oral cycle

[notorious_mem]

Actually it was manpretty massive gsxxr and myself but it was kicked off by manpretty and gsxxr... and Ill thank you not to use offensive language when you address me expletives or not.

lol drink some tea and eat a biscuit.and have a happy new year.lol

[G-1000]

lol drink some tea and eat a biscuit.and have a happy new year.lol

were the hell did you get that from

[notorious_mem]

were the hell did you get that from

from the heart.

[beuleux]

You wont to know the funny thing. I dont even know who is who by the screen name. I just look at teh avatar.

yeh me too someone changes an avy and it really throws me, I dont even recognise my owns posts sometimes LOL

[acessorized]

ok thanks for the imput it turned more into a knowledge debate than anything else but from what ive briefly read var can only be taken on its own cause when you look up each individual steroid it doesnt explain that side of things and if it has a cycle mentioned its accompanied with an injectable...which leaves me to believe u cant take it on its own??

[evil pepsi]

no fella i actuall have a problem eith you not backing this up because your advice here is crap

you do not get sexual disfunction from a dbolonly cycle.....you see why id like you to prove that something is right.....for example i could say you will get a strenght increase of 5000 pounds on your bench.....but how do you know thats true....well id try and prove it and then fail....thus people know im full of garbage

ok, lets have an intro to statistics lesson here. everyone familiar with samples and how they apply to a population? its one way to establish the norm.
you take a survey, of sorts, asking about gains people have made on an oral only cycle, and you also ask how many pounds they retained from that cycle without going back on, and how many they still retained on -1 day before the next cycle. you can also plot this data to establish the rate at which gains decrease, plateau, etc...
now you survey people on another form of cycle, whether its oral and injectable, injectable only, etc...
both sample sizes represent a population of sorts.
next, you factor that into an equation, and determine your standard deviations. not familiar with that? research it.
the evidence is there. its on this board. its in hundreds of posts from people stating their experiences.
its called general consensus. you want to dispute it? YOU prove it wrong. you called him out, so burden of proof falls back on you...

geez guys, i hope my attempt at sarcasm shows just how stupid all of this is. let them go research hepatoxicity, jaundice, hepatic panel, and so on.
to each his own...

[Mista Massive]

yeah i hear you guys .....i know most people dont like to be challenged...i just think some people (including myself at times) overstate, are undereducated, or just make up things (massive)


here this will make you guys feel better i dont know anything dont listen to me....feel better? you want me to send over someone to cup your balls too?

hey newbie, i mean manpretty, just cos u are afraid to jab, doesn't mean everyone else here is as scare as you. stop trying to justify the fact that needles are scary and you'd rather just pop some pills. and no, i didn't make that up

[Hellmaskbanned]

Personally, Orals Produce more/better/qiucker gains than injectables.

Orals spaced throughout long esterd injectable cycles is my fav.

[Manpretty]

hey newbie, i mean manpretty, just cos u are afraid to jab, doesn't mean everyone else here is as scare as you. stop trying to justify the fact that needles are scary and you'd rather just pop some pills. and no, i didn't make that up

hmmmm did you read narks responce to your comments in the other thread and now hellmask's in this thread?.......

anyway man lets leave it at that i doubt we will ever see eye to eye....and lets remember the board is not for personal vendetta's its to try and learn from others....i was just pointing out to the board members that they sould take your advice with a grain of salt....it your prerogative to give bad/unfounded advice if you want

im done with you massive

manpretty

[Manpretty]

ok, lets have an intro to statistics lesson here. everyone familiar with samples and how they apply to a population? its one way to establish the norm.
you take a survey, of sorts, asking about gains people have made on an oral only cycle, and you also ask how many pounds they retained from that cycle without going back on, and how many they still retained on -1 day before the next cycle. you can also plot this data to establish the rate at which gains decrease, plateau, etc...
now you survey people on another form of cycle, whether its oral and injectable, injectable only, etc...
both sample sizes represent a population of sorts.
next, you factor that into an equation, and determine your standard deviations. not familiar with that? research it.
the evidence is there. its on this board. its in hundreds of posts from people stating their experiences.
its called general consensus. you want to dispute it? YOU prove it wrong. you called him out, so burden of proof falls back on you...

