The Biological Research on Homosexuality

[Snrf]

haha, I like the way carlos said "if everyone else was gay would you want to be?" if everyone else was gay I'd be the only straight guy in the world, I'd be gettin so much pussy..thatd be awesome

[RA]

Watch it Roid! I don't think "gaydar" is a politcally correct approved term. The suspensions and bannings and homophobe labels have been flying faster in this thread than a pair of rims off a bentley at a Puff Daddy concert.

Everybody on here needs to be reported for being offensive, unless of course there are protected types of people on here , which of course we all know there is not

Don't step out of line again Roid...

Point taken. Ill choose my words more carefully

[Logan13]

I could respond, but there's no sense in doing so. You evidently don't fully appreciate or care about the psychological harm that reparative therapy does to people. You found some reason to post this anti-gay BS in this NEWS forum, which is more BS than NEWS.

I don't know what's prompting you to post all this homophobic crap on this website.

-Tock

Let's cut to the chase, I will explain my position to clear up any miscommunications. I have no problem whatsoever with homosexuality. I do not think that homosexuals need "reparitive therapy", as I do not think that people become gay because they have some mental illness. Most people in this country could not give a shit about what anyone does behind closed doors, nor do these same people have a problem with gays/lesbians having the legal rights that heterosexual have in regards to tax right offs and property inheritance. I believe that under the equal treatment under the law, everyone should be treated the same. Civil unions are the appropriate venue for this in my mind. This is where you loose the vast majority of people. It all comes down to tradition, when any group messes with a tradition they will have a fight on their hands as well as weaken their support for everything else, (i.e. become marginalized). You have to give a little and heteros need to give a little, but if you demand everything, you will get nothing. Homosexuality has been rammed down our throats for the last 8-10 years, and frankly people are tired of it. You must concede somethings to get what really matters to your cause.

[RA]

haha, I like the way carlos said "if everyone else was gay would you want to be?" if everyone else was gay I'd be the only straight guy in the world, I'd be gettin so much pussy..thatd be awesome

Yeah but you would have an Arkansas family tree, no branches

[givemethejuice]

phreak i understand what your getting at. I'm curious also. And if there was a magic pill, they wouldn't be hiding their natural feelings they wouldn't have those feelings anymore. If there was a so called cure.

No sense trying to explain it to Carlos. He is to closed mined to even try and understand where someone else is coming from

Lol, he got suspended for this comment! I have seen much worse comments made about or too other people and nothing has happened to them. I hope I don't get suspended for drawing attention to this post.

[givemethejuice]

Watch it Roid! I don't think "gaydar" is a politcally correct approved term. The suspensions and bannings and homophobe labels have been flying faster in this thread than a pair of rims off a bentley at a Puff Daddy concert.

Everybody on here needs to be reported for being offensive, unless of course there are protected types of people on here , which of course we all know there is not

Don't step out of line again Roid...

Lol. awesome post teabagger. That shit was funny.

[Tock]

just curious, i mean i think we have all heard of self hating homosexuals because of societal pressure. i was just wondering what the consensus of the board was. good insight tho.

Problem for me is that I think I'd hate myself if I knew that I had given in to outside pressure to change what I was, just so I could have the approval of other people. That would prove to me that I was a wuss.

So, it's tough either way.

-Tock

[Teabagger]

Lol, he got suspended for this comment! I have seen much worse comments made about or too other people and nothing has happened to them. I hope I don't get suspended for drawing attention to this post.

Be very carerful young grasshopper...in the past those who have questioned authority have just disappeared in the night...poof! gone...banished forever to that cold ether where neither light, dark, cold or hot reign...

[Tock]

Originally Posted by Carlos_E
The point you're not getting is gay men who marry knowing they are gay do it to *conforming to societal standards*.

The point your not getting is maybe everyone doesn't know they are gay when they got married. Just because you realise earlier an age doesn't mean every gay man does

I think both of you have it right.

I knew a chaplain in the USAF who was gay (noticably so), and he always knew he was, but he got married and had a child primarily so he could have a job in the military as a chaplain. And yes, he fooled around a lot on his wife, too.

On the other hand, back when I was 20, I had plans to marry a girl and then go through a seminary to become a minister. Thank goodness, someone suggested I do 4 years in the USAF and then get out and collect education benefits.
When I enlisted, I was so out of it, that I didn't even know what the word gay meant. I was aware of my feelings, which I kept suppressed because I thought every guy had the same feelings but just never did anything about them. Well, once I got away from home, I discovered that communities of gay people existed, and that gay sex was indeed a possibility.

