What should my PCT be?

[RonPaul]

Ive been on 500ml (250 twice a week) of Test Enanthate for 5 weeks, and was also stacking Deca for week 1-4 (i hated the water retention), and switched to Tren Acetate and doing 100ml EOD the last week (3 pins thus far) and have had zero sides from any.. I'll be running Tren A and Test E for 2 more weeks at which time I adding (oral) 50mg of Winny EOD for the final 3 weeks (10 week cycle). I have Chlomid on hand and am getting HCG on Tuesday. Can someone tell me the best PCT (and dosage) to keep me well and to keep my gains, as this has been a great cycle thus far and am very happy.

Thanks,

[RonPaul]

bump... no help?

[Baghli]

I would use nolva/tamox over clomi n start the HCG a week before you end your cycle and do this:
week 1-5 20mg Nolva ED
week 1-4 100mg Clomi ED
week 1-4 20mg aromasin/l-stane ED
week 1-3 500iu HCG ED (might do a lower dosage upto u)
week 1-5 1500mg Tribulus ED

Take Vitamin E starting with the HCG whether you decide to do that in cycle or PCT and I would take it for upto a week after last HCG pin.

[RonPaul]

what are the sides when I taper off the HCG? Any rationale to stay on it at a limited dose to bridge between cycles?

[Baghli]

If you stay on it too long you might get HCG induced Leydig Cell desensitization and basically your body wont respond to the LH like it should even after the levels are back to normal. From my understanding this means that you will result in needing something like test shots permanently for the rest of your life. I personally dont like HCG and dont plan on using it in my PCT but it works when used right. Hopefully another member can shed some more info and correct anything ive said that maybe wrong. Im just telling you what ive learned from my research, I dont have any personal experience with it.

[RonPaul]

I just read lots of conflicting stories about using it.. That it will keep my libido up, help with erections until my nads are working again etc.. Why dont you like it, or why wouldnt you use it?

[Baghli]

a lot of people love it and use it religiously without having any problems. at the same time though it seems to be one of the highest contributing factors to people getting gyno who havent otherwise. i personally would rather suffer a low libido for an extra week or 2 and maybe lose a pound or 2 over spending the money on the HCG and then risk the complications. im sure if any of the other members c this they r gonna start yelling at me saying that if u use it right u shouldnt have any complications which ultimately u shouldnt but theres always that risk and ur not going to know until u try it. the tribulus u can get from gnc or any vitamin store and that helps boost ur LH so for me that is sufficient.

[RonPaul]

Again, I start my PCT 14 days after my last Test E shot correct, which will be on the 4th of June, which is also the last day of my Winny and Tren A... Since Tren A and Winny is a short esther, will I start to have issues before the 14 days is up before I start the above PCT? Ideas/recommendations?

[Baghli]

recommended is usually 2 weeks because the enan ester is active for 10-14 days. since ur on winny too then ya u timed it right, 1 day after winny (active life of winny about 8hrs) and 2 weeks after enan. tren a is gonna be active for 2-3 days so u should factor that in. i would NOT take my last tren shot with my last dose of winny, i would try to make it a day or so before but i dont know what kind of schedule ur on so just try to factor that in. between the tren and winny you really shouldnt notice any issues but the half life of enan is about 5 days so after that you may notice a drop in everything test based but not much (depends on every person of course).

[RonPaul]

so start PCT one day after stopping winny then???? and not wait the 2 weeks? im confused on when to start what/when considering im stopping it all the same time on June 4th, as Im going out of town on 10 days vacation..

[Baghli]

oh i misunderstood, i thought ur tren and winny kept going for 2 weeks after the test e. no just wait the 2 weeks for the pct or it will just be a waste as the test e will still b circulating in ur blood stream. just to confirm, wait the 2 weeks. in this case u will definitely start seeing a difference as the test e gradually gets out of ur system. since ur going on vacation im assuming u wont be lifting so ur not going to notice the strength drop. you will more than likely be having trouble getting it up so i hope your vacation doesnt involve anything with the mrs. just follow the pct and in a month u should be in tip top shape.

[RonPaul]

No I definitely will still be lifting every day while on vacation.. Yes the vacation will involve lots of sex... Hcg help with that??