geez guys, i hope my attempt at sarcasm shows just how stupid all of this is. let them go research hepatoxicity, jaundice, hepatic panel, and so on.
to each his own...

please rewrite, that is so poorly written i cant undersatnd what your point was

[evil pepsi]

please rewrite, that is so poorly written i cant undersatnd what your point was

then it clearly was too advanced for you, and therefore, you really should refrain from further response on this thread...

[Manpretty]

is there a reason why you dont want to inject? is it fear of the shots?
nothing worth having in life comes easy. if you do an oral cycle, you will lose most, if not all, when you come off...

lets remember the type of advice you give evil, alright?
no need to get your panties in a bunch....suck it up agree your worng and move on

follow this link to see why you were wrong evil

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=277795

[RobbieG]

Great Manpretty, then you can stick it to orals.

go ahead, go for dbols 50 mgs for 15 weeks, or even better, 30 mg M1T for 10 weeks.

then come back, tell us that steroids don´t work, you didn´t even keep 50 % of your gain and the doc wants to operate on you.

btw, I love orals, but for me.. I never go with orals without my Prop.

( you should try steroids for yourself, just get some winstrol/dbol/m1t/anavar/anadrol and use them for 2 weeks, then for the last 2-4 weeks, use prop with them, then you´ll finally figure out why this thread )

[Manpretty]

Great Manpretty, then you can stick it to orals.

go ahead, go for dbols 50 mgs for 15 weeks, or even better, 30 mg M1T for 10 weeks.

then come back, tell us that steroids don´t work, you didn´t even keep 50 % of your gain and the doc wants to operate on you.

btw, I love orals, but for me.. I never go with orals without my Prop.

( you should try steroids for yourself, just get some winstrol/dbol/m1t/anavar/anadrol and use them for 2 weeks, then for the last 2-4 weeks, use prop with them, then you´ll finally figure out why this thread )

orals with prop....im sure thats a great cycle
what are goals inregards to the cycle?

ive never once said injects with oral arent better, and id like you to TRY and quote me saying it.

my point was that orals alone have a bad rep....i was wondering if this is thur fact or fiction......for example if you look how the media portrays steroids in general its mainly all bad..but if you ask all the members on the board im sure youd find a different anwser. i think the media is a) scared and b) uneducated on the matter.......i think you would find that oral only use is similar it is not as bad as it is made out to be and can be quite good if used properly and not abused.....

[Manpretty]

opps i was trying to corrolate oral only use to the media....i hope you saw the connection

[evil pepsi]

lets remember the type of advice you give evil, alright?
no need to get your panties in a bunch....suck it up agree your worng and move on

follow this link to see why you were wrong evil

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=277795

ok sparky, lets clear a few things up.
first, your style of posting and arguing is very similar to that guy that posts as theaccountant.
second, you really need to form an opinion of your own before you go swinging from someone elses nutsack.
third, as respected as nark is, that thread is not scientific proof to support you telling anyone they are right or wrong. its simply him telling you his thoughts on it.
there is this thing in the scientific community called a scientific principle. before it can become one, it has to be accepted by the entire scientific community as irrefutable. this means that if someone states that gravity will make an object fall to the ground, in order for that to be wrong, someone has to prove that under the same conditions that they can have an object of the same density/mass rise/float etc. this means for this hypothesis to be refuted, you have to be able to reproduce it every time, under the same conditions. no exceptions. i tried to keep this simple for you.
for the sake of your argument, you have to prove that there has never been, nor will there ever be, a person that loses "most, if not all."
when this can be proven in the realm of science, then you can say im wrong. too many people have posted their experiences over the years to prove you can never make such a claim.
so lets simplify it some.
i say people can lose most, if not all after an oral only cycle. i can make this statement because its happened before.
as respected as nark is (and this is not a dig on him, as he knows more about gear than i probably ever will. its just me pointing out that you simply used him), his responses to you were based on his own observations, not empirical evidence gathered in a scientific fashion. does this make him wrong? no. does it make him 100% correct? no. you went to a highly-respected member not for support, but because you are too lazy to do the research yourself, and you figured he already did it at some point in the past.
does it allow you to go off on people and try to bash them? no, ignorance does that.

this is my last response to you about this, as its pretty clear all you want to do is try to stir people up and then post insults, much like theaccountant...

