Winstrol Joint Pain - Fish oil and EFAs

[tembe]

Hey guys

Just wondering,

Have any of you experienced relieving symptoms from using high doses of fish oil and EFAs during a winstrol cycle to relieve the joint pain?

I have heard from multiple people that if you use large doses of fish oil it can aid the joint pain significantly.

I was wondering if anyone had any personal experiences with this and what the results were like?

[tembe]

I am also taking 3grams of Glucosamine to prevent joint pain

[zoltans4]

i use glucosamine, msm and flaxseed oil. im also on milk thistle too, but thats obvi for the liver.

[tembe]

and any joint pain at all?

[zoltans4]

and any joint pain at all?

sorry, ya ive never had the joint issues but there is clearly alot who have, so I run that stuff. I also ran stan like, 7-8 years ago or something and didn't take anything and didn't notice joint pain. I still play sports and always have and use it for sport performance and no issues. To further help tho, I use lower doses than some tho, but I don't train body building style I do like 25-50mg daily so I can't give any experience on sides to larger dosages other run.

[tembe]

fair enough bro

yeh im running 100mg ed atm however only on day 2

so just getting sum knowledge on it in case im faced with painful joints

[tembe]

I was wondering if Winstrol needs to be taken on an empty stomach or after a meal???

Anyone answer that for me please?

[BOBfromfightclub]

I ran into a problem with joints using Epistane. I guess in drys them out. I've tried fish oils, and im now using Animal flex. My joints still seem to be messed up and I am debating using Deca.

[TKO Performance]

Fish oil, glucosamine, ect. will have no effect on the joint pain you can get from using Winstrol. You have to understand the mechanisms from which the pain comes to know why these things will not work. The pain is caused by progesterone antagonism. This blocks progesterone at the receptor, and reduces free estrogen through a progesterone/estrogen mimicing feedback system in the body. The lack of progesterone reduces collagen synthesis, which means your banged up joints heal more slowly. The lack of estrogen curbs the anti-inflammatory reaction, and inflammation goes unchecked, which causes pain. For a long time, and it is still repeated, people claimed it was from reducing water in the joints. This is locker room urban legend and nothing more. Several scientific studies have shown the real reasons as noted above.

BTW, this is also why you can get pain from certain AIs like Epistane.

How do you relieve the pain? Good question. Taking NSAIs like ibuprofen might help, but this is going to be taxing on your liver at the same time your taxing it with Winstrol, which is one of the most liver toxic steroids on a per mg basis.

This is one of the main reasons I would never use Winstrol, especially not solo. If running it with test you may get some relief from some of the test aromatizing to estro, but the doses of test and Winstrol needed to strike the proper balance is anyone's guess. Plus, depending on how much aromatase is being bound you may not be able to get enough estro no matter how much test you take. It would be a complex balancing act that could only be orchestrated with constant blood work to verify hormone levels.

[Swifto]

Fish oil, glucosamine, ect. will have no effect on the joint pain you can get from using Winstrol. You have to understand the mechanisms from which the pain comes to know why these things will not work. The pain is caused by progesterone antagonism. This blocks progesterone at the receptor, and reduces free estrogen through a progesterone/estrogen mimicing feedback system in the body. The lack of progesterone reduces collagen synthesis, which means your banged up joints heal more slowly. The lack of estrogen curbs the anti-inflammatory reaction, and inflammation goes unchecked, which causes pain. For a long time, and it is still repeated, people claimed it was from reducing water in the joints. This is locker room urban legend and nothing more. Several scientific studies have shown the real reasons as noted above.
BTW, this is also why you can get pain from certain AIs like Epistane.

How do you relieve the pain? Good question. Taking NSAIs like ibuprofen might help, but this is going to be taxing on your liver at the same time your taxing it with Winstrol, which is one of the most liver toxic steroids on a per mg basis.

This is one of the main reasons I would never use Winstrol, especially not solo. If running it with test you may get some relief from some of the test aromatizing to estro, but the doses of test and Winstrol needed to strike the proper balance is anyone's guess. Plus, depending on how much aromatase is being bound you may not be able to get enough estro no matter how much test you take. It would be a complex balancing act that could only be orchestrated with constant blood work to verify hormone levels.

I agree.

Although estrogen plays more of a role than progesterone does IMO.


Here's a good study on PgR and ER on collagen synthesis.



