I tried alot of different cycles with prohormones before moving to bigger things and I can tell you from experience what worked for me and what was a waste of time and money. First, IDS MassTabs are amazing I had huge strength gains, gained 18lbs, and kept it all with no sides. But, MassTabs are pretty expensive now sinced they stopped producing them. 3-AD and kilosports-Trenadrol were horrible. I didnt gain a pound and no noticable strength increases. Someone gave me a bottle of Kilosports-Phera Mass and I ran 3weeks at 30mg/daily and had pretty good results, kept 9lbs. I have always heard good things about Havoc, but have no first hand experience with it. Well there is my .02, if youwant to know anything just let me know.