[*Narkissos*]

ok, lets have an intro to statistics lesson here. everyone familiar with samples and how they apply to a population? its one way to establish the norm.
you take a survey, of sorts, asking about gains people have made on an oral only cycle, and you also ask how many pounds they retained from that cycle without going back on, and how many they still retained on -1 day before the next cycle. you can also plot this data to establish the rate at which gains decrease, plateau, etc...
now you survey people on another form of cycle, whether its oral and injectable, injectable only, etc...
both sample sizes represent a population of sorts.
next, you factor that into an equation, and determine your standard deviations. not familiar with that? research it.

Show me a completed statistical analysis on this board Mr. Researcher.

the evidence is there. its on this board. its in hundreds of posts from people stating their experiences.
its called general consensus. you want to dispute it?

Depending on general consensus is laughable.. In fact, let me add my "LMAO!" pre-emptively..

There's one fact that runs tru-out the message board community:

That is, most of the guys lie...and regurgitate.

Ask for the personal experience on (e.g.) winny.. and you'll get the general consensus:

"Dries you out.. hurts my joints"

"My" being in bold and italics, simply because the same poster will start a thread 3 months later asking for input on the use of winny in his cycle.. be cause he HAS NO PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH THE COMPOUND.

YOU prove it wrong. you called him out, so burden of proof falls back on you...

Actually to the contrary..the burden is on the guy who posts a 'fact' to have supporting evidence to validate it.

If it were not so.. myths would never have been dimissed on the message boards...

geez guys, i hope my attempt at sarcasm shows just how stupid all of this is.

Again to the contrary... Your sarcasm shows nothing except you wanting to reply to a thread...not adding anything of substance.

let them go research hepatoxicity, jaundice, hepatic panel, and so on.

Further, it's already been stated the limiting factor in the application of oral steroids is their individual hepatoxicity (among other potential sides: including effect on lipid values etc.)

This does not reduce their applicability.. but reduces the potential duration thereof.

This is to say, you cannot argue against an oral-only cycle of standard duration on the grounds of hepatoxicity..but yet be 'all for' an oral + injectable cycle which utilises a 6 week ora kick start (and furthermore... utilises toxic injectables like tren).

It is counterintuitive.

[Manpretty]

ok sparky, lets clear a few things up.
first, your style of posting and arguing is very similar to that guy that posts as theaccountant.
second, you really need to form an opinion of your own before you go swinging from someone elses nutsack.
third, as respected as nark is, that thread is not scientific proof to support you telling anyone they are right or wrong. its simply him telling you his thoughts on it.
there is this thing in the scientific community called a scientific principle. before it can become one, it has to be accepted by the entire scientific community as irrefutable. this means that if someone states that gravity will make an object fall to the ground, in order for that to be wrong, someone has to prove that under the same conditions that they can have an object of the same density/mass rise/float etc. this means for this hypothesis to be refuted, you have to be able to reproduce it every time, under the same conditions. no exceptions. i tried to keep this simple for you.
for the sake of your argument, you have to prove that there has never been, nor will there ever be, a person that loses "most, if not all."
when this can be proven in the realm of science, then you can say im wrong. too many people have posted their experiences over the years to prove you can never make such a claim.
so lets simplify it some.
i say people can lose most, if not all after an oral only cycle. i can make this statement because its happened before.
as respected as nark is (and this is not a dig on him, as he knows more about gear than i probably ever will. its just me pointing out that you simply used him), his responses to you were based on his own observations, not empirical evidence gathered in a scientific fashion. does this make him wrong? no. does it make him 100% correct? no. you went to a highly-respected member not for support, but because you are too lazy to do the research yourself, and you figured he already did it at some point in the past.
does it allow you to go off on people and try to bash them? no, ignorance does that.