So, yeah, some people get married so they can cover up what they know they are doing, and others get married because they just don't know any better.
I've known some men who figured out they were gay well into their 50's, but decided not to do anything to destabilize their home until their kids were all finished with college. After that, well, they seperated from their wives, stayed best friends (kept in close touch), but pursued a relationship with another man, and everyone lived happily ever after -- after an initial period of "huh?"

Just goes to show that there is no end to the variations possible to the human story. Keeps things interesting . . .

[DSM4Life]

Originally Posted by Carlos_E
The point you're not getting is gay men who marry knowing they are gay do it to *conforming to societal standards*.



I think both of you have it right.

I knew a chaplain in the USAF who was gay (noticably so), and he always knew he was, but he got married and had a child primarily so he could have a job in the military as a chaplain. And yes, he fooled around a lot on his wife, too.

On the other hand, back when I was 20, I had plans to marry a girl and then go through a seminary to become a minister. Thank goodness, someone suggested I do 4 years in the USAF and then get out and collect education benefits.
When I enlisted, I was so out of it, that I didn't even know what the word gay meant. I was aware of my feelings, which I kept suppressed because I thought every guy had the same feelings but just never did anything about them. Well, once I got away from home, I discovered that communities of gay people existed, and that gay sex was indeed a possibility.

So, yeah, some people get married so they can cover up what they know they are doing, and others get married because they just don't know any better.
I've known some men who figured out they were gay well into their 50's, but decided not to do anything to destabilize their home until their kids were all finished with college. After that, well, they seperated from their wives, stayed best friends (kept in close touch), but pursued a relationship with another man, and everyone lived happily ever after -- after an initial period of "huh?"

Just goes to show that there is no end to the variations possible to the human story. Keeps things interesting . . .

That’s why I am happy I grew up in this time. The tables are just starting to get turned to where as people are more accepting of different life styles. Another reason why I love living close to the city (Phila), while walking around downtown it’s so cool to see how different everyone is. If everyone was the same life would be so boring!

[Carlos_E]

Lol, he got suspended for this comment! I have seen much worse comments made about or too other people and nothing has happened to them. I hope I don't get suspended for drawing attention to this post.

Be very carerful young grasshopper...in the past those who have questioned authority have just disappeared in the night...poof! gone...banished forever to that cold ether where neither light, dark, cold or hot reign...

He was supended for comments made in another thread.

[Phreak101]

Originally Posted by Carlos_E
The point you're not getting is gay men who marry knowing they are gay do it to *conforming to societal standards*.



I think both of you have it right.

I knew a chaplain in the USAF who was gay (noticably so), and he always knew he was, but he got married and had a child primarily so he could have a job in the military as a chaplain. And yes, he fooled around a lot on his wife, too.

On the other hand, back when I was 20, I had plans to marry a girl and then go through a seminary to become a minister. Thank goodness, someone suggested I do 4 years in the USAF and then get out and collect education benefits.
When I enlisted, I was so out of it, that I didn't even know what the word gay meant. I was aware of my feelings, which I kept suppressed because I thought every guy had the same feelings but just never did anything about them. Well, once I got away from home, I discovered that communities of gay people existed, and that gay sex was indeed a possibility.

So, yeah, some people get married so they can cover up what they know they are doing, and others get married because they just don't know any better.
I've known some men who figured out they were gay well into their 50's, but decided not to do anything to destabilize their home until their kids were all finished with college. After that, well, they seperated from their wives, stayed best friends (kept in close touch), but pursued a relationship with another man, and everyone lived happily ever after -- after an initial period of "huh?"

Just goes to show that there is no end to the variations possible to the human story. Keeps things interesting . . .

Well said Tock. It must be scary for a man/boy who is told by EVERY media, including his parents and peers, that he is "supposed" to like women, but then does not understand why he doesn't. Good thing they have people like Carlos to enlist some gay psychology

[Carlos_E]

That’s why I am happy I grew up in this time. The tables are just starting to get turned to where as people are more accepting of different life styles. Another reason why I love living close to the city (Phila), while walking around downtown it’s so cool to see how different everyone is. If everyone was the same life would be so boring!

I agree with you. Times are better. When I told my parents I was gay their reaction was "OK. How are your grades?"

[BigLittleTim]

I agree with you. Times are better. When I told my parents I was gay their reaction was "OK. How are your grades?"

When I told my parents I like boys instead of girls they said: "Oh, thank goodness! We thought you didn't know."

-BigLittleTim

[RA]

When I told my parents I like boys instead of girls they said: "Oh, thank goodness! We thought you didn't know."

