Cytomel taper debate.

[buffallo]

Second time user of cytomel.

just starting a new cycle. Im running the T3 for 6 weeks. Ive done bucket loads of research -here- and all over the internet on the different opinions of tapering the drug.

Question is: ramp time on & off, and, or a longer sustained plateau. Last time I just pyramid equal ramp time on & off and played it safe. So I've heard that you can front load the dosage by tapering up rather quick - sustain your high point longer - and then taper down longer. ?????

any input or different tapering plans would be helpful ??

[marcus300]

No need to taper down at the end, it just prolongs recovery.

[Drake Hotel]

Agree with marcus, no need to taper.

[Bertskee]

No need to taper down at the end, it just prolongs recovery.

i was wondering about this subject as well... you dont think it may cause a rebound effect due to such high levels of t3 circulating in the blood stream for an extended period of time.... seeing as how, i assume at least, after the t3 has diminished in blood stream, your body is not producing any at all... allthough i guess if your taking more then your body produces, no matter how much more it is, you are still not producing natural t3 regardless.

it would be nice to find an article which could better explain the subject(or have i already myself lol)... ive been looking for something like that...

anyone with a link??

[Bertskee]

WELL CHECK IT, DID A LITTLE DIGGING, THIS ARTICLE MAY HELP SORT SOME THINGS OUT....


T3 / Clen Information -Informative Read

T3 and the Modern Athlete

So you've decided to use T3 to help you shed fat now that you've read up on it and gotten past the nay sayers who expound the ills of shutting down your body’s own production of natural thyroid. Wonderful, T3 when used correctly can be a great addition to any diet and cardio plan. Read that again boys and girls, IN ADDITION TO ANY DIET AND CARDIO PLAN!!! If you've turned to T3 because you think it's a magic pill that will allow you to eat like crap and still lose weight you've been listening to the wrong advice. Can you lose weight/fat while using T3 and still eating junk food, unfortunately yes to a degree. I say unfortunately because this fact often leads people to do just that, it starts with a cheat meal that turns to a cheat day, which eventually has the athlete eating whatever and whenever they want and still they lose some weight. So what's wrong with this if the eventual out come, weight loss that is, is reached? The first problem is the weight you are losing may not be fat if your eating like crap, the second is what happens when you stop the T3 cycle and your metabolism is suppressed temporarily, if you were eating sloppy during the T3 usage your most likely to keep following that pattern and the combination of a slow metabolism combined with sloppy eating results in rebound weight gain. So in the end what have you really accomplished outside of being able to eat what you want with out getting any fatter for a month or so? And that's if you’re lucky and the rebound weight gain doesn't push you past your starting weight!!!

Now that I have your attention and you know what NOT to do, let's concentrate on what TO do. Just like any other chemical we find in our arsenal, T3 can and is used in a variety of ways when it comes to dosage and length of cycle, both for cutting and bulking. This article will deal with cutting use only. There are some who prefer to "hit it hard" and go high dosage with a quick taper down at the end losing a great amount of weight in a short time, but this way tends to eat as much muscle as fat in my experience and you end up looking basically the same as when you began, except that you weigh less and are smaller. There are those who like to use the same dosage throughout the cycle with no taper up or down figuring if your metabolism is going to be sluggish anyhow why waste the days using it at a low dosage when you could be burning more fat on those days. Then there are those who slowly taper up, maintain the highest dosage for a set time and then slowly taper down. It's the last group I'll concentrate on here, as this is the system that has shown it's best overall results with those I've worked with.

Let's start with the dosage, T3 is a very individual drug, when it comes to dosage I've seen guys use as high as 250-300mcg/day and others as low as 25mcg/day where both athletes lost fat and reached their goals. As a rule I start everyone (and for now I'm dealing with men I'll pen an article on women’s usage in the future) at 25mcg/day. I usually base the time of the cycle on their individual weight loss goals, if it's a smaller amount I'll go 3 weeks tops, if it's a lot of weight to lose we'll go 4, 5 and sometimes 6 weeks. I generally don’t go over 6 weeks with anyone, as T3 tends to stop working in most people after that amount of time. I’d rather they run 4 weeks cycles with 2 weeks off where they use an ECA stack or Clen during the break to continue to lose fat, then run another 4 week cycle. So the 1st 3 days in this cycle would be 25mcg/day, then the 2nd 3-day period is 50mcg/day, etc. The typical 21-day cycle will look like this:

