New Cut Diet - NO IDEA what to do on off days! NARK I NEED YOU!

[gbrice75]

I just started a cut diet on Monday. I can post the diet if you'd like, but in short it's 7 meals a day, every 3 hours. Macros work out to 50/30/20 P/C/F.

This is loosely based on a cut diet that another member did and got excellent results - he had help from NARK on it. I have a PM out to NARK with all of my info, but I know he's a busy guy and I wanted to get started asap.

My problem is i've only accounted for workout days (M-F for me) and have no idea what to do on weekends. Should I lower my carb macro? If so, what should increase to keep calories the same (or should they decrease as well?)?

I have also heard of a carb/refeed day - I don't know details of this but have heard it's important to keep the fat loss going. Please help!!!

[mg1228]

I just started a cut diet on Monday. I can post the diet if you'd like, but in short it's 7 meals a day, every 3 hours. Macros work out to 50/30/20 P/C/F.

This is loosely based on a cut diet that another member did and got excellent results - he had help from NARK on it. I have a PM out to NARK with all of my info, but I know he's a busy guy and I wanted to get started asap.

My problem is i've only accounted for workout days (M-F for me) and have no idea what to do on weekends. Should I lower my carb macro? If so, what should increase to keep calories the same (or should they decrease as well?)?

I have also heard of a carb/refeed day - I don't know details of this but have heard it's important to keep the fat loss going. Please help!!!

Nark had me at maint cals on wo days and 6-700 back on off days--keep the split the same----u most likely will b skipping ur normal pwo meal---so that shold lower cals right there

[mg1228]

after 2 weeks u can implement a re-feed day every 7th day---up the carbs to about 3-350 that day

[gbrice75]

Nark had me at maint cals on wo days and 6-700 back on off days--keep the split the same----u most likely will b skipping ur normal pwo meal---so that shold lower cals right there

There's my boy!!!

If I recall, you were only working out 3 days a week, right? I wonder if Nark would have me at maint 5 days a week... these are the types of questions I have. Also - not to sound like a complete imbucile (which I am), but maint. and TDEE are the same, right?

[gbrice75]

after 2 weeks u can implement a re-feed day every 7th day---up the carbs to about 3-350 that day

Would this be on a workout day or non-workout? I would assume workout but could be wrong.

Up the carbs TO 3-350 (grams) or BY 3-350 (cals)?

[mg1228]

There's my boy!!!

If I recall, you were only working out 3 days a week, right? I wonder if Nark would have me at maint 5 days a week... these are the types of questions I have. Also - not to sound like a complete imbucile (which I am), but maint. and TDEE are the same, right?

Whats up!! yea 3 days but i think he likes u at maint on wo days just to make sure u are maintaining ur lbm--but thats a good question on the 5 days on--maint and tdee are the same--if it makes you feel better do maint on m/w/f and 2-300 back on tues/th---like i was saying after roughly 3 weeks u should b able to tell alot more about how ur cals are working---i would take pictures though because the scale will f**k with ur head---and we all know how hard it is to get accurate bf measurments

[mg1228]

some say do your re-feed on a off day so u get the full effect--that being said i had mine on fri. which was a wo day for me-------yea i would double if not triple ur grams of carbs on this day----i used this day for my cheat meal aswell---i would do clean carbs all day and then at dinner i would have two medium pizzas that were about 1000 cals a piece---yum

[gbrice75]

Whats up!! yea 3 days but i think he likes u at maint on wo days just to make sure u are maintaining ur lbm--but thats a good question on the 5 days on--maint and tdee are the same--if it makes you feel better do maint on m/w/f and 2-300 back on tues/th---like i was saying after roughly 3 weeks u should b able to tell alot more about how ur cals are working---i would take pictures though because the scale will f**k with ur head---and we all know how hard it is to get accurate bf measurments

I could do that - that would basically give me 4 days at lower cals, 3 days at maint. In my mind (and again, I could be wrong) it seems counter-productive to fat loss - eating at maint. that is. It just seems like it would take longer to get where you want to be in terms of bodyfat %. However, keeping LBM (which I have almost NONE of as it is) is definitely valid!

I am going to take some new pics this week and will post so everyone can follow my journey. I really REALLY hope this works out man... this is like my last ditch effort!

[gbrice75]

some say do your re-feed on a off day so u get the full effect--that being said i had mine on fri. which was a wo day for me-------yea i would double if not triple ur grams of carbs on this day----i used this day for my cheat meal aswell---i would do clean carbs all day and then at dinner i would have two medium pizzas that were about 1000 cals a piece---yum

Doubling or tripling my carbs will NOT be a problem at all!!!