[Baghli]

the hcg and tribulus may help but i would look into getting some cialis or viagra. both of those take a little while to build u up to what u may need and ur starting ur pct when u get back from the vacation so the hcg and tribulus arent even going to be in ur system. u may not need anything, it depends on ur body but dont rush into ur pct just to have sex as that isnt going to work anyways! it takes a while for ur levels to go back to normal and being stupid about it just increases the risk of permanent damage! like i said earlier, get something that will help u get it up just incase.

[RonPaul]

oh ok... So do nothing, take nothing for 2 weeks (14 days) after I take all my lost shots on the 4th of June.. Then go ahead with the full PCT you recommended above.. correct? Just wanna do everything right. I have had great success with this cycle and Im very happy.. I dont want to end up with rebound gyno or lose all my gains that I've worked so hard for.. Thanks for all your help!

[Fit N Fun]

Some thoughts for you.

I use HCG from week 3 on my cycle 400iu every 5 days, I inject Test + Deca every 5 days and do the HCG at the same time.

HCG increases your testicle size and also causes natural testosterone to be produced, but does not help your system return to it's natural ways.

Baghli :- Not heard of HCG induced Leydig Cell desensitization, always thought that it was just steroid induced which is why you need PCT.

My 6 month cycle finished a couple of weeks ago and I am still taking HCG every 5 days to keep my bedroom performance right.

Also agree with the suggestion that you should have some Viagra / Cialis on hand since some of this stuff plays on your mind and if you are on a heavy date and want to know you will get it 100% right in the bedroom then those little pills are perfect.

I started taking Naltrexone last week to start my PCT, would have taken it all the way through if I had known about them, the suggestion is that Naltrexone will replace the need for HCG and keep the system functioning so that no PCT is required.

I will start Tamoxifen next week ( three weeks after my last Test + Deca injection ) and have been advised by Switfo on my thread about Naltrexone that HCG needs to stop at that time so the only option will be Viagra / Cialis until the system recovers.

I also take HGH when off cycle so that some maintenance / small gains are possible when not on steroids

[Baghli]

Fit N Fun :-

Source 1:

"It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition."

Source 2:

"Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hcg in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: Tamoxifen and testicular response to hcg.

Levalle OA, Suescun MO, Fiszlejder L, Aszpis S, Charreau E, Guitelman A, Calandra R.

Division Endocrinologia, Hospital Carlos Durand, Instituto de Biologia y Medicina Experimental, Buenos Aires, Argentina.

The effect of the antiestrogen Tamoxifen (Tx) on the acute and chronic hcg administration was evaluated in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) and in normal men. An hcg test (5000 IU hcg) was performed before, after two months of hcg administration (2000 IU hcg three times weekly) and after two months of hcg + Tx (2000 IU hcg three times weekly plus 20 mg/day of Tamoxifen). Blood samples were obtained before and following 24 and 72 h of every test to determine T, E, 17OHP and sex hormone binding globulin .

T increased only in HH with both treatments (X +/- SEM: Basal: 97.9 +/- 19.7; hcg: 237.7 +/- 43.2; hcg +/- Tx: 204.7 +/- 10.7 ng/100 ml).

17OHP rose with hcg alone, but not with hcg + Tx in both groups.

E, sex hormone binding globulin and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments.

hcg tests:

E increased 24 h following hcg administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change.

These results support the role of E ]in the acute hcg-induced Leydig cell desensitization. However, the association of Tx does not improve T serum levels, suggesting that E might not be the unique factor involved in the mechanisms for testicular desensitization."

[Baghli]

RonPaul:-

You are going to lose some of your gains as with any end of cycle but if you train and diet and do the PCT right then you shouldnt lose much. HGH and Dbol are commom bridges that you might want to look into as a low dose if you are very concerned about losing your gains but I would suggest to give your body a break and make sure your diet is right as that is going to make the biggest difference now. But yes, nothing for 2 weeks after last pin and you shouldnt have to worry about gyno as long as u dont c symptoms before the end of your cycle. Like I said before, you can start taking HCG before the end of your cycle and a lot of people start it the last few weeks of their cycle. Some stop it before the PCT and some use it as part of the PCT. Everyone reacts different and the PCT I gave you should be pretty safe, you wont know its effectiveness until you try it. So if it was ME then I would just wait for everything (even the HCG) for 2 weeks post last pin. Idk what Naltrexone is, I honestly hadnt even heard of it prior to this.

