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Hey,
I'm pretty much addicted to the sleep aid right now, I seriously cant sleep without it. I was reading up that taking that inhibits GH levels, I was wondering if anyone had more detailed information on it. Like how long it inhibits GH, if its even noticable, and if its worth the compormise of less sleep?
I would really appreciate feedback on this.
That don't kill me, can only make me stronger
have you tried melatonan?
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"Arginine stimulation test was performed on 36 healthy volunteers from both sexes, in order to determine whether alpha-adrenergic histaminergic or serotoninergic mechanisms was involved in growth hormone (GH) secretion. Arginine alone (30 gr/30 min) induced a clearcut GH response significantly different versus basal values in two different control groups. This response was accompanied by a slight, statistically non-significant, decrease in glucose and FFA levels. The concomitant administration of the alpha-adrenergic blocker phentolamine (0.5 mg/min x 90 min) did not alter the GH secretory pattern elicited by arginine. The addition of the H-1 histaminergic blocker diphenhydramine (50 mg i.v. as bolus 15 min before and 50 mg infused with arginine) completely suppressed the arginine induced GH secretion. Diphenhydramine, was also able to reduce GH basal values. Almost identical results were obtained with cyproheptadine, a serotoninergic, histaminergic and cholinergic blocker agent (2 mg q.i.d.; per os x 2 days and 4 mg per os 120 min before arginine). This drug suppressed arginine induced GH secretion without altering basal GH values. Blood glucose or FFA levels were not altered by any pharmacological manipulation vs. the control arginine group. It is concluded that either histaminergic H-1 or both histaminergic and serotoninergic blockade inhibit GH secretion elicited by arginine. On the other hand an alpha-adrenergic pathway in the arginine action is ruled out."
Found this, so it does inhibit GH completely through arginine, but what about total values? Also, how long does it inhibit GH? I have trouble reading sceintific papers. So is it still worth taking, or would a decrease in quality of sleep for ahwile yield better results?
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Yeah, I take Zinc/Magnesium/B-6/Melatonin before sleep, it dosen't really seem to get the job done though.Originally Posted by l2elapse
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Never heard of this. Might think about switching to Ambien.
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One more thing I have to consider is that im consistantly on ephedra; diphenhydramine is known to upregulate beta receptors, so that added into the equation, is it still worth it/not worth it?
I need the thinkers in here!
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I take 50mg before bed if anyone was wondering the dosages.
Disappointment* Known SCAMMER - Do Not Trust *
Are you serious? .....he's addicted to benadryl ...so recommend switching to ambien ???? wtf ??? To the OP - google : ambien addiction and possibly reconsider this, IMO, poor advice...
As far as gh levels i doubt many if anyone can speak to this specifically ....
Also this study references argenine supplementation and how benadryl negated those effects ...from what i see it says nothing when used under normal circumstances ....
Member
I see, I also found another study, but sadly my education isin't in the area of biology so this dosen't tell me exactly what im looking for unless i'm reading it wrong.
Cholinergic and histaminergic involvement in the growth hormone releasing effect of an enkephalin analog FK 33-824 in man
Abstract: Studies were performed in healthy subjects to ascertain the neurotransmitter systems involved in the growth hormone (GH)-releasing effect of the potent enkephalin analog FK 33-824. Concomitant evaluation of prolactin (PRL) secretion was also performed in the same subjects. FK 33-824 at a dose of 0.5 mg IV elicited a clear-cut rise in plasma GH and PRL concentrations with peak levels at 45 min. Blockade of muscarinic cholinergic receptors by atropine (0.5 mg SC) or histaminergic H1 receptors by diphenhydramine (50 mg IV bolus plus 50 mg infusion) completely suppressed the GH release induced by FK 33-824, without significantly altering the PRL rise induced by the peptide. Pretreatment with the alpha-adrenergic antagonist phentolamine (0.5 mg IV/min for 120 min) or the dopamine receptor blocker metoclopramide (10 mg IV) did not alter the GH-releasing effect of FK 33-824. Phentolamine failed to alter the PRL rise induced by FK 33-824, while combined FK 33-824-metoclopramide administration induced a greater PRL increase than FK 33-824 alone. These results indicate that cholinergic and histaminergic H1 receptors play an important role in the GH-release induced by FK 33-824 in man, whereas this action seems to occur independently of catecholaminergic mediation. The same receptors are not involved in the PRL-releasing effect of the peptide.
