What really makes us fat? Carbs vs. Fat

[gbrice75]

Ok, i'm not looking to start World War III here. I know both camps have people who are adamant about this, and I wanted to start a discussion and get it all in one place. This is probably one of the most debated topics in the sport. The 2 arguments:

Fat makes you fat - the idea is that dietary fat is stored very easily as bodyfat, and carbs are very unlikely to be stored as bodyfat. Carbs are considered protein sparing. Advocates of this idea will typically eat a high protein, moderate-high carbs, and low fat.

Carbs make you fat - blood glucose will be used for any immediate energy requirements, and to replenish glycogen stores. When there is little to no energy requirement, your body will store glucose in fat cells - essentially making them grow, consequently making you fatter. A 'mantra' of this school of thought is - you have to eat fat to burn fat! The idea is that when your body sees it is getting plenty of fat, it doesn't feel the need to hold on to bodyfat stores. This is in direct contrast to the carb lovers who say dietary fat is STORED as bodyfat very easily. These people will typically eat high protein, low-moderate carb, and higher fat diets.

I'd like to hear arguments from both sides, backed up with WHY you believe what you believe. Don't just give your opinion. Let's get it on!!!

[Twist]

Ok, i'm not looking to start World War III here. I know both camps have people who are adamant about this, and I wanted to start a discussion and get it all in one place. This is probably one of the most debated topics in the sport. The 2 arguments:

Fat makes you fat - the idea is that dietary fat is stored very easily as bodyfat, and carbs are very unlikely to be stored as bodyfat. Carbs are considered protein sparing. Advocates of this idea will typically eat a high protein, moderate-high carbs, and low fat.

Carbs make you fat - blood glucose will be used for any immediate energy requirements, and to replenish glycogen stores. When there is little to no energy requirement, your body will store glucose in fat cells - essentially making them grow, consequently making you fatter. A 'mantra' of this school of thought is - you have to eat fat to burn fat! The idea is that when your body sees it is getting plenty of fat, it doesn't feel the need to hold on to bodyfat stores. This is in direct contrast to the carb lovers who say dietary fat is STORED as bodyfat very easily. These people will typically eat high protein, low-moderate carb, and higher fat diets.

I'd like to hear arguments from both sides, backed up with WHY you believe what you believe. Don't just give your opinion. Let's get it on!!!

Bold is the big fault in the "eat fat to burn fat" trend. It should read, "The idea is that when your body sees it is getting plenty of CALORIES, it doesn't feel the need to hold on to bodyfat stores." This changes the argument altogether.

Opponents of carbs will say, "no that's not true! If the body is not getting enough fat, it will view it as a valuable resource and start deaminating protein and storing glucose etc." This is indisputable because it is true. However, this is ONLY true if you are eating LITTLE to NO fat. Advocates of carbs are not saying, "don't eat any fat," we are saying eat little fat. If the fat macronutrients of the diet consist of less than 10% of total caloric intake, then the body will start the needed processes to store protein and carbohydrates as fat. This is why the fat should constitute 15- 20% of the total macro breakdown.

Healthy fat is required by everybody to be healthy. Eat good fats.
Carbohydrates are needed by the body to fuel everything important, the brain uses 20-30% of total calories. Because the brain uses carbohydrates and not so much protein or fat, a great majority of carbohydrates go to fueling the brain. I would then conclude that carbohydrates are not just protein sparing, but they are also knowledge sparing... lol.

I have run a moderate carb diet consisting of only veggies as the carb source. I had great success getting to a really low bf, but then once I stopped I have found it greatly difficult to stay at a low bf%.
Hard facts:
before low carb I was eating 70%carb diet in the form of anything from veggies to candy bars. I was at a bf% of 7% measured on three separate occasions and averaged.

During low carb I got to probably 6%bf (veins all over abs and body) and gained 4 lbs.

After low carb I sit at about 9-10%bf and eat little to no sweets. I have gotten to 13%bf before, something that I was never able to do prior to low carb diet.

So I asked myself, what if I started at 14% bf before low carb? Would that mean that I would sit at 17% when I reintroduce carbs?

