What is scientology? 48 hours

[Bojangles69]

Missconception regarding the use of the word "theory" in science.

Everything in science is theories. Everything from the "laws" of gravity to chemistry to the metabolism in your cells.

They are theories becuase as script said they can not be proven to be right. You can put a theory to a billion tests, and even if it passes every test you have not proven the theory. Because there is nothing excluding the possibility that the next test wont fail it.

If I drop a rock 1 000 000 000 times I verify theory of gravity, but there is nothing excluding the possibility that the 1 000 000 001 time I drop the rock it will fly into space instead of falling to the ground. We just choose to accept that if something has happened a billion times it is likely it will happen every time.

This is how all of science works, we check what the theory predicts and we se if that is true in the real world. If it is true we move on and test it in another way.

So saying evolution might be wrong because it is a theory is the same as saying that quantum mechanics might be wrong because it is just a theory. But all the semi conductors in my computer verify quantum mechanics everytime I turn on my computer, and evolution is verified everytime I wake up in the morning.

No absolutely not. Science does NOT = theory. Science is:

a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.

Pay attention to TRUTH and FACTS.
Psychology is as much a science as it uses experimentation (one aspect of science) to test theories. It is however not an absolute science at all. Either is evolutionary psych or phisophy.
Science does not become science untill theories can be proven.
ie: H2SO4 (sulfuric acid) + NaNO3 (sodium nitrate) ALWAYS = Nitric Acid + Sodium Sulfate. That is ABSOLUTE SCIENCE.

[Kärnfysikern]

No absolutely not. Science does NOT = theory. Science is:

a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.

Pay attention to TRUTH and FACTS.
Psychology is as much a science as it uses experimentation (one aspect of science) to test theories. It is however not an absolute science at all. Either is evolutionary psych or phisophy.
Science does not become science untill theories can be proven.
ie: H2SO4 (sulfuric acid) + NaNO3 (sodium nitrate) ALWAYS = Nitric Acid + Sodium Sulfate. That is ABSOLUTE SCIENCE.

Im afriad you didnt understand my post or missed the point of it.

In science when something is a "theory" it is accepted. Untill it becomes accepted it is a hypothesis. Theory is not used in the avarage joe way.

Einstein put forward the hypothesis that all natural laws are the same in all intertial systems and the speed of light is the same in all systems. When this was verified we had the special theory of relativity. But it is still a theory.

Newton put forward the hypothesis that gravity decreases with the square of the distance, when it got verified we have the theory of gravity.

deBroglie put forward the hypothesis that particles behave as waves with a wavelengt equal to h-bar/momentum. When it get verified we got a theory of the wave particle duality of nature.

And so on. Science starts with one or a few hypothesis that creates the frame of a theory. But it doesnt get accepted as a theory untill the hypothesis has been proven to be true under testable circumstances.

A theory can NEVER be proven, it is impossible. You can never logicaly exclude the possibility of a theory beeing falsified. Because the foundation of a scientific theory is that it is falsifiable(i.e testable). You can never know in advance if a new experiment will show a theory wrong.

You can do the above reaction a billion times. But you can NOT exclude the possibility that the reaction will proceed in the same manner the next time you do it. That is why a theory can not be proven to be true.

The most we can say about a theory is that it is valid under all the circumstances we have tested it. Claiming anything else is guesswork and not science.

Then I havent even talked about the fact that a hypothesis is not provable. It is something we assume to be true in order to have anything to even make a theory out of.

[Phreak101]

No absolutely not. Science does NOT = theory. Science is:

a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.

Pay attention to TRUTH and FACTS.
Psychology is as much a science as it uses experimentation (one aspect of science) to test theories. It is however not an absolute science at all. Either is evolutionary psych or phisophy.
Science does not become science untill theories can be proven.
ie: H2SO4 (sulfuric acid) + NaNO3 (sodium nitrate) ALWAYS = Nitric Acid + Sodium Sulfate. That is ABSOLUTE SCIENCE.

I would imagine it is only as absolute relative to what we know about these chemicals. For all you know these chemicals, when superheated to many times above Kelvin, could produce different chemicals. No one really knows what would happen if we cannot measure and determine any and ALL situations. That's the problem with relativity and the big bang, hence theory.

I think Johan is correct on this one.

[Kärnfysikern]

ie: H2SO4 (sulfuric acid) + NaNO3 (sodium nitrate) ALWAYS = Nitric Acid + Sodium Sulfate. That is ABSOLUTE SCIENCE.

to show my point. The above bolded part in the quote is a assumption based on previous experiments. It its not a absolute fact, it is something we take for granted since it has happened a billion times before. But you can not logicaly prove it will be correct the next time H2SO4 reacts with NaNO3.

[biglouie250]

.
ie: H2SO4 (sulfuric acid) + NaNO3 (sodium nitrate) ALWAYS = Nitric Acid + Sodium Sulfate. That is ABSOLUTE SCIENCE.

a prerequisite for every scientific formula is the phrase "at constant pressure and tempature" so if the pressure is too high or low or the temp is too high or low this equation does not happen.

[Bojangles69]

a prerequisite for every scientific formula is the phrase "at constant pressure and tempature" so if the pressure is too high or low or the temp is too high or low this equation does not happen.