2 pizzas.... wow, can I have my refeed/cheat day TODAY??!!! =)

[mg1228]

There's my boy!!!

If I recall, you were only working out 3 days a week, right? I wonder if Nark would have me at maint 5 days a week... these are the types of questions I have. Also - not to sound like a complete imbucile (which I am), but maint. and TDEE are the same, right?

Doubling or tripling my carbs will NOT be a problem at all!!!

2 pizzas.... wow, can I have my refeed/cheat day TODAY??!!! =)

yea i know----now im cravin it

[gbrice75]

BUMP! I have one day left to get a weekend plan in place! I'm already at a 500 or so caloric deficit from my TDEE, and that's M-F (workout days).

Should I keep calories the same over the weekend?

[Twist]

You should have a break in your week somewhere. m-f with no break gives you no recovery time. I would break on wed. (cardio is ok everyday)

500 cal deficit except on your refeed day where you can do clean cals and up it by 300 over your tdee.

mg is super lean and has good genetics... I don't think I would advise you to do a cheat like he does lol. If weight loss is really hard for you then I would keep it as clean as possible

[gbrice75]

You should have a break in your week somewhere. m-f with no break gives you no recovery time. I would break on wed. (cardio is ok everyday)

500 cal deficit except on your refeed day where you can do clean cals and up it by 300 over your tdee.

mg is super lean and has good genetics... I don't think I would advise you to do a cheat like he does lol. If weight loss is really hard for you then I would keep it as clean as possible

Thanks Twist. I suppose I could add Tri's to my chest day and Bi's to my back day, although I was trying to avoid this (lengthy workouts). If I did this, it would be:

Monday - Chest, Tri's
Tuesday - Back, Bi's
Wed - OFF (just cardio)
Thursday - Legs
Friday - Shoulders

What do you think of that split?

So you're saying to stick with my 500 cal deficit on ALL days (workout and non-workout) except for a single refeed day (once a week, non workout day???) where I should bump up calories by about 300? What should those cals consist mainly of, clean carbs?

[Damienm05]

Thanks Twist. I suppose I could add Tri's to my chest day and Bi's to my back day, although I was trying to avoid this (lengthy workouts). If I did this, it would be:

Monday - Chest, Tri's
Tuesday - Back, Bi's
Wed - OFF (just cardio)
Thursday - Legs
Friday - Shoulders

What do you think of that split?

So you're saying to stick with my 500 cal deficit on ALL days (workout and non-workout) except for a single refeed day (once a week, non workout day???) where I should bump up calories by about 300? What should those cals consist mainly of, clean carbs?

It's not the split I would choose but there's nothing wrong with it. You'll see nice results provided the diet/number of sets/exercises/form are in check.

Now, as for your refeed and what carb choices to make, I'd say clean and complex only with one exception, I'll explain in a moment. I am currently pretty ripped but I assure you, if I ate 2 medium Pizzas for dinner, I would cease to be. In fact, that would destroy an entire week of dieting for me and then some. Assuming you train on your refeed day, I would start by including 1 serving of simple carbs via lower GI fruits, such as Apples and bananas PWO. I would then taper off to complex carbs only - the highest quality of which are sweet potatoes and steel cut oats. Minimally processed sources such as ezekiel bread, stone ground grits, brown rice, and barley are all good too. I'd shoot for 80 grams of complex carbs in your first 4 meals and then switch to the standard pro/fat meals after 6:00 PM with lots of fibrous carbs. Don't let anyone tell you that simple sugars are essential on your refeed day except for PWO, all carbohydrates will be broken down into simple forms for energy conversion eventually; there's no need for empty "use or store" calories.

[gbrice75]

It's not the split I would choose but there's nothing wrong with it. You'll see nice results provided the diet/number of sets/exercises/form are in check.

Now, as for your refeed and what carb choices to make, I'd say clean and complex only with one exception, I'll explain in a moment. I am currently pretty ripped but I assure you, if I ate 2 medium Pizzas for dinner, I would cease to be. In fact, that would destroy an entire week of dieting for me and then some. Assuming you train on your refeed day, I would start by including 1 serving of simple carbs via lower GI fruits, such as Apples and bananas PWO. I would then taper off to complex carbs only - the highest quality of which are sweet potatoes and steel cut oats. Minimally processed sources such as ezekiel bread, stone ground grits, brown rice, and barley are all good too. I'd shoot for 80 grams of complex carbs in your first 4 meals and then switch to the standard pro/fat meals after 6:00 PM with lots of fibrous carbs. Don't let anyone tell you that simple sugars are essential on your refeed day except for PWO, all carbohydrates will be broken down into simple forms for energy conversion eventually; there's no need for empty "use or store" calories.