Fit N Fun :- could you possibly direct us in the direction of the thread about the Naltrexone that you were talking about? Im curious!

[Fit N Fun]

Baghli.

The thread on Naltrexone is here http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?p=5156656

Should have said on my last post that not heard HCG causing problems with de-sensitisation of the Testes when used at moderate levels, so accept the points you make about hi dosage, although 5000 iu per day is the standard dosage for many HCG applications.

Do you have a link to the second document you refer to, since I am about to start Tamoxifen and stop HCG

Thanks

[Baghli]

I think u mean 500 not 5000 lol but ya I get what your saying. I got that document of another forum but i believe that the original document is found here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1952114

[Fit N Fun]

No I mean 5000iu HCG per day is I think standard for women trying to get pregnant.

Will have a look to see if I can get you a link, but for sure the pharma HCG I got last time mentioned 5000iu as the top dose.

[Fit N Fun]

Baghli,

For women trying to get pregnant the dose is 5000iu per day.

The time before last I got pharma HCG and there was someting about 5000iu per day in the instructions and someting about 2000iu, possibly different types of treatment, don't remember if it was for men or women.

Must also emphasise all I need is 400iu every 5 days, so no need to take big doses to keep your testes in good shape.

Theory is that if you keep them in good shape you will shorten your PCT.

[Baghli]

oh lol, well ya. did u get my PM fit n fun? i just had a question for u.

[Fit N Fun]

Baghli,

Got your pm, will respond soon

[RonPaul]

So in your opinion fit, start HCG a few weeks before my last shots, then run it another few weeks into my PCT (after waiting 2 weeks, which means I'll be running HCG alone for 2 weeks prior to the start of my PCT), then taper off as I go through my PCT? so I'd be running it 5/6 weeks?

[Fit N Fun]

Ron,

I start HCG 3 weeks into my cycle and keep it going till I start Tamoxifen which is 3 weeks after my last Test + Deca injection.

HCG is always taken at the same 400iu every 5 days till I stop, no tapering.

Not saying the above is 100% the right way to do it, but I am happy with what I do.

I hated having shrunken nuts and am happy to believe that keeping them inflated will help reduce long term damage and shorten PCT.

Difference for me this time is I have some Naltrexone to try in my PCT which will aparently remove the need for PCT if you run it all the way through.

[RonPaul]

Does Naltrexone limit gains of any type? Why would everyone use it if you dont have to go through a PCT? Maybe I'll do it on my next cycle... Also, you wait 3 weeks after last injection?? thought standard was 2 weeks?

[Fit N Fun]

Naltrexone has yet to be proved whether it works all the way through a cycle and may not work for everyone, so I am experimenting and reporting what happens for the benefit of others.

If Naltrexone keeps the system functioning while on cycle, it will allow you to prouce natural testosterone which will increase gains not reduce them. This also happens with HCG through keeping the testicles functioning.

I use Trentest with Deca. Trentest shuts your system down hard, it has Tren E 100mg and Test C 200mg and is persistent, so for me I leave it 3 weeks to clear the system.Tren is very androgenic.

[RonPaul]

Well, Ive been talking with my Dr, and it seems that the last 5-6 years prior to my cycling, i had been getting "piece meal" treatment for alot of issues I had physically.. She now thinks that I may have had low testosterone the entire time, as I have ZERO of those issues now that I'm on test..... So, if I was to go on a "maintenance" dose of Test every 10 days to 2 weeks, will I still need any type of PCT to deal with coming off of Tren Ace and Winny and just moving into a maintenance mode of Test? Recommendations?

[Fit N Fun]

I have a thread running in the PCT forum on Naltrexone, aparently it may be possible to run Nalrexone all the time and not need PCT.

I did not find out about Naltrexone early enough to run it through my last cycle to find out if that is true, but am using it in my PCT so might be worth investigating

[RonPaul]

i have gotten HCG and have about 2 1/2 weeks left of my cycle.. Im going to continue on maintenance Test (low test naturally) when I finish my cycle. I cant get any naltrexone. How do I use the HCG and what if any PCT do I need to do since I'm going to continue Test at low doses? Do i need to take something for the HCG since it has its own issues?