-BigLittleTim

[DSM4Life]

When I told my parents I like boys instead of girls they said: "Oh, thank goodness! We thought you didn't know."

-BigLittleTim

LMAO

[givemethejuice]

He was supended for comments made in another thread.

Oh, Sorry. I thought getting suspended for those comments was pretty rediculous.

[Logan13]

nah cmon i dont think he is closed minded at all. a gay bodybuilder of color who lives in NYC by definition cant be closed minded lol. he is cool, maybe he goes on the offensive too often? but if thats the case its warranted with what he must deal with.

A person with a minority view can be as closed minded as anyone. No one can make us act in any way, unless we allow them to.

[Mike Dura]

On the other hand, much of what influences behavior is not detected by the persuadees. If so, tacticians and big companies are "telling you what to do" by influencing actions that you think are self-determined. It's not an issue of "what we allow" as much as it's an issue of what we detect or what we are aware of. Why else would big biz put millions into their marketing? Dupes abound!

A person with a minority view can be as closed minded as anyone. No one can make us act in any way, unless we allow them to.

[Superhuman]

The point your not getting is maybe everyone doesn't know they are gay when they got married. Just because you realise earlier an age doesn't mean every gay man does

yes you are right... my grandfather didn't know he was gay until he was in his 50s and then after my grandmother killed herself he started to date men and now he has a "partner". I know that he didn't want to be gay and he fought those feelings. He loved my grandmother but he found himself drawn to men. If he could have taken a pill to get rid of the homosexual feelings I know he would have. He didn't want to be gay.

I know this is going to seem bad, but what about pedophiles? Why are they attracted to little kids? Is it perhaps a genetic disorder like some people say homosexuality is or are they both acquired personality traits from your environment growing up?

[Carlos_E]

I thought getting suspended for those comments was pretty rediculous.

And if he was that is for the admin to decide. Not you.

[Chamadali*8*vag]

Jean Simmons thinks im cute!

[Teabagger]

And if he was that is for the admin to decide. Not you.

I'm trying to tell ya young grasshopper...your type of mature attitude, and your need to express simple opinions are not tolerated...You did note the verbal slapping you got from Carlos right?? Need to learn your place....and quick.

[DSM4Life]

yes you are right... my grandfather didn't know he was gay until he was in his 50s and then after my grandmother killed herself he started to date men and now he has a "partner". I know that he didn't want to be gay and he fought those feelings. He loved my grandmother but he found himself drawn to men. If he could have taken a pill to get rid of the homosexual feelings I know he would have. He didn't want to be gay.

I know this is going to seem bad, but what about pedophiles? Why are they attracted to little kids? Is it perhaps a genetic disorder like some people say homosexuality is or are they both acquired personality traits from your environment growing up?

I don't think genetics is to blame. I honestly think its just a personality trait. Some like the same sex, some opposite, and some even dabble in both depending on what that specific person likes.

[Logan13]

On the other hand, much of what influences behavior is not detected by the persuadees. If so, tacticians and big companies are "telling you what to do" by influencing actions that you think are self-determined. It's not an issue of "what we allow" as much as it's an issue of what we detect or what we are aware of. Why else would big biz put millions into their marketing? Dupes abound!

Please come in from left field............

[Phreak101]

yes you are right... my grandfather didn't know he was gay until he was in his 50s and then after my grandmother killed herself he started to date men and now he has a "partner". I know that he didn't want to be gay and he fought those feelings. He loved my grandmother but he found himself drawn to men. If he could have taken a pill to get rid of the homosexual feelings I know he would have. He didn't want to be gay.

I know this is going to seem bad, but what about pedophiles? Why are they attracted to little kids? Is it perhaps a genetic disorder like some people say homosexuality is or are they both acquired personality traits from your environment growing up?

EXACTLY my point....

[Mike Dura]

Either I'm in left field or you're failing to understand. Hmmmmm. I wonder which?

Maybe this will help. Let's review.

(1) You say no one can make us act in any way unless you let them.

Although my point is beside the general topic you guys were talking about, I responded to this specific statement by saying, I think you're wrong because

(2) people can and do in fact influence your behavior and you have little control of the matter.

That may sound far-fetched to you right? I gave the example of marketing. On tv, for example, a bulk of people are exposed to an image linked to a product. They are half paying attention to that commercial but than one day they go out looking for, say aspirin. They choose "Bayer (the same commercial they last saw). The reason big companies put millions and millions into marketing is because it works. Do you think the people influenced are aware that they have been persuaded or influenced by an advertisement? In fact, most are not.

Here's another example. Try this little experiment on someone.