Days 1-3.................. 25mcg/day
Days 4-6...................50mcg/day
Days 7-9...................75mcg/day
Days 10-12................100mcg/day
Days 13-15................75mcg/day
Days 16-18................50mcg/day
Days 19-21................25mcg/day



As you can see the dosage is increased by 25mcg/day every 4th day until the maximum dosage is reached for the subject, in this case 100mcg/day, then lowered the by the same 25mcg/day increments every 4th day until the end of the cycle. Given that most of the people I've worked with have tried everything else and are still considerably overweight when they start, the full 4-week cycle is often used instead of the 21-day cycle. The one I've used lately with the most success is as follow, remember the jumps are still 25mcg/day but this time you increase/decrease the dosage every 4 days:

Days 1-4...................25mcg/day
Days 5-8...................50 "
Days 9-12.................75 "
Days 13-16...............100 "
Days 17-20...............75 "
Days 21-24...............50 "
Days 25-28...............25 "

Note: You could also do the 3-day increase/decrease and hold the maximum dosage of 100mcg/day for days 10-19, but some find 100mcg/day makes them too uncomfortably warm and they sweat too much, especially during the warmer months.

There you have it, simple yet effective. If you remember to supplement your diet with plenty of protein (which every lifter should anyhow), eat a clean calorie controlled diet, drink 1-2 gallons of water per day and to take a mild steroid cycle to minimize muscle loss you should be able to see rapid fat loss with this cycle. I should also mention that some people like to stack T3 with Clenbuterol for even better results
Now I would like to discuss a few other areas of T3 usage, among them the popular T3/Clen cycle, T3 in bulking cycles, rebound weight gain and women’s cycles.

1. Thyroid Suppression
2. T3/Clenbuterol Cycle
3. T3 in bulking cycles
4. Women’s Cycle
5. Timing of dose
6. Rebound Weight Gain

Thyroid Suppression
Let’s start with the biggest misconception still around where T3 is concerned, that is suppression of natural thyroid output. I’m amazed that this drug has been used now for the past several years by literally thousands of athletes with few if any reported cases of thyroid shutdown yet the 1st thing someone says when a person asks about T3 is “it will shut down your natural thyroid and you’ll be on T3 the rest of your life”. Numerous studies have been done and show that cessation of exogenous T3 does not shut down your natural thyroid. The 1st study was done in 1951 by M. Greer (1) and showed that patients that were misdiagnosed as hypothyroidism that later had their medicine withdrawn showed no shutdown of their natural thyroid as their thyroid returned to normal within 2 weeks. His studies also showed that it didn’t matter if the patients thyroid had been medically suppressed for 30 years or a few days they both returned to normal within two weeks. Hence my mentioning in Part 1 of a sluggish thyroid post T3 cycle and my suggestion that you continue to eat clean, do cardio and use a fat burner like the Ephedrine/Caffeine/Aspirin stack, Clenbuterol or an over the counter fat burner until your natural thyroid output returns to normal. Numerous studies have been done since Greer’s that have confirmed his findings. As with any medicine there are always exceptions to the rule and there have been a few people who claim to have had their own thyroid function permanently damaged by T3 usage but in my experience this only occurred when ridiculously high dosages were used, if you adhere to the dosages recommended here in you should be fine.