Thanks for the feedback man! Let me make sure I understand what you're saying here. As for the pizzas - I'll hold off until I can do a bulk diet, and maybe cheat now and then during that. I know I can't do it now, my body just sucks like that. MG obviously has it too good, lol!

Now - you're assuming i'll refeed on a workout day. My question is, does it matter? Is a workout day more beneficial to refeed on than a non-workout day?

When you say 80g carbs in my first 4 meals - do you mean spread out across 4 meals, or 80g per meal? I'll stick with all complex if I refeed on a non-workout day, or i'll throw in some simple PWO as you suggested if on a workout day.

[gbrice75]

Here is a post I found on another board regarding refeed days, interesting stuff:

10-05-04, 11:44 AM
Refeeds and Leptin

Refeeds are typically done while cutting; that is, creating a caloric deficit so your body is forced to rely on fat as an energy source. Most people on any low carb diet---i.e. less than 1 gram per pound of bodyweight per day----or implementing any extreme caloric deficit should incorporate a refeed.

Refeeds are used to raise Leptin, refill muscle and liver glycogen, as well as providing sanity release from dieting as your body is temporarily thrown into a state of metabolic balance. Please read Par Deus's first article on Leptin and its benefits:
http://magazine.*************.net/m...ID=51&issueID=3

A Quick, Layman’s Explanation of Leptin:

Leptin is considered an anti-starvation/metabolic balance hormone. As your Leptin levels decrease, the signal is sent to inform that your body is going into starvation mode. As your body goes into starvation mode we all know what happens---your fat loss slows down immensely or in some cases to a screeching halt. So in order to kick fat loss into gear again, you need to raise Leptin.

Common sense dictates that the body seeks balance, and if you endeavor to upset that balance---you have to outwit your body. We were built for survival, and unfortunately for the fitness/bodybuilding-oriented folk, “survival” didn’t mean 170 pounds of ripped mass at 6% bodyfat.

I can’t count have many people have asked this the question of why they lost fat after cheating. They have been so good and clean on their diets for weeks and results slowed down, they got frustrated, they cheated and 2 days later woke up lighter and leaner than before the cheat. Main reason right there, they raised Leptin. Raising Leptin levels will give your body the kick-start it needs for the next few days to keep you out of starvation mode as you diet. As long as your body is out of starvation mode, the faster the fat loss, and the less likely you are to lose LBM, while suffering on all counts in the process. Like I said above, this a brief explanation and there is so much info on Leptin so please read Par’s articles for a more detailed and scientific explanation.

Eat Your Way Out of Metabolic Hell

So, now you are probably thinking, "How do I increase Leptin?” Ready for this...........Eat lots of Carbs. I'm not necessarily talking slow burning carbs here either folks. I know, most of you reading this right now are thinking is she talking about? Simple explanation: The way to raise Leptin is to actually spill over into your fat cells.

Yes, I said it, SPILL OVER!! In order to fill your muscle glycogen you need carbs, once your glycogen stores are full, you are now spilling over into your fat cells. 1 Step Backwards for 2 Steps Forward. Remember folks you can't get fat in 1 day. This is not a new method of fat loss either. Bodybuilders are doing this everywhere and with fantastic results. A Refeed Day is NOT and I repeat NOT a cheat day. There are rules to this that should be followed to avoid gaining fat during the refeed

Typically a refeed is done every 4-5 days, although the frequency of the refeeds can be adjusted to suit the person. The lower the caloric deficit you've managed to create, and the lower your BF%, the more often you should refeed. Why? Because your leptin levels plummet as your calories drop and your bodyfat decreases; remember, we want to stay out of starvation mode.

How do you know when you should refeed more often, or less often? Unfortunately, it’s a personal process of trial and error; no two people are alike, and the general refeed plan is just that---general. If you find yourself constantly obsessed with food, and if you’re losing a significant amount of muscle and strength, you may have to refeed more often (perhaps every 2 to 3 days).

A refeed may also be shorter or longer in duration. For instance, some prefer to refeed for 24 hours, in which case they may consume anywhere from 25 to 50% above their maintenance caloric intake. For shorter refeeds, such as those that last for 6 to 10 hours, people often do not count their calories; rather, they pack down as much as they can within the designated time-frame to ensure that their fat cells have a hefty bag of new fuel to stoke the metabolic furnace with.