Tell a person the following: Say this word.....S....H....O....P (tell them each individual letter without spelling out the word). When they say the word "shop" immediately ask them, "what happens when you come to a green light?" They will probably say "stop" (but that's not really what you do at a red light - in fact, you stop).

The point of this excersize is that you can indeed influence people to do things and it's not that these people "let" you influenced them. These people just failed to detect the stimulus that influenced them (i.e., the phonetic sound pattern of "SHOP"...). In other words, the influencing stimuli "flies beneath the radar" and that's how it succeeds in influencing the target.

Now suppose you do the same experiment but first forewarn the to-be-"persuaded" target beforehand that you are going to say a word that primes them to say the wrong answer to a follow-up question. In that case, the trick is less likely to work because he or she is more likely going to detect the "shop-stop" error because they are now more vigilant (i.e., he or she is looking for it).

In summary, people can indeed make you do something without you letting them because they are in control of the persuasive stimuli and the persuadee is caught unaware. The example of marketing (and the example I gave above) demonstrate that point. Do you understand now? The difference between what I said before and what I'm saying now is that I work out my point in more detail.

Check this idea out Logan. When you feel a person is in "left field," you may want to consider the possibility that you are failing to get the point they are making. You can just ask, "what do you mean?" or what are you talking about?

Not all points are going to be black and white. Some will be more subtle and nuanced and may require less black and white thinking, less quick confidence answers, greater concentration, greater patience and perhaps a good re-reading before you conclude that it's "in left-field." So, you can always choose to suspend judgement and just re-read or ask the person to clarify and you just never know.....maybe it will make sense. Or, maybe not. It's more noble to try to understand rather than reflexively dismiss.

Please come in from left field............

[Logan13]

Either I'm in left field or you're failing to understand. Hmmmmm. I wonder which?

Maybe this will help. Let's review.

(1) You say no one can make us act in any way unless you let them.

Although my point is beside the general topic you guys were talking about, I responded to this specific statement by saying, I think you're wrong because

(2) people can and do in fact influence your behavior and you have little control of the matter.

That may sound far-fetched to you right? I gave the example of marketing. On tv, for example, a bulk of people are exposed to an image linked to a product. They are half paying attention to that commercial but than one day they go out looking for, say aspirin. They choose "Bayer (the same commercial they last saw). The reason big companies put millions and millions into marketing is because it works. Do you think the people influenced are aware that they have been persuaded or influenced by an advertisement? In fact, most are not.

Here's another example. Try this little experiment on someone.

Tell a person the following: Say this word.....S....H....O....P (tell them each individual letter without spelling out the word). When they say the word "shop" immediately ask them, "what happens when you come to a green light?" They will probably say "stop" (but that's not really what you do at a red light - in fact, you stop).

The point of this excersize is that you can indeed influence people to do things and it's not that these people "let" you influenced them. These people just failed to detect the stimulus that influenced them (i.e., the phonetic sound pattern of "SHOP"...). In other words, the influencing stimuli "flies beneath the radar" and that's how it succeeds in influencing the target.

Now suppose you do the same experiment but first forewarn the to-be-"persuaded" target beforehand that you are going to say a word that primes them to say the wrong answer to a follow-up question. In that case, the trick is less likely to work because he or she is more likely going to detect the "shop-stop" error because they are now more vigilant (i.e., he or she is looking for it).

In summary, people can indeed make you do something without you letting them because they are in control of the persuasive stimuli and the persuadee is caught unaware. The example of marketing (and the example I gave above) demonstrate that point. Do you understand now? The difference between what I said before and what I'm saying now is that I work out my point in more detail.

Check this idea out Logan. When you feel a person is in "left field," you may want to consider the possibility that you are failing to get the point they are making. You can just ask, "what do you mean?" or what are you talking about?

Not all points are going to be black and white. Some will be more subtle and nuanced and may require less black and white thinking, less quick confidence answers, greater concentration, greater patience and perhaps a good re-reading before you conclude that it's "in left-field." So, you can always choose to suspend judgement and just re-read or ask the person to clarify and you just never know.....maybe it will make sense. Or, maybe not. It's more noble to try to understand rather than reflexively dismiss.

Or perhaps this person is simply in left field........

[Phreak101]

Here's another example. Try this little experiment on someone.

Tell a person the following: Say this word.....S....H....O....P (tell them each individual letter without spelling out the word). When they say the word "shop" immediately ask them, "what happens when you come to a green light?" They will probably say "stop" (but that's not really what you do at a red light - in fact, you stop).

I confoosed

[Logan13]

I confoosed

Mike tends to do that to people...........

