STEROID? Ar Up-regulation? Down-regulation a myth? VETS?

[AnimalJ]

Evening Gentleman. I would like to discuss AR receptor up regulation and down regulation. ever since iv delved heavily into the world of anabolciw iv done nothing but try to educate myself more more and more. Reading articles, books, medical journals amongst other things.
If you will please give your opinion on each numbered statement should you have information on it. it would be greatly appreciated.

1. Everything iv read seems to point to up regulation being the case. meaning that the more you take the more you grow and the body will create receptors in the cells as needed?


2.There is no such thing as flooding or burning out your AR receptors. a certian amount of juice + Diet+ resistance training can only take you to a certain weight. eventually doses will have to be increased regardless of time off?

3. The slingshot method. . . .most things i read point to it as being nonsense? meaning ar flooding and down-regulation is just myth and or opinion and there is no scientific evidence to back up this meat head conjecture?


4 . the reason a ccyle works so well after taking a break is the body loses weight after being catacolic without the high amounts of AAS thus you rebound hard and strong. hence why bodybuildrs break platues after dieting for a competetion and tsart there bulk?

Again gentlemen these are questions. I make these statements solely in the purpose of being corrected or told they are accurate. Any opinions on this articles?
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/article...regulation.htm

[Userat204]

Bump
But I'm sure this has been discussed here many times. I just don't have the answers.

[Kdub]

1 & 2: I think one must address myostatin.
3: Can't comment. Haven't tried it.
4: Can't comment. Haven't competed but have been interesting in a prime and burst.

So much here to discuss. The variables are many. There is a limit to everything. Man can only sprint for a limited distance and lactic acid build up is a limiting factor. I recall reading an article regarding sprinting (I was training elite track athletes at one point) and recall it saying it (lactic acid) is a safety mechanism to prevent injury. It strongly appears we exist in a reality of constant limitations and managing these limitations and the true potential that lies on the other side (tapping into it and by-passing the restrictions) is a factor in successful anything.

So how does one get in behind the limitations and massage more performance out of "you"? From experience, it becomes a matter of trial and error.

Going back to #1: Many report usage above 1,000 mg a week is detrimental and settle in nicely at 750 mg/wk of Test. Perhaps this is their sweet spot. Others report great gains on 250 mg/wk of Test but with higher Nor-19 and DHT compounds. From what I have learned, pro's typically use 2,000 mgs per day but now we are talking a whole 'nother game here because of HGH twice a day, insulin many times daily and god knows what else.

I am sure the constipated bb'er who takes 2,000 mgs a week who does a poor job digesting, absorbing and eliminating their nutrients will inefficiently make use of their "cycle" versus the bb'er who is 3 x a day regular and uses half the dose. Being full of $hit is never a good thing.

So many factors. The gospel here on the forum is to start with a single Test compound and go up slowly from there adding a compound here and there for the following cycles. Why? To see what works for you. Ditto for cycling carbs and other diet tweaks... see what works for you. Ditto for Yates/Mentzer HIT or volume training styles. The whole damn thing is endless.

I certainly couldn't take any protocol at face value because I am me. You don't know unless you try. And so the journey begins and never ends.

Not sure if any of that helps.

[Bonaparte]

Like Kdub pointed out, you're overlooking myostatin. AR sensitivity has nothing to do with homeostasis.

[AnimalJ]

Excelling post Kdub, i do appreciate your views on these subjects and they do make much sense to me.

[delta1111]

Like Kdub pointed out, you're overlooking myostatin. AR sensitivity has nothing to do with homeostasis.

What does this mean?

[dec11]

having been on trt for over a year, i reckon down regulation is a myth, i can kp gaining by tweaking diet. there also was a study posted here somewhere on creatine stopping myostatin interference

[dec11]

1 & 2: I think one must address myostatin.
3: Can't comment. Haven't tried it.
4: Can't comment. Haven't competed but have been interesting in a prime and burst.

So much here to discuss. The variables are many. There is a limit to everything. Man can only sprint for a limited distance and lactic acid build up is a limiting factor. I recall reading an article regarding sprinting (I was training elite track athletes at one point) and recall it saying it (lactic acid) is a safety mechanism to prevent injury. It strongly appears we exist in a reality of constant limitations and managing these limitations and the true potential that lies on the other side (tapping into it and by-passing the restrictions) is a factor in successful anything.