Appropriate Foods For a Refeed

During your refeed, you should aim for around 1G of protein per Pound of body weight, keeping your sources of fat to a minimum, so you are only taking the fats that are in your proteins and carbs. Now, here is the fun part: CARBS! Yes, lots and lots and lots of carbs. Not necessarily brown rice, sweet potatoes and oats here either:

Bagels
Pasta
Rice
Bread
Cereal
FF/SF Ice Cream
Pancakes
Waffles
Crackers

Yes, all the things we crave If its low fat or fat free, have at it! Remember, no additional fats.

You should keep fructose to a minimum though. Sticking to 50-100G [for fructose, probably lower, like 25%] for the day is plenty. Remember sucrose is 50% glucose and 50% fructose so seeing that we need to watch our fructose, staying away from sucrose (table sugar) is probably best. Yes, in order to elevate our levels of leptin, we want to spill over muscle, not liver glycogen.

Wrapping It Up---For Now

Now, don't bother stepping on the scale the next day---you will be heavier. Remember, carbs make you hold water but in a day or two it will be all gone and your body will burning fat like mad again.

Some of you being scared of other carb sources may opt to refeed with slow burning carbs and that's fine. Just keep in mind its going to take a hell of alot more oatmeal to raise Leptin than 1 bowl full, and if you’re doing a relatively short refeed, you may want to reconsider your food choices; a short refeed absolutely requires a drastic increase in your calories, as well as the consumption of refined carb sources.

The fiber in the slow burning carbs can be counter-productive when trying to raise leptin, that's why we use refined carbs. Refined carbs raise Leptin much quicker and you won't feel like a stuffed pig all day for having to eat 3C of oats to equal what 1 bagel could have done. And for those of you who are scared, it’s up to you to look at the entire picture, especially in light of how the body seeks balance. Then, if you truly understand the issue, you will no longer fear the calculated nature of a refeed, even if it requires you to consume those foods that are typically----at least in your mind----forbidden.

Anyone carb cycling does not need to follow this refeed. Reason being is because the carb cycling diet uses the High Carb days (every 2 days) to raise Leptin.

Hopefully this has provided a basic overview on refeeds.

If I can eat cereal, bagels, etc. on my refeed day - that's gonna be a dream come true! However, you guys have suggested sticking with complex carbs/clean stuff which contradicts the article I posted above. Hmmm, what to do, what to do...

Now my main question is whether I should refeed on a workout or non-workout day - does it matter? Is one better than the other? In my mind, I would think a workout day is better because at least i'm not sitting on my @ss all day AND stuffing myself full of carbs... i'll at least get my cardio and workout in. Your thoughts?

[gbrice75]

PLEASE HELP!!! I pretty much get the refeed day thing, but I really need to know whether it matters if I do it on a w/o day vs. a non-w/o day. Is one better than the other?

I am going to skip this week since I just started the cut diet, but plan on incorporating the refeed day during or at the end of week 2, depending on what you guys tell me.

[Damienm05]

Thanks for the feedback man! Let me make sure I understand what you're saying here. As for the pizzas - I'll hold off until I can do a bulk diet, and maybe cheat now and then during that. I know I can't do it now, my body just sucks like that. MG obviously has it too good, lol!

Now - you're assuming i'll refeed on a workout day. My question is, does it matter? Is a workout day more beneficial to refeed on than a non-workout day?

When you say 80g carbs in my first 4 meals - do you mean spread out across 4 meals, or 80g per meal? I'll stick with all complex if I refeed on a non-workout day, or i'll throw in some simple PWO as you suggested if on a workout day.

-If anything, I'd imagine it's better to refeed on an off-day as to fully replenish glycogen reserves. If you do workout though, don't do cardio. I don't see a problem with lifting on a refeed day.
-80 grams per meal.

[gbrice75]

-If anything, I'd imagine it's better to refeed on an off-day as to fully replenish glycogen reserves. If you do workout though, don't do cardio. I don't see a problem with lifting on a refeed day.
-80 grams per meal.

Thanks Damien - that's all I needed to know. I think i'll go with a refeed day on the weekend, probably Sunday so then I won't feel bad for 2 days in a row, and get right back in the gym on Monday hopefully feeling nice and strong from the refeed.

Looking forward to carbing up!

[Damienm05]

I hate carbing up because even though I know it's beneficial and I'll be better off because of it in a couple days; I always feel so bloated the day after.

[gbrice75]

I hate carbing up because even though I know it's beneficial and I'll be better off because of it in a couple days; I always feel so bloated the day after.

I hear you, it's that mental crap again, lol. I'll expect to feel bloated, fat, heavy, etc. and I won't even bother stepping on the scale the next day. But I AM hoping that with those perceived 'negative side effects', i'll also feel very strong the next day, which happens to be chest day - I need to move up on that bench already!