this is my last response to you about this, as its pretty clear all you want to do is try to stir people up and then post insults, much like theaccountant...

if there is research on this i dont know where to find it...that is why i asked nark.....and thnak you for the grade 11 physics lesson there.....ps using your line of thought orals and inject should be considered equal because there are people that have lost ALL their gains from injects too....

[*Narkissos*]

hey newbie, i mean manpretty, just cos u are afraid to jab, doesn't mean everyone else here is as scare as you. stop trying to justify the fact that needles are scary and you'd rather just pop some pills. and no, i didn't make that up

What is this?

Kindergarden?

He asked for a logical debate..and all you have supplied so far is flames...and taunts.

This is a message board.

His question is not stupid... It isn't a typical 'can you drink winny'.. type question.

So what is your problem?

[Mista Massive]

What is this?

Kindergarden?

He asked for a logical debate..and all you have supplied so far is flames...and taunts.

This is a message board.

His question is not stupid... It isn't a typical 'can you drink winny'.. type question.
So what is your problem?

when did he ask for a (logical) debate?

and i never said his question was stupid. what question are you referring to exactly? he was just claiming that orals alone, can be just as effective, if not more effective with better keep gains than injectables such as testosterone.

he did not sart this thread. accessorized did. he had a legitamite question which still is yet to be answered.

and i am still yet to see that scientific evidence that manpretty was asking for. nark's comments on the situation were just HIS thoughts, through HIS research and studies. how does that make it concrete scientific evidence??

accessorized, i'll bet you are more confused than ever now.

unfortunatley mate, there is no yes or no answer in this situation. i think you will have to use your best judgement and review member's experineces with particular steroids. that is the best way to reach your decision

[evil pepsi]

Show me a completed statistical analysis on this board Mr. Researcher.

show me one to the contrary. the simple fact that so many have posted their results, for or against, is not enough for him to state someone is wrong. that is the point i am stressing. rather than provide something of substance, all he did was tell people they were wrong simply because he did not agree. he did not have anything to counter with, other than he did not want to accept it.

Depending on general consensus is laughable.. In fact, let me add my "LMAO!" pre-emptively..

There's one fact that runs tru-out the message board community:

That is, most of the guys lie...and regurgitate.

thats a topic for another debate. why lie about losing gains? i guess thats really something none of us will ever really know. i didnt even think about that aspect of it.

Ask for the personal experience on (e.g.) winny.. and you'll get the general consensus:

"Dries you out.. hurts my joints"

"My" being in bold and italics, simply because the same poster will start a thread 3 months later asking for input on the use of winny in his cycle.. be cause he HAS NO PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH THE COMPOUND.

never had that problem with it, so i cant relate.


Actually to the contrary..the burden is on the guy who posts a 'fact' to have supporting evidence to validate it.

If it were not so.. myths would never have been dimissed on the message boards...

a valid argument is one that can be supported on both sides. if i believe the sky is green, even though its easy to prove otherwise, if you tell me its blue, based on your observations, and i still say green, if i cant provide evidence to support it, who has the weaker argument?
its a basic rule of scientific principles that if you dispute something as false, be prepared to prove it either way. to prove valid, one must be able to prove that no exceptions exist. this whole scenario came not out of what is right or wrong, but one person not wanting to research something and instead just tell people they are wrong, possibly to prompt that person to actually do the research for him




Again to the contrary... Your sarcasm shows nothing except you wanting to reply to a thread...not adding anything of substance.




Further, it's already been stated the limiting factor in the application of oral steroids is their individual hepatoxicity (among other potential sides: including effect on lipid values etc.)

This does not reduce their applicability.. but reduces the potential duration thereof.

