the threshold for the age of an embryo would be long before either of us could agree that brain activity and awareness exists.

And for those on here that condition "life" on having experience I assume that abortion is within a womans right up until the exact second that baby's head exits the vagina and takes it first breath...am I correct in assuming this is your stance, which is in line with your "life is experience" test?

No need for drama, empathy is a wonderful thing don't you think? You know everyone here would do their best to make the choice as early as possible.


Someone mentioned a miscarriage and tried to somehow tie it to abortion...a miscarriage is nature's way of terminating a "blob of cells" that had no chance of even surviving the gestation period. It required no act by the woman or a third party.

How do you know? Show me the exact moment the mothers body knows that the blob of cells is not in fact aware? If life begins at conception, the mother's body is murdering the child? This is common sense, miscarriages can happen as late as 2 months into a pregnancy, how would harvesting a one month old aborted fetus e any different?

Life is experience, it is awareness, blobs of cells are not aware. A human needs sensory organs to experience and observe, and those organs come into play long after any of us would think about aborting a baby and using it in the name of science.

[RA]

Life is experience, it is awareness, blobs of cells are not aware. A human needs sensory organs to experience and observe, and those organs come into play long after any of us would think about aborting a baby and using it in the name of science.

If you dont think that women have abortions when the child looks fully formed then you are mis-informed. At 13 weeks my daughter was spinning and jumping. You could see fingers, toes, etc.

[Logan13]

I agree with most of what your saying, just knit picking some of the edges. Morality confuses me. The way it's used sometimes, it's doesn't seem like that what seperates us from animals. In nature, symbiosis (the beneficial kind) occurs all the time and it doesn't appear to involve morals. You watch my back and i'll watch yours. You don't need morals to have an interest in other people surviving. But then I again, I don't see how you could have a large group of people cooperating without some kind of moral code (ants and termites do it though).

How do you relate morality and a symbiotic relationship? Please look up the word moral.

[mcpeepants]

How do you relate morality and a symbiotic relationship? Please look up the word moral.

I was just trying to say that an animal can want to the ensure the survival of another with the need for morality. Beneficial symbiotic behavior is an example of such a case.

[RA]

I was just trying to say that an animal can want to the ensure the survival of another with the need for morality. Beneficial symbiotic behavior is an example of such a case.

Your implying a choice.

[Phreak101]

I agree with most of what your saying, just knit picking some of the edges. Morality confuses me. The way it's used sometimes, it's doesn't seem like that what seperates us from animals. In nature, symbiosis (the beneficial kind) occurs all the time and it doesn't appear to involve morals. You watch my back and i'll watch yours. You don't need morals to have an interest in other people surviving. But then I again, I don't see how you could have a large group of people cooperating without some kind of moral code (ants and termites do it though).

That's called ethics, which is the enforcement of basic human morals

[mcpeepants]

That's called ethics, which is the enforcement of basic human morals

But this behavior and order is done by creatures like ants and termites that don't appear to have any morals or ethnics. just some chemical way of enforcing order.

[Phreak101]

But this behavior and order is done by creatures like ants and termites that don't appear to have any morals or ethnics. just some chemical way of enforcing order.

Well there are theories that colonies share a universal consciousness among all of them even thought they are seperate. The reason they cooperate is because instinctually every member of the colony has a job that in the end benefits the colony and the queen.

Humans on the other hand know they have a choice in the matter and can choose to go one way or the other. Morality involves those choices, ethics enforces the morals.