So how does one get in behind the limitations and massage more performance out of "you"? From experience, it becomes a matter of trial and error.

Going back to #1: Many report usage above 1,000 mg a week is detrimental and settle in nicely at 750 mg/wk of Test. Perhaps this is their sweet spot. Others report great gains on 250 mg/wk of Test but with higher Nor-19 and DHT compounds. From what I have learned, pro's typically use 2,000 mgs per day but now we are talking a whole 'nother game here because of HGH twice a day, insulin many times daily and god knows what else.

I am sure the constipated bb'er who takes 2,000 mgs a week who does a poor job digesting, absorbing and eliminating their nutrients will inefficiently make use of their "cycle" versus the bb'er who is 3 x a day regular and uses half the dose. Being full of $hit is never a good thing.

So many factors. The gospel here on the forum is to start with a single Test compound and go up slowly from there adding a compound here and there for the following cycles. Why? To see what works for you. Ditto for cycling carbs and other diet tweaks... see what works for you. Ditto for Yates/Mentzer HIT or volume training styles. The whole damn thing is endless.

I certainly couldn't take any protocol at face value because I am me. You don't know unless you try. And so the journey begins and never ends.

Not sure if any of that helps.

this parrot has one cycle under his belt btw, how the hell can he poss advise???

[AnimalJ]

having been on trt for over a year, i reckon down regulation is a myth, i can kp gaining by tweaking diet. there also was a study posted here somewhere on creatine stopping myostatin interference

Good to know dec, input is much appreciated.

[dec11]

Good to know dec, input is much appreciated.

the most important thing in all this is diet, the rest are tools and aids

[Kdub]

this parrot has one cycle under his belt btw, how the hell can he poss advise???

You know that's not true. I ruffled your feathers last year and you are still hanging on to it. Get over it and move on.

[dec11]

You know that's not true. I ruffled your feathers last year and you are still hanging on to it. Get over it and move on.

oh its true alright, its all in your posts to be seen. you post a load of waffle for your own self satisfaction and glory, stop handing out 'advice' when you've no clue what your on about. you didnt ruffle me, i just pointed out your bs ramblings and you didnt like it.

why the hell do ppl like you do this?!

[dec11]

1 & 2: I think one must address myostatin.
3: Can't comment. Haven't tried it.
4: Can't comment. Haven't competed but have been interesting in a prime and burst.

So much here to discuss. The variables are many. There is a limit to everything. Man can only sprint for a limited distance and lactic acid build up is a limiting factor. I recall reading an article regarding sprinting (I was training elite track athletes at one point) and recall it saying it (lactic acid) is a safety mechanism to prevent injury. It strongly appears we exist in a reality of constant limitations and managing these limitations and the true potential that lies on the other side (tapping into it and by-passing the restrictions) is a factor in successful anything.

So how does one get in behind the limitations and massage more performance out of "you"? From experience, it becomes a matter of trial and error.

Going back to #1: Many report usage above 1,000 mg a week is detrimental and settle in nicely at 750 mg/wk of Test. Perhaps this is their sweet spot. Others report great gains on 250 mg/wk of Test but with higher Nor-19 and DHT compounds. From what I have learned, pro's typically use 2,000 mgs per day but now we are talking a whole 'nother game here because of HGH twice a day, insulin many times daily and god knows what else.

I am sure the constipated bb'er who takes 2,000 mgs a week who does a poor job digesting, absorbing and eliminating their nutrients will inefficiently make use of their "cycle" versus the bb'er who is 3 x a day regular and uses half the dose. Being full of $hit is never a good thing.
So many factors. The gospel here on the forum is to start with a single Test compound and go up slowly from there adding a compound here and there for the following cycles. Why? To see what works for you. Ditto for cycling carbs and other diet tweaks... see what works for you. Ditto for Yates/Mentzer HIT or volume training styles. The whole damn thing is endless.

I certainly couldn't take any protocol at face value because I am me. You don't know unless you try. And so the journey begins and never ends.