T3/Clenbuterol Cycle
This has to be the most often used cutting combo used today for fat loss in weight trained athletes, or at least the most talked about. Both drugs when used on their own are effective fat burners through differing pathways, but used together they have a synergistic effect and create a very potent fat burning cycle. The medical reasoning for this is long and complicated and not necessary to understand at this point but it is out there for anyone to research should you need to know, in simple terms each not only do their own job but also help the other’s fat burning process so that in effect, as they say, 1+1=3. So what dose do you use for each drug? For the T3 I suggest you use the same dose scheme I outlined in Part 1, again I took some flack over the lower dosing as some feel you should go higher but as I said from my experience anything over 75mcg-100mcg/day (for men, women’s dosage should go no higher than 50mcg/day) usually burns much too much muscle tissue in addition to fat tissue, unless that is your goal I would stay with as small a dose as you can get away with where you can still tolerate the increased body temp, for most men that is 75-100mcg/day, for most women that is 50mcg/day max. *Using Clen will increase your body temp also so you will have to monitor both drug dosages to see what you can comfortably tolerate. Clenbuterol dosing is a very individual thing, some cycles recommend 160mcg/day at the maximum dosage some 80mcg/day but the 1 thing most agree on is to start low and ease your dosage upwards as you feel comfortable with it the 1st time you use it. With subsequent cycles you can start at your maximum tolerable dose or slightly lower and then increase the dosage over a few days until you reach your maximum again as some people report the maximum they can use differs from 1 cycle to another. Which brand and whether you use tabs vs. liquids could also have something to do with the differing max doses. I would suggest you start your 1st cycle of Clen with 20mcg/day and increase by 20mcg/day until you reach the upper maximum you can use based on the side effects. The most common side effects are shaking, jitteriness, anxiety and raising of body temperature, basically the feelings you get when you’ve had way too much caffeine or cold medication are what your looking out for. When those sides get to be too much cut back to the last tolerable dose. A popular Clenbuterol cycle is 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off. For men I would suggest starting at 20mcg/day and going up to 100-120mcg/day or like I said whatever you can tolerate, stay there until day 14 then end the cycle, women should try half that max dose but if you can tolerate more and want to use it then go for it this is definitely a trial and error process. Take 2 weeks off and then repeat if desired, again starting at or near your maximum dose that you figured out with the 1st cycle. When stacking with T3 the question becomes what do you do on the 2 weeks your off Clen but still are on T3? That’s really an individual decision for you to make, you could rotate an ECA stack or a Gugglesterone with the Clen cycle so that your doing 1 for 2 weeks then the other for 2 weeks. Or you could simply take 2 weeks off after the end of the Clen where your only on the T3 for the next 2 weeks, you’ll be at your mid to max dosage of T3 by then so you’ll still be burning fat just fine. Then after the 4 weeks of T3 you’ll be done with both the T3 and the Clen and you could start a ECA stack for 2 weeks if you are ending the cutting cycle and want to protect yourself against rebound weight gain while waiting for your natural thyroid levels to return to normal. If you have more fat to lose you can cycle off T3 for 2 weeks as I said in Part 1 and repeat the cycle again. When to use Clen again will depend on when you used it last, remember 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off. There’s nothing to say you can’t cycle T3 ad ECA together while you wait to add the Clen back in, just remember whenever you come off the T3 you want something in your system to help burn fat while you wait for your natural thyroid to return to normal. Also remember that Clen cycles are like T3 cycles in that there’s several different cycle’s currently popular, and you’ll most likely get different advice to the length and type of cycle by asking more than one person. The advice I give is based on those I’ve had use it and report back to me their results and feeling on it. I’m all for experimenting but until something comes along that proves to be better I’ll stick with the 2 weeks on/2 weeks off cycle advice where Clen is concerned.

T3 in Bulking Cycles
I briefly touched on using T3 in bulking cycles and many members seemed confused as to how a fat burner could help with a bulking cycle. T3 is a drug mainly known for raising one’s metabolism and burning fat, and possibly muscle tissue, when used at higher dosages (> 75-100 mcg/day for men, > 50mcg/day for women), but at lower dosages (12.5-25mcg/day for men, ½ that for women) it causes a faster conversion of carbohydrates, proteins, and fats. It’s the increased conversion and absorption of nutrients that increases the results of your bulking cycle when you use it with a bulking cycle. When you run a bulking cycle you do so in conjunction with a higher protein/higher calorie diet because we know in order to grow muscle we need to feed the body nutrients, so there are plenty of nutrients to be converted, thus the bulking cycle gets a “push” if you will yielding better results. I can tell that literally every single person who has taken my advice and tried using a small amount of T3 daily with their bulking cycle has reported better gains than they usually get without it. I’ve even had success using 25mcg/day every other day with a bulking cycle. When you consider the low cost of T3 at such small a dosage it’s definitely a cheap insurance to better gains.

Women’s Cycles
Although women have been known to use T3 with good success I always hesitate to recommend a cycle to them for the simple reason that women seem to be much more sensitive to T3 than men are. The rebound weight gain can be significant if the post T3 period isn’t monitored stringently and an over the counter fat burner isn’t used. That said if you’re still set on using it here is a simple straightforward 21 day cycle, again using the 3 day ramp up and ramp down method.