Disappointment* Known SCAMMER - Do Not Trust *
again - artifically introduced compound.....synthetic compound at that...
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Who needs a medical degree when you have google?
Ambien is taken for a week or two. People experience a single night of difficulty sleeping after having used the drug for the recommended duration and then stopping. If the OP has been using benadryl so much that he feels like he cannot stop, a two week break while substituting with Ambien would be appropriate. At the end of the two weeks the issue with the benadryl would be resolved and a single night or maybe two of restlessness would be a necessary evil to ultimately resolve the problem.
In the end you are going to have to reevaluate your timing of the ephedra.
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I might give that a try, but right now I have trouble sleeping regardless of stims, I have the same issue regardless of weather or not I take e/c. I can be exhausted and ill just lay there with my eyes closed for hours without being able to pass out.
Disappointment* Known SCAMMER - Do Not Trust *
Obviously if the addiction exists to something like benadryl the potential for addiction to ambien is IMO much greater - to become "addcited" one has traits that obviously dont lend themselves to the prescribed dosage / term for most medications. I know u are well aware of that.
Finally something we agree on re: ephedra timing issue - good point.
Disappointment* Known SCAMMER - Do Not Trust *
well there goes the ephedra timing theory ...
btw - not a dig brokenbricks - just an observation....
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What is the longest you have gone without taking benadryl recently?
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Three days, then I broke on the fourth because I was waaaay to exhausted. I wasen't worried about being addicted to it untill i've read the possible effects on GH inhibition, but there dosen't seem to be solid evidence to prove it. I mean are there really any drawbacks to taking it every night?
Disappointment* Known SCAMMER - Do Not Trust *
its better than ambien IMO .....i think its use a good sleep aid choice - no tolerance build up - no am lethargy - no physical withdrawals per se ...
Maybe brokenbricks can tell us if sustained use of an antihistamine can cause issues ....
Retired~ AR-Hall of Famer ~ "Enforcer"
so you're taking a stimulant every day and a sleep aid every night, and you want to know what to do?
maybe it's just me, but I think you should stop both and clean out. and no, if you can't kick benadryl, you definitely do not want to start on Ambien.
~AR-Elite-Hall of Famer~
I have rather bad insomnia, I have not been able to sleep naturally for years. I have to take ambien whenever I have a really bad spell. If not I take benadryl almost every night. My best friend is a PharmD and he pretty much recommends what BrokenBricks suggested. Ambien does have a risk of dependency, thats why i only get a week or two subscription at a time. It also can have some weird side effects. I try to take it and hope straight into bed, if not weird things can happen.
I have talked to a sleep specialist about my problem, if it is getting to bad I recommend that you do the same Gears.
Retired~ AR-Hall of Famer ~ "Enforcer"
yes but you have a reason why you don't sleep well. I don't think taking stimulants every day puts him in the same category. I've used ephedra, couldn't sleep well, so stopped using it. by taking sleep aids he's addressing the symptom, not the problem. just my 2 cents.
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most natural solution (i'm not a "real" insomniac, but I have SERIOUS sleeping issues): Just do something exhilarating a few hrs before bed. if that doesn't work watch Bill Maher's. Hes the worst comedian and most boring person alive. you can try the new otc sleep aid "alteril" but it contains l-tryptophan and ive read about people ingesting too much of that and becoming paralyzed...
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By what logic?
I am guessing something along these lines. "Well he is addicted to a sleep aid and so taking a stronger sleep aid would just make him even less likely to be able to stop taking sleep aids."
Unsound thinking.
Here is the bottom line....he is experiencing a placebo effect and what he needs is a plan to wean him of an imagined addiction. Benadryl is no more effective than placebo after a fey days at inducing sedation. He is not addicted to Benadryl. He is taking a stimulant and having difficulty sleeping. He needs lifestyle changes. Not drugs. That said, taking this guy and giving him something that actually works for a week would help him with a psychological dependence on Benadryl while neither causing a true chemical addiction and less likely to cause a psychological one because the person knows they only took the medication for a week.