This is to say, you cannot argue against an oral-only cycle of standard duration on the grounds of hepatoxicity..but yet be 'all for' an oral + injectable cycle which utilises a 6 week ora kick start (and furthermore... utilises toxic injectables like tren).

It is counterintuitive.
agreed, but at the same time, if you think about it, the whole premise of it is to advise someone not wanting to research something himself that an all oral cycle can have some serious effects on his liver, and i also provided things for him to actually research.
the thing is, to simply say its perfectly safe to do an oral cycle is to lead the blind towards a cliff and say 'watch your step.' there is no such thing as a 100% safe cycle, but for those wanting to avoid the needle, they need to be aware of the possible implications of such a cycle and its increased risks, such as toxic hepatitis, jaundice, or any other degenerative liver condition.
by refusing to actually do the research, someone may feel the need to not research the benefits of a hepatic panel or even a comprehensive metabolic panel.

my point is this-if he wont research the benefits on his own, do you really think he will research the risks?

[*Narkissos*]

when did he ask for a (logical) debate?

Go back to the beginning of the thread

http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...0054&postcount=
http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=11

He asked for scientific evidence.

And i respect the fact that he wants to know.. as opposed to wanting to blindly follow.

Research alone will not provide a definative answer.

This is a message board.. Last i checked, what we do here is research and discuss... as research is subject to interpretation.

Each person's contribution influences the scope of theories/ideas..

and i never said his question was stupid. what question are you referring to exactly? he was just claiming that orals alone, can be just as effective, if not more effective with better keep gains than injectables such as testosterone.

And where did you read this?

As far as i can see, he was asking for jusitification of the common board train of thought.

he did not sart this thread. accessorized did.

Yea? Really? <--sarcasm

/end sarcasm

he had a legitamite question which still is yet to be answered.

Then..why not try to answer it?

and i am still yet to see that scientific evidence that manpretty was asking for. nark's comments on the situation were just HIS thoughts, through HIS research and studies. how does that make it concrete scientific evidence??

It doesn't

It makes it a hypothesis.. based on the interpretation of scientific documentation... and personal experience.

Sure beats the hell out of a non-related copy and paste reply though.

I could post studies still however if it'd appease you.

However like you suggested... If you want info i'm sure you could google it.


Re: http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...41&postcount=2

unfortunatley mate, there is no yes or no answer in this situation. i think you will have to use your best judgement and review member's experineces with particular steroids. that is the best way to reach your decision

Agreed

[acessorized]

yes i am more confussed now ..heard both debates and all this scientific stuff has lost me with no clear answer but var...guys im not after scientific evaluation just experience etc....

[Mista Massive]

ok, i am so over this. i hope accessorized this shed SOME light on your pending cycle decisions. best of luck and don't be afraid to ask ANYONE any questions. you will need the whole range of the spectrum on this situation. and i think it is excellent to have so many different opinions. got a little too heated for my liking, but shit. we are guys. on synthetic test, or natural test, it's our nature to defend our beliefs and decisions. wrong or right.

[vermin]

Bizarre turn to a thread. Not sure if this will help anyone, like the guy who started the thread, but here's some stuff to think about:

1. It sounds like you have some oral AAS, and now are looking for something to do with it. If I misunderstand, please forgive, but this is generally the worst way to go about planning entry into the world of AAS. I can elaborate as to why this is if you need me to, but if you stop and think about it I think you will recognize this as a fundamentally "cart before the horse" situation.

2. I do not use, and probably never will use, orals like DBol. If you follow some of the steps below, you make come to the same conclusion.