Days 1-3...............12.5mcg/day
Days 4-6...............25mcg/day
Days 7-9...............37.5mcg/day
Days 10-12...........50mcg/day
Days 13-15............37.5mcg/day
Days 16-18............25mcg/day
Days 19-21……….12.5mcg/day

If you want to run it longer than 21 days, you can add in more days at the maximum dosage or use it in 4 day blocks with the ramp up and ramp down. Again please remember women are more sensitive to T3 than men and the rebound weight gain can be much more significant if your not ultra vigilant with the post T3 period, keep eating a very clean diet with calories below maintenance, and use either Gugglesterones, ECA stack or any other over the counter fat burner you feel comfortable with to help boost your natural metabolism until your system recovers, which could be anywhere from a few days to about 2-3 weeks.

Dosage Timing
T3 has a ½ life that doesn’t necessitate multiple daily dosing, so taking your entire daily dose at once is usually recommended. That said if your cycle requires you to take 100mcg/day or more I usually recommend splitting the dosage in ½ and taking it twice per day just to insure if you are sensitive to the drugs possible side effects you limit the exposure. Again I would suggest taking it in the morning, then around dinner time if a 2nd dose is necessary. I know that for myself, certain brands cause an upset stomach if I take more than 50mcg at a time, so at 75-100mcg/day I’d split it into 50mcg in the morning and the balance at nighttime.

Rebound Weight Gain
Rebound weight gain is inevitable when using T3, the best you can hope for is to minimize it. A good start is to make sure you use at least a small amount of a steroid with the cycle, this will help you to hold on to the muscle mass you already have. The best thing you can do is to take a post cycle over the counter fat loss product such as ECA stack, Gugglesterones or some other similar product. What your looking for here is the continuance of the fat loss while your system returns to your normal thyroid output. This should occur with in 2-3 weeks, so during that time continue to eat clean, do cardio, drink plenty of water and take the over the counter fat loss product. You’ll know when your thyroid has returned to normal when your body temp returns to normal. Women are especially warned to be very vigilant here, most people are eager to eat more when their cycle ends but this is not the time when using T3, you need to make sure your metabolism has been restored before splurging a bit.

[Bertskee]

one statement as i was informed earlier that is untrue and is misinformative is that you can use and eca stack on your off days from clen... this is not adviseable as both clen and eca operate within the same receptors, and would be counterproductive, as they would never be given time to upregulate.

[buffallo]

thanx guys.

that was a great article. never came across it. whered you fint it???

[M302_Imola]

Great find Bertskee, this article was very informative! Any clue on when it was written?

[magic32]

This question is indicative of the reason I dislike ‘The Family Feud’. It’s a nice program, but where does the ‘Hundred people survey’ come from? Surely you’d get diametrically different responses from Compton than say West Beverly. So are they using cross sections, do they stratify the samples for age, demography, ethnicity, culture, etc.???

I gave that illustration to say that similarly, this thread/question and those like it tend to garner a lot of speculative conjecture based on popular theory and parroted information, rather than fact. In questions of administration, I’d rather defer to the directions of either the manufacturer, or the FDA. Consequently, even though there are very valid reasons and instructions by the aforementioned authorities for ramping up I’ve NEVER (for any condition, dosage, or duration) seen documented instructions to ramp downward, with the exception of diabetic users with hypoglycemic concerns.

http://www.fda.gov/cder/foi/label/2002/10379s47lbl.pdf

That's the loquacious way of saying...Marcus is right again!

[Bertskee]

thanx guys.

that was a great article. never came across it. whered you fint it???

i cant remember but i saved it in my documents...i tend to do that anytime i find something that i know could be usefull to myself and otheres...

[Bertskee]

Great find Bertskee, this article was very informative! Any clue on when it was written?

none whatsoever... i wish i had saved more details about its author and such... but i must have missed it... none the less, its a gem i must say

[Bertskee]

This question is indicative of the reason I dislike ‘The Family Feud’. It’s a nice program, but where does the ‘Hundred people survey’ come from? Surely you’d get diametrically different responses from Compton than say West Beverly. So are they using cross sections, do they stratify the samples for age, demography, ethnicity, culture, etc.???

I gave that illustration to say that similarly, this thread/question and those like it tend to garner a lot of speculative conjecture based on popular theory and parroted information, rather than fact. In questions of administration, I’d rather defer to the directions of either the manufacturer, or the FDA. Consequently, even though there are very valid reasons and instructions by the aforementioned authorities for ramping up I’ve NEVER (for any condition, dosage, or duration) seen documented instructions to ramp downward, with the exception of diabetic users with hypoglycemic concerns.

http://www.fda.gov/cder/foi/label/2002/10379s47lbl.pdf

That's the loquacious way of saying...Marcus is right again!

lol... never doubted, im just always the stickler for details... its a curse