[Twist]

Lyle in regard to eating disorders in which people restricted calories for long periods of time, for example binging and purging.
"Even in the seminal Minnesota study, metabolic rate eventually rebounded to normal; of course the subjects had regained all of the fat they had lost as well for that to occur."

Although not entirely the low carb high fat diet, it shows that an absence of healthy calories causes an adverse metabolic effect. More to come...

[Twist]

Although I have not been able to find anything in the last 10 minutes that relates to metabolic damage from no carb dieting, I have found plenty of information related to low calorie metabolic damage. I doubt I will find anything that says low carb or no carb diets will hurt your metabolism, probably because there is no studies done on the matter following these diets. Most information is on the obese or those with eating disorders. However I don't think it is much of a leap to assume that restricting any of the essential nutrients needed to fuel the body to sub-healthy levels will cause some sort of negative impact. from my research of the last 10 minutes I don't think that there will be a permanent and lasting effect, but I do believe that the person will be able to gain fat back to the starting set point, and will easily gain fat past this point if the diet is not kept under control.

[johnfi]

Bold is the big fault in the "eat fat to burn fat" trend. It should read, "The idea is that when your body sees it is getting plenty of CALORIES, it doesn't feel the need to hold on to bodyfat stores." This changes the argument altogether.

Opponents of carbs will say, "no that's not true! If the body is not getting enough fat, it will view it as a valuable resource and start deaminating protein and storing glucose etc." This is indisputable because it is true. However, this is ONLY true if you are eating LITTLE to NO fat. Advocates of carbs are not saying, "don't eat any fat," we are saying eat little fat. If the fat macronutrients of the diet consist of less than 10% of total caloric intake, then the body will start the needed processes to store protein and carbohydrates as fat. This is why the fat should constitute 15- 20% of the total macro breakdown.

Healthy fat is required by everybody to be healthy. Eat good fats.
Carbohydrates are needed by the body to fuel everything important, the brain uses 20-30% of total calories. Because the brain uses carbohydrates and not so much protein or fat, a great majority of carbohydrates go to fueling the brain. I would then conclude that carbohydrates are not just protein sparing, but they are also knowledge sparing... lol.

I have run a moderate carb diet consisting of only veggies as the carb source. I had great success getting to a really low bf, but then once I stopped I have found it greatly difficult to stay at a low bf%.
Hard facts:
before low carb I was eating 70%carb diet in the form of anything from veggies to candy bars. I was at a bf% of 7% measured on three separate occasions and averaged.

During low carb I got to probably 6%bf (veins all over abs and body) and gained 4 lbs.

After low carb I sit at about 9-10%bf and eat little to no sweets. I have gotten to 13%bf before, something that I was never able to do prior to low carb diet.

So I asked myself, what if I started at 14% bf before low carb? Would that mean that I would sit at 17% when I reintroduce carbs?

Bro if you kept your self at 7% bf while eating candy bars it just sound like you have really good genes!

[Twist]

Bro if you kept your self at 7% bf while eating candy bars it just sound like you have really good genes!

good genes for the purpose of being skinny and living longer than most... But certainly not good genes for muscle building. If you can't gain fat, better believe muscle gain is gonna be difficult.


Back to the subject!

I believe that in order to fully understand reasons why folks looking to gain muscle and lose fat should not participate in a low carb, or even worse, a keto diet, we have to talk about AMPK. AMPK is a molecule in the body that is activated when the cellular energy of a cell drops. Anything that causes the breakdown of atp in the cells or the lowering of glycogen levels in muscle will activate AMPK. AMPK activation prevents glycogen storage and improves insulin sensitivity. AMPK also increases fatty acid oxidation - fat burning. Alright so now that you know a little about AMPK, we can talk about its effects.


SO... AMPK increases fat burning and other beneficial mechanisms related to fat loss. That being said it also inhibits MTOR. Because MTOR appears to directly turn on protein synthesis, via activation from leucine and BCAA, we can draw the conclusion that it is BAD to inhibit this marker when muscle growth is the goal.