3. When considering some substance or course of action "in the AAS world", here's what I do (this is assuming I have goals and such in line):

a. I begin by reading the profile at the top of the site. So, for DBol, this would be: http://www.steroid.com/Dianabol.php.

b. After reading there, I then refer to the nearly identical profile inside the site, such as: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=199829 for DBol. Why? They are formatted differently, organized differently, sometimes have slightly different information, and the outside is better for references while the inside is better for charts and graphs and such.

c. I then begin to search and read threads in this site, and a few others, like http://anthony-roberts.com.

d. I also use the references in the profiles to find and read research articles of interest from the profiles. I also use the references in those articles to find others of interest, as well as doing searches in those relevant journals on the topic. For example, for DBol Clin Sci (Lond). 1981 Apr;60(4):457-61 seems like an excellent place to start. If you are not accustomed to reading scientific articles, begin by reviewing the abstracts at the beginning, then move on to the discussion/conclusions section as you become more comfortable. Some of the nuances of sections like "methods" may never mean that much to you unless you have training in experimental design, but that's OK, these sections usually are not necessary to get the gist of what is being done.

e. At this point, if I am still interested, I will begin to participate in, or even start, threads on the subject. This is important because the research articles will provide nice, peer-reviewed evidence that is typically at best parallel or ancillary to the interests of a performance athlete. At this stage, we are asking for anecdotal evidence from those with experience - a two edged sword, at least, because anecdotal evidence from even the best sources is suspect - and this is from a bunch of anonymous Internet dudes. Still, if you spend time in the community there are folks who you may begin to respect and, perhaps just as critically, who may have experiences similar to yours with AAS, and thus your personal responses to substances may mirror theirs.

4. Other things to try to remember:

a. Try to keep a sense of humor. If you try to think of this site more like a bunch of guys at the gym hanging out at the water cooler and act appropriately you will probably have more fun. Basically it is about the same as that, so if you can do OK in that situation you can do OK here.

b. Your first foray or two into AAS, even with all of the above, probably won't be textbook. Are you an MD? Even a nurse? What about just having a graduate degree in biology or chemistry or pharmacy or similar? You are messing with stuff that folks like that put their life effort into figuring out, so take it easy and realize that you will make mistakes - research will keep them from being critical mistakes.

c. Eat, sleep, train.

[Mista Massive]

sound advice

[*Narkissos*]

yes i am more confussed now ..heard both debates and all this scientific stuff has lost me with no clear answer but var...guys im not after scientific evaluation just experience etc....

No need to be confused bro.

Var you can run alone... but i wouldn't. Personally the effective dose in my opinion isn't cost effective imo...

Dbol alone, as per your opening question, would not be advisable.

I've run tbol in conjunction with other drugs..and gained nothing.

...so personally i couldn't shed any light on the feasibility of running it alone.

Personally i wouldn't.

Winstrol i've run alone.. and liked. No libido problems.. No joint problems. Just LBM and and strength gains.

Any avenue you approach has it's potential benefits..and it potential down sides. Thus it'd serve you best to read all you can on the compounds you have available before you make your decision.

Don't rush into it either.

Steroids aren't a 'must'... they're supplementary.

It'd help if you supplied your stats.. your history (training etc.)..and your goals.

Narkissos

[acessorized]

nark thanks for the post cheers..i posted my stats earlier but im 24 round 100kg 220lb i think. 6ft 184 cm training 5-6 days week for 2 years tried protein powders etc etc etc etc...gota a good sound diet lotsa protein try to have equal amounts of protein and carbs with each main meal with vegies but cut back on carbs alot..i lost alot of weight 5 years ago and have since had two op to remove excess skin from a**omin..i want hardening of the muscles toning up little muscle gain probbaly more cutting than bulking...no matter what i do training, eating ,supplements i do and take nothing seems to give me the results i want.im looking for all round toning up little muscle gain......now the 64000 question what to take... i was gonna run for my first cycle .5000 test/en a week 40 dbol ed with nolva as a pct if thats not what i should be doing any info would be great .any tips of what cycle would suit my goals including all pct etc ...and again guys thanks for all the info and support cheers ...

[RA]

Oral only cycles suck donkey dick. I could see tbol/var because they are less harsh but thats about it. Generally speaking you will see more gains with less sides with injectables.(excluding tren)

[acessorized]

k sweet thanks roidattack...yeh when i do my cycle ill be doing dbol and test/e....