Not sure if any of that helps.

wtf??? complete and utter bullshit, its just unbelievable! you should take on board the 'being full of $hit is never a good thing'. its very apt for you

[Swifto]

wtf??? complete and utter bullshit, its just unbelievable! you should take on board the 'being full of $hit is never a good thing'. its very apt for you

I also read that and thought WTF.

This is such a tricky subject... Mostly because we're still learning about the AR's mechanism's and functions.

The majority of the time this subject is raised its a question on "Why gains slow?" or hault altogether over a peroid of time.

IMHO, that because of AR regulators and co-suppressors, myostatin, perhpas SHBG if the user never comes off (HRT), estrogen - therefore GH and IGF synthesis, NOT increasing cal's when LBM increases, not increasing doses when LBM and a tolerances increases.

You can overcome this by doing the obvious things I just pointed out in the paragraph above, switching compounds, using more anabolic/androgenic compounds and simply coming off for a peroid of time.

AR's seem to increase, not "down-regulate" or decrease in number. The ER will actually down-regulate the AR though.

[Kdub]

Excelling post Kdub, i do appreciate your views on these subjects and they do make much sense to me.

Cheers AnimalJ.

I am pretty certain gains cease after an 8 week cycle due to myostatin.

I have not tried Ronnie's slingshot method. Maybe he has discovered a way around it with the 2 week deload followed by an increased dose. Not sure what the results are after the second 8 weeks. Another 3-5 lbs?

[dec11]

I also read that and thought WTF.

This is such a tricky subject... Mostly because we're still learning about the AR's mechanism's and functions.

The majority of the time this subject is raised its a question on "Why gains slow?" or hault altogether over a peroid of time.

IMHO, that because of AR regulators and co-suppressors, myostatin, perhpas SHBG if the user never comes off (HRT), estrogen - therefore GH and IGF synthesis, NOT increasing cal's when LBM increases, not increasing doses when LBM and a tolerances increases.

You can overcome this by doing the obvious things I just pointed out in the paragraph above, switching compounds, using more anabolic/androgenic compounds and simply coming off for a peroid of time.

AR's seem to increase, not "down-regulate" or decrease in number. The ER will actually down-regulate the AR though.

was you who posted the creatine/myostatin thing mate? it was a good while ago

[Swifto]

was you who posted the creatine/myostatin thing mate? it was a good while ago

Yeah, but I'm not sure how applicable it is here.

[Swifto]

Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2010 Apr 12;317(1-2):25-30. Epub 2009 Dec 22.

Effects of oral creatine and resistance training on serum myostatin and GASP-1.

Saremi A, Gharakhanloo R, Sharghi S, Gharaati MR, Larijani B, Omidfar K.

Department of Sport Science, Arak University, Arak, Iran.
Abstract
Myostatin is a catabolic regulator of skeletal muscle mass. The purpose of this study was to determine the effect of resistance training for 8 weeks in conjunction with creatine supplementation on muscle strength, lean body mass, and serum levels of myostatin and growth and differentiation factor-associated serum protein-1 (GASP-1). In a double-blinded design 27 healthy male subjects (23.42+/-2.2 years) were assigned to control (CON), resistance training+placebo (RT+PL) and resistance training+creatine supplementation (RT+CR) groups. The protocol consisted of 3 days per week of training for 8 weeks, each session including three sets of 8-10 repetitions at 60-70% of 1 RM for whole-body exercise. Blood sampling, muscular strength testing and body composition analysis (full body DEXA) were performed at 0, 4th and 8th weeks. Myostatin and GASP-1 was measured. Resistance training caused significant decrease in serum levels of myostatin and increase in that of GASP-1. Creatine supplementation in conjunction with resistance training lead to greater decreases in serum myostatin (p<0.05), but had not additional effect on GASP-1 (p>0.05). The effects of resistance training on serum levels of myostatin and GASP-1, may explain the increased muscle mass that is amplified by creatine supplementation.

PMID: 20026378 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[dec11]

Yeah, but I'm not sure how applicable it is here.

im starting a run on insulin tomorrow, it will be interesting to know if my trt dose will support the gains afew weeks after i discontinue the slin.

[AnimalJ]

Excellent everyone. Swifto