I am inviting flames from everyone including the OP, but the bottom line is that benadryl does not work as described here. No withdrawals, no dependence, just quick tolerance to the sedative effects.
Retired~ AR-Hall of Famer ~ "Enforcer"
my point was simply that if someone is doing something to cause themselves to not be able to sleep, and in this case he is, I don't see how taking more drugs to address the situation could possibly be better than removing the reason he can't sleep. I think adding more drugs to address the side effects of drugs is unsound thinking in this case.
I'm out of this one.
~AR-Elite-Hall of Famer~
Good Point Big, I didnt really consider that.....
~AR-Elite-Hall of Famer~
Interesting....
Pharmaceutically Enhanced
When is the lastest time you take ephedra? Your last dose shouldn't be any later than 4-5pm-the LASTEST
Benadryl shouldn't have ANY long term effects. It will come in handy when you get stung-JK
Nothing personal here but there could be a psychological dependency, IMO
Member
doesn't benadryl have stimulant-esque effects if taken and you don't go to sleep right away? whenever i take it and dont sleep right after, i'll be up for hours..
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Well like I was saying, I tried comming off stims, and I still didn't sleep well. I'm dieting right now, so that might have something to do with it, my training volume is low with high intensity, so I doubt im overtraining. Maybe i'll just try to go without anything for awhile, stims and sleep aid just to see if anything improves. If that dosen't work I might try to bridge it with ambian, but i've always had trouble getting to sleep, so I dunno.
Either way, I want to thank you all for the advice.
Member
I take one 50mg dose or ephedra first thing in the morning and thats it. I take caffiene usually by 6pm at the latest.
Disappointment* Known SCAMMER - Do Not Trust *
^^^ Huh i did some searching and it indicated tolerance as a sedative (benadryl) may occur in as soon as two weeks. Found this info in multiple locations....
I still think ambien is a bad idea ...whether his addiction is perceived or not - the fact that it is perceived as an addiction indicates that it could def lead to misuse/ abuse of ambien if his circumstances or source of the issue dont change (as big said)
What about trazadone? ive heard that that can be a useful sleep aid as long as you go to sleep within an hour of taking it. Also appears to have very few commonly occuring side effects and 0 potential for addiction.
Yeah brokenbricks - lets continue with some useful input (nice to see ) ....
Last edited by jimmyinkedup; 02-05-2009 at 06:44 PM.
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I agree 100% that the best and first step should be to address why he cannot sleep.
Member
In general yes, he would be at higher risk of addiction than say I would be.
Yet you can't just get Ambien like you can benadryl. The doctor gives him 10 pills and that is it. It isn't heroin. He isn't likely to run to Mexico to get more of the stuff. More likely to run into a doctor who does not prescribe the proper duration, but that is another story.
I have never met a doctor who prescribed trazadone and would not be comfortable prescribing it myself as I am unfamiliar with it. All I know is that is something to worry about in the ER because it is used as an antidepressant and is frequently used in suicide attempts so I have some knowledge of that end of things, but not its specific indications for use.
In any case, this guy has a plan and it is a fine one.
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Randomized controlled trials tested it against placebo. They did find that other effects of the drug persisted, but not sedation.
~AR-Elite-Hall of Famer~
Thats the first I have heard of it....Learn something new everyday.
BTW, you ever had a AAA pop on you in the ER. I got to see one when I scrubbed in the OR a couple years ago, That was the most blood I ever seen!!!
Last edited by MuscleScience; 02-05-2009 at 07:04 PM. Reason: Scrubbed in the OR
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Yeah, but the guy lost his pulses so quickly he didn't make it out of the resuscitation bay. We coded him right there and called it pretty quickly. His blood stayed inside his belly thankfully.
Most blood I have seen was a guy who got shot 3 times in the chest and we had to open his chest in the ER to massage his heart and repair a lacerated atrium. Lots of blood, but a ruptured AAA with an ex lap is going to be about as much blood as one person is capable of shooting at you.
~AR-Elite-Hall of Famer~
Man I bet you have seen some stuff.
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