[mg1228]

carbed up yesterday, strong as shit this morning---but bloated

[gbrice75]

carbed up yesterday, strong as shit this morning---but bloated

LoL i'm looking forward to my day... let's see... i'm gonna have a huge bowl of cereal or two.... a few bagels.... etc. etc. etc...

[HustlerBrah]

^ lol bs!

you plan on having ice-cream, fat free cookies, muffin bars etc!

[gbrice75]

^ lol bs!

you plan on having ice-cream, fat free cookies, muffin bars etc!

LoL i'll tell you what - when I do reach my goal of 10% bodyfat, i'll be switching those refeed days to true 'cheat days' - and i'll be going buck wild!

I'm already compiling a list of $hit i'm gonna eat - it's gonna be a massacre! Cookies, ice cream, DORITOS, brownies... and I might just have a sandwich with pure grease dumped on it!

[edgarr]

-If anything, I'd imagine it's better to refeed on an off-day as to fully replenish glycogen reserves. If you do workout though, don't do cardio. I don't see a problem with lifting on a refeed day.
-80 grams per meal.

Why no cardio? I was thinking do cardio in the am on an empty stomach and then pro/carb meal right after and 4 more through the day.

[mg1228]

LoL i'll tell you what - when I do reach my goal of 10% bodyfat, i'll be switching those refeed days to true 'cheat days' - and i'll be going buck wild!

I'm already compiling a list of $hit i'm gonna eat - it's gonna be a massacre! Cookies, ice cream, DORITOS, brownies... and I might just have a sandwich with pure grease dumped on it!

watchin my 4 yr old eat oreo cookies right now----man they look good-----meanwhile im eating chicken and broccoli

[gbrice75]

watchin my 4 yr old eat oreo cookies right now----man they look good-----meanwhile im eating chicken and broccoli

LoL - well I did get my fill over the holidays (and paid for it by losing NOTHING) - peanut butter cookies, coconut macaroons, chocolate chip cookies, cheesecake... OMG!

Now i'm about to go heat up yet ANOTHER batch of chicken, broccoli and asparagus... no no, of course it's better than pizza or chinese food, really, I don't want that stuff! A Roast Beef and swiss sub? no way, that's crap!

[Turkey]

I just started a cut diet on Monday.

if you just started, you won't need to worry about a refeed or cheat day for a few weeks...

right now, focus on getting into the routine of making the best food choices and eating frequently....

put equal focus on getting into better shape, so you won't torture yourself through this cut with calorie restriction and slow-go morning walks....

[gbrice75]

if you just started, you won't need to worry about a refeed or cheat day for a few weeks...

right now, focus on getting into the routine of making the best food choices and eating frequently....

put equal focus on getting into better shape, so you won't torture yourself through this cut with calorie restriction and slow-go morning walks....

Well, I technically just started... but I have been on this basic diet for about a month - I just wasn't happy with it. I refined and modified until I was happy with it. Plus, I cheated alot during the holidays.

So i'm thinking of having my first refeed this Sunday, since other than a few 'slip ups', I have been very low carb for about a month.

[Turkey]

Well, I technically just started... but I have been on this basic diet for about a month - I just wasn't happy with it. I refined and modified until I was happy with it. Plus, I cheated alot during the holidays.

So i'm thinking of having my first refeed this Sunday, since other than a few 'slip ups', I have been very low carb for about a month.

well, the few 'slip-ups' should right now count as cheats/refeeds....considering you slipped up so quickly, I think you really need to be extra strict for the time being with your diet....you're not really 'refeeding' anything right now (unless you're currently in heavy training for a race or sport)

[gbrice75]

well, the few 'slip-ups' should right now count as cheats/refeeds....considering you slipped up so quickly, I think you really need to be extra strict for the time being with your diet....you're not really 'refeeding' anything right now (unless you're currently in heavy training for a race or sport)

Turk - when would you suggest incorporating a recurring refeed day - after 1 month? I don't know when and what is appropriate.

[edgarr]

sorry to hi-jack, I was going to send a pn but thought it would be better if everyone knew the answer.

In an above post someone states not to do cardio on your re-feed day but working out is ok. Why no cardio? What about cardio first thing am on empty and start carb loading with meal 1?

[mg1228]

sorry to hi-jack, I was going to send a pn but thought it would be better if everyone knew the answer.

In an above post someone states not to do cardio on your re-feed day but working out is ok. Why no cardio? What about cardio first thing am on empty and start carb loading with meal 1?

the idea of a refeed is to replenish glycogen stores as much as possible---so exercise would only help deplete them---thats why most say do it on a off day

[mg1228]

whats up gbrice,hows it goin---any updates