True. It was from my mind not a chem book but evenso they do have a science for different pressures and temp for each and every chemical reaction known.

Thats why that is a science. For certain temp and pressures specific reactions ALWAYS occur. Chemistry is an abosolute science, so is physics. They are built on a foundation of facts. A+B=C

[biglouie250]

True. It was from my mind not a chem book but evenso they do have a science for different pressures and temp for each and every chemical reaction known.

Thats why that is a science. For certain temp and pressures specific reactions ALWAYS occur. Chemistry is an abosolute science, so is physics. They are built on a foundation of facts. A+B=C

i hear ya, i just felt like being a douchy pundent. lol. tuedays suck.

[Kärnfysikern]

Thats why that is a science. For certain temp and pressures specific reactions ALWAYS occur. Chemistry is an abosolute science, so is physics. They are built on a foundation of facts. A+B=C

Well I am not disputing that it does happen and that it will always happen. Remember I am studying physics. I dont doubt that the rock will fall down to earth when I drop it from my hand.

But it is a assumption that if it happens now it will always happen given the same circumstances. There is no getting around that assumption. It is on that assumption we build all of science. We assume the universe are following certain rules that does not change.

That is why scientific theories are theories and not truth. No scientific theory can be proven to be 100% correct. This is a philosophical issue and not a issue with science. You can not prove the universe follows rules, you can just show it looks like the universe does.

Thats why its not putting down evolution by stating it is just a theory. Saying that is acctualy saying that evolution is solid enough to be a accepted model of how life develops. Its just that the creationists are to stupid to understand that

[Bojangles69]

It is a assumption that if it happens now it will always happen given the same circumstances. There is no getting around that assumption. It is on that assumption we build all of science. We assume the universe are following certain rules that does not change.

That is why scientific theories are theories and not truth.

*seemed to pass this one by


That sentence LARGELY contradicts itself. How can that be an assumption?

Thats like saying water freezes at 0c at constant atm pressure BUT we're only assuming this because if the circumstances never change (ie: atm pressure) ... the boiling temp will?? If that confused you than you understood it. Even if a typo there is ABSOLUTELY NO assuming going on when you say
at normal atm pressure water boils at Oc.

This is not *assuming* that the "universe follows certain rules" this IS KNOWING it does. Or more properly this is KNOWING when man interacts with his environment in specific scientific ways, scientific LAWS and RULES will always be abided.

I can't even see how socrates, plato, aristotle or any philosopher could argue against the fact that the Earth follows its own laws. I can see how a philosopher would pick apart that previous statement and say man makes the laws, not earth. But not quite, the laws existed before man got here, it just took him about 6-7 million years to figure them out.

And there is absolutey no assuming the laws were different in the past. Even if atm pressure was lower or higher bac then, the boiling pt of water still follows the SAME exact laws. For every individual atm pressure there is a temperature it MUST boil at. Nothing will affect that besides pressure or temperature. That is a law the universe had always had, and man only noticed it.

[Kärnfysikern]

Thats like saying water freezes at 0c at constant atm pressure BUT we're only assuming this because if the circumstances never change (ie: atm pressure) ... the boiling temp will?? If that confused you than you understood it. Even if a typo there is ABSOLUTELY NO assuming going on when you say
at normal atm pressure water boils at Oc.

It is a assumption. If I drop a rock a million times, I can still not say that its certain that it will fall to the ground the next time I drop it. I assume it does it because I assume the world works according to rules and laws that do not change. But there is no way to prove that the world works according to rules.

Considere these 3 different universes.

We have a universe ruled by laws. Everytime you drop a rock it falls to the ground.

The other universe is ruled by chaning laws. They change every trillion years. You drop a rock a billion times and it falls to the ground, but drop it a trillion years later and it will fly into the air.

The third universe is governed by a god that toys with the laws. He watches you drop the rock a billion times and makes it fall to the ground. But decides the billion one time you drop it it will fly into the air.

There is no way to experimentaly determine which one of those 3 are correct since they all have the exact same experimental result now.

Silly example yes, but it is no less true because its silly.

This is not *assuming* that the "universe follows certain rules" this IS KNOWING it does. Or more properly this is KNOWING when man interacts with his environment in specific scientific ways, scientific LAWS and RULES will always be abided.

We only know that the universe seems to obey laws since we have never observed it not obeying laws.

The only thing science can do is describe how nature behaves. Science can not say anything about the nature of the universe or if the behavior is absolute.

And there is absolutey no assuming the laws were different in the past. Even if atm pressure was lower or higher bac then, the boiling pt of water still follows the SAME exact laws. For every individual atm pressure there is a temperature it MUST boil at. Nothing will affect that besides pressure or temperature. That is a law the universe had always had, and man only noticed it.

Yes it has been like that aslong as we have been around. But we can never say how its going to be a million years from now. We can resonably assume that it will be the same. But you can not guarante that because you do not know what determines the laws.

Science is based on the assumption that the universe follows laws. But thats it. Science can not make any claims above and beyond that.

I think it was Einstein that sometime expressed how remarkable it is that nature is at all comprehensible, that its unbelivable that nature indeed seem to follow laws.