[givemethejuice]

I'm trying to tell ya young grasshopper...your type of mature attitude, and your need to express simple opinions are not tolerated...You did note the verbal slapping you got from Carlos right?? Need to learn your place....and quick.

I know this place is getting out of hand. I even said I was sorry and he still had to retort with a smart ass comment. Why? Like I don't know it is for the admin's to decide. I was just stating an opinion. I have been on and off this site for the last couple of years and can't beleive the stuff that is going on around here. But i am going to leave that alone.
Carlos, I admire you for your hard work and dedication and I can't imagine the things you have had to put up with in your life being a strong willed gay black man but please chill out a little and get off the defensive some time. You have to learn to relax and enjoy things a little. Like you said, things are getting better now! Also, good luck on the show, I see first place in your future judging by your avy.

[Carlos_E]

I have been on and off this site for the last couple of years and can't beleive the stuff that is going on around here. But i am going to leave that alone.

You need to spend more time reading. There is a rule DO NOT ASK OR QUESTION WHY SOMEONE IS SUSPENED OR BANNED! You asked, hence my reply.

[Mike Dura]

I can appreciate that you are trying to the best of your capacities to grasp the world around you. How can you be faulted for that?

Or perhaps this person is simply in left field........

[Mike Dura]

I was a bit off topic by adressing a single sentence from Logan. I was in the mood to "split hairs" hairs that day.

I confoosed

[Logan13]

I was a bit off topic by adressing a single sentence from Logan. I was in the mood to "split hairs" hairs that day.

You give yourself too much credit. The world is not as hard to figure out as you make it. Damn, it must be hell to get an actual decision out of you in a timely fashion. You kind of remind me of Cliff Clavin from that sitcom Cheers, although you replace worthless trivia with worthless, open-ended rants. I find you amusing.
Example of a conversation with Mike:
Logan13: "I am thinking of painting my living room this color red, what do you think Mike?"
Mike: Well, what is red really. Who is to say that the red that you see is the same red that I see?
Logan13: What? It is the red that is on this swatch here in front of you.
Mike: All that I am saying is that my interpretation of red may be different than yours.
Logan13: So do you like it or not?
Mike: I do not think that I can give you a definitive answer at this time, nor can anyone else for that matter.
Logan13: Get the **** out........

[Mike Dura]

Lol. That's funny! Although there's a grain of truth to what you are saying, I think there is a value to open-ended discusion when it comes to certain topics. An open-ended inquiry means that one is suspending judgement. This way tends to raise questions and gives room for others to enter new space and make further inquiry. On the other hand, one has to take action and so you have to make a decision and act.

But there's no doubt that some favor answers and some prefer questions. You and I are opposites in that way. And as it turns out, on the whole, conservatives and progressives are opposites in that way as well.

You give yourself too much credit. The world is not as hard to figure out as you make it. Damn, it must be hell to get an actual decision out of you in a timely fashion. You kind of remind me of Cliff Clavin from that sitcom Cheers, although you replace worthless trivia with worthless, open-ended rants. I find you amusing.
Example of a conversation with Mike:
Logan13: "I am thinking of painting my living room this color red, what do you think Mike?"
Mike: Well, what is red really. Who is to say that the red that you see is the same red that I see?
Logan13: What? It is the red that is on this swatch here in front of you.
Mike: All that I am saying is that my interpretation of red may be different than yours.
Logan13: So do you like it or not?
Mike: I do not think that I can give you a definitive answer at this time, nor can anyone else for that matter.
Logan13: Get the **** out........

[Kärnfysikern]

Logan13: "I am thinking of painting my living room this color red, what do you think Mike?"
Mike: Well, what is red really. Who is to say that the red that you see is the same red that I see?
Logan13: What? It is the red that is on this swatch here in front of you.
Mike: All that I am saying is that my interpretation of red may be different than yours.
Logan13: So do you like it or not?
Mike: I do not think that I can give you a definitive answer at this time, nor can anyone else for that matter.
Logan13: Get the **** out........

[Logan13]

Lol. That's funny! Although there's a grain of truth to what you are saying, I think there is a value to open-ended discusion when it comes to certain topics. An open-ended inquiry means that one is suspending judgement. This way tends to raise questions and gives room for others to enter new space and make further inquiry. On the other hand, one has to take action and so you have to make a decision and act.

But there's no doubt that some favor answers and some prefer questions. You and I are opposites in that way. And as it turns out, on the whole, conservatives and progressives are opposites in that way as well.

Being at the opposite ends of the spectrum, I am sure that at some point we may broaden one-another's views. That's probably why we keep responding to each other.