We see now that draining the cells of glycogen, and using excessive cardio will be beneficial to fat loss, it is counterproductive for muscle gain.


So when applying a calorie deficit and when doing cardio, it is best to supplement with BCAA - specifically leucine - to activate MTOR. I have not been able to find out whether BCAA supplementation can reverse the MTOR inhibition from AMPK, but I will try to find out. So my recommendation is to take BCAA after a workout, then 20 minutes later drink a protein shake.


GB: this is one of the reasons that I told you in your exercise program to not destroy your muscles when training, instead stimulate slightly, while letting the cardio and the deficit do the work. Further GB after you workout with weights I want you to take high doses of BCAA.

[gbrice75]

Thank you for all the info and knowledge bro. I picked up the BCAA's yesterday and started incorporating today! Also feeling good eating carbs regularly again - it just feels 'right' to me.

[yannick35]

Eating to many calories is what makes us fat.

I used to do all theses low carb diets all the time, i felt like crap, as soon as i started eating normal again i gained the weight back.

Your body needs carbs, it need protein and fats, how else can you get all the nutrients that you need.

[Ishallnocheatmyself]

twist i got a question, im at about 22% bf and am currently trying to ahcieve ketosis(2nd day in and the stick says im 3 above negative) so im either in it or close to i only decided to do this because i wanted fast fat loss and leaner body before i try to get big(low fat big not a fatty mcbuttepants) i did research on it and it sounded like the best course of action for me because im just getting back into weight lifting and even re building stabilizer muscles, so i thought the lower weight but work out till burn and lots of cardio would be a good base.


can you tell me what your opinion is, i really dont wanna mess up and end up fatter than before...

*note* currently doing 45 mins ofr around 135-150 bpm on an elliptical once a day and every 2nd day i do the stationary bicycles or tread mill for 45 mins still light intensity for long duration and I WILL I CONTINUE THIS AFTER I REINTRODUCE carbs . When i do reintroduce carbs im gonna keep them fairly low still only oats in breaky before and maybe after work outs.

whats your thoughts, anyone else with knowledge on this please feel free to critisize me or send tips/thoughts this way. Thanks in advance <3

[amostofi1999]

im no researcher or anything but
for me keto is the way to go for cutting. i lose much easier and i dont feel hungry. however i cant eat carbs and be on a calorie deficit. i get hungry and end up eating above maintenance.

[Twist]

twist i got a question, im at about 22% bf and am currently trying to ahcieve ketosis(2nd day in and the stick says im 3 above negative) so im either in it or close to i only decided to do this because i wanted fast fat loss and leaner body before i try to get big(low fat big not a fatty mcbuttepants) i did research on it and it sounded like the best course of action for me because im just getting back into weight lifting and even re building stabilizer muscles, so i thought the lower weight but work out till burn and lots of cardio would be a good base.


can you tell me what your opinion is, i really dont wanna mess up and end up fatter than before...

*note* currently doing 45 mins ofr around 135-150 bpm on an elliptical once a day and every 2nd day i do the stationary bicycles or tread mill for 45 mins still light intensity for long duration and I WILL I CONTINUE THIS AFTER I REINTRODUCE carbs . When i do reintroduce carbs im gonna keep them fairly low still only oats in breaky before and maybe after work outs.

whats your thoughts, anyone else with knowledge on this please feel free to critisize me or send tips/thoughts this way. Thanks in advance <3

start a thread and pm me the link and I will look at it.

im no researcher or anything but
for me keto is the way to go for cutting. i lose much easier and i dont feel hungry. however i cant eat carbs and be on a calorie deficit. i get hungry and end up eating above maintenance.

Keto works for losing fat, however if you read my above post, I said how many things are wrong with it; and forget building muscle. But when on a keto diet, you must refeed or else you risk a whole host of problems that I don't want to get into.

[tembe]

start a thread and pm me the link and I will look at it.