Clinical Orthopaedics & Related Research:
February 2001 - Volume 383 - Issue - pp 268-281
SECTION II ORIGINAL ARTICLES: Research


Combined Effects of Estrogen and Progesterone on the Anterior Cruciate Ligament

Yu, Warren D. MD; Panossian, Vahé MD; Hatch, Joshua D. MD; Liu, Stephen H. MD; Finerman, Gerald A. M. MD
AbstractPrevious studies from the authors' laboratory have established the presence of estrogen and progesterone receptors in the human anterior cruciate ligament. The purpose of the current study was to investigate the combined effects of 1˘β-estradiol and progesterone on cell proliferation and procollagen synthesis of the human anterior cruciate ligament fibroblasts. Fibroblast proliferation and procollagen synthesis in response to logarithmic concentrations of 17β-estradiol (0.0025 ng/mL, 0.025 ng/mL, 0.25 ng/mL) and progesterone (1 ng/mL, 10 ng/mL, 100 ng/mL) were assessed with the measurement of 3H-thymidine incorporation and Types I and III procollagen specific equilibrium radioimmunoassays. On Days 1, 3, and 5 there was a dose dependent decrease in the fibroblast proliferation and procollagen Type I synthesis with increasing estradiol concentrations. The effect was attenuated with increasing progesterone concentrations. Controlling for estrogen levels, a dose dependent increase in fibroblast proliferation and procollagen Type I synthesis was observed with increasing progesterone concentrations. The effect was more pronounced at lower concentrations of estrogen, suggesting estrogen levels were the dominant factor. The effects of estrogen and progesterone became less apparent by Day 7. No significant differences in Type III procollagen synthesis were seen with varying estradiol concentrations at any of the designated times. These early physiologic changes in fibroblast proliferation and Type I procollagen synthesis may provide a biologic explanation for the increased anterior cruciate ligament injury rate observed in female athletes, suggesting the acute cyclical hormonal variations in the female athlete during menstruation predispose her to ligamentous injury.


You talk of data, can you post some links?

[TKO Performance]

Certainly. The mother is here:

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/article...our-joints.htm

Ignore the fact that its by Anthony Robert and check the sources. The science is good, even if the author isn't.

Good info here too:

http://jp.physoc.org/content/586/12/3005.full

More research here:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/u4273700m3h3k4u2/

[Swifto]

Thank-you.

I've spoken about the TH1/TH2 immunity response here before in regards to androgens.

But good information.

[ilove7ferrets]

Fish oil, glucosamine, ect. will have no effect on the joint pain you can get from using Winstrol. You have to understand the mechanisms from which the pain comes to know why these things will not work. The pain is caused by progesterone antagonism. This blocks progesterone at the receptor, and reduces free estrogen through a progesterone/estrogen mimicing feedback system in the body. The lack of progesterone reduces collagen synthesis, which means your banged up joints heal more slowly. The lack of estrogen curbs the anti-inflammatory reaction, and inflammation goes unchecked, which causes pain. For a long time, and it is still repeated, people claimed it was from reducing water in the joints. This is locker room urban legend and nothing more. Several scientific studies have shown the real reasons as noted above.

BTW, this is also why you can get pain from certain AIs like Epistane.

How do you relieve the pain? Good question. Taking NSAIs like ibuprofen might help, but this is going to be taxing on your liver at the same time your taxing it with Winstrol, which is one of the most liver toxic steroids on a per mg basis.

This is one of the main reasons I would never use Winstrol, especially not solo. If running it with test you may get some relief from some of the test aromatizing to estro, but the doses of test and Winstrol needed to strike the proper balance is anyone's guess. Plus, depending on how much aromatase is being bound you may not be able to get enough estro no matter how much test you take. It would be a complex balancing act that could only be orchestrated with constant blood work to verify hormone levels.

So, if this causes poor collagen synthesis, would ut not be possibly beneficial to sup with ascorbic acid (vit c)? Since vit C regulates collagen synthesis?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7086193
As well as supping with collagen itself?
Sorry for bumping an old thread but I wanted to ask here since you have so much if the data already presented here rather than start all over with a new thread and getting ill informed answers from people who arent even aware of this info. Thanks

[The God Himself]

I had no joint pain while I’m on winny. But glucosamine combined with chondroitin and msm would be sufficient to prevent any pain, imho.
Don’t be hard on your joints in your workouts also. And drink tons of water