Keto works for losing fat, however if you read my above post, I said how many things are wrong with it; and forget building muscle. But when on a keto diet, you must refeed or else you risk a whole host of problems that I don't want to get into.

i dont believe this

i ran ketogenic diet for 15 weeks including using high dnp dosages

i dropped around 25kg and only lost 2kg of muscle (DEXA SCAN RESULTS)

also got a blood test and everything was fine cept slightly slow thyroid

[amostofi1999]

ya brain sure does slow down a bit. my skin also suffers because i dont eat all nutrients in keto. it seems that multivitamins are quite useless.

[Failure]

it seems that multivitamins are quite useless.

I tend to disagree on Keto where you aren't taking in the nutrients found in rounded meals. Keto diets are lower in Vitamin D and C among other nutrients that I am not aware of. Taking a mutli seems to be more essential on a restricted diet.

[Twist]

i dont believe this

i ran ketogenic diet for 15 weeks including using high dnp dosages

i dropped around 25kg and only lost 2kg of muscle (DEXA SCAN RESULTS)

also got a blood test and everything was fine cept slightly slow thyroid

You disagree... but you lost 2kg of muscle and have a slow thyroid?

I tend to disagree on Keto where you aren't taking in the nutrients found in rounded meals. Keto diets are lower in Vitamin D and C among other nutrients that I am not aware of. Taking a mutli seems to be more essential on a restricted diet.

How about carbs? those are nutrients found in rounded meals.


Look I am not trying to bash keto, although I want to. I know very little about it. I do however provide the reasons for why Carbs vs fat, I choose carbs. If anyone has anything that sways the other direction, lets hear it. I love to learn and am tempted to learn about keto, but not enough. If someone presents info I will definitely be persuaded. I strongly believe that if you do a keto diet and don't have a refeed often, there will be lasting consequences.

[hank1234]

I would venture to say that every person is different, different size, shape, culture, genes. my best friend can eat like shit and still look good where if i sneak a snickers in I flatten out in a matter of hours.

when it comes to losing fat its a matter of what your body does best with and maintaining a calorie deficit. but remember that the human body is a remarkable machine that is constantly trying to maintain homeostasis. If you starve your self to long or to much it will begin breaking down your higher metabolic tissues(muscle) to prevent it from dieing. and you really can't gain muscle on a deficit, you need to be on a surplus higher than maintanance calories.

I use a keto diet every 6 months or so but i dont do it for to long roughly 6-8 wks as to prevent metabolic breakdown.

carbs are protein sparing because your body will use them a energy first, and remember the simple/complex carbs because simple carbs are almost instanly into your blood steam this will cause a blood level spike and if your not paying attention you will be storing surplus calories.

and from what i've discovered is that its better to be more active to create a calorie deficit rather than restrict food because most people will go back to eating as much as before and by nature will go back to the same weight and usually fatter because of decreased metabolism. eating proteins, complex carbs and timing simple carbs along with good lifting routine and cardio will jack you metabolism way up!

[tembe]

You disagree... but you lost 2kg of muscle and have a slow thyroid?

my thyroid has already regulated itself naturally and i lost 2kg in 15 weeks of ketosis yet lost 14% body fat....

i think any1 can say that that is pretty awesome...that muscle loss is also exaggerated due to the dexa scan being taken whilst in ketosis therefore no glycogen in the muscles....im not saying do a ketogenic diet...im saying that they in fact do work...as does any diet if you do it properly....and the negative effects with ketogenic diets you state are long term...you arnt going to suffer much off a few weeks of ketogenic dieting.....

How about carbs? those are nutrients found in rounded meals.


Look I am not trying to bash keto, although I want to. I know very little about it. I do however provide the reasons for why Carbs vs fat, I choose carbs. If anyone has anything that sways the other direction, lets hear it. I love to learn and am tempted to learn about keto, but not enough. If someone presents info I will definitely be persuaded. I strongly believe that if you do a keto diet and don't have a refeed often, there will be lasting consequences.

reply in bold

[Twist]

You are correct in many aspects of this:
What you accomplished is really awesome! great job.
Yes I am talking about the long term effects of using keto diets for long periods of time, frequent refeeds can probably offset this, but I am not sure.
You won't suffer much from a few weeks of keto dieting.

I am not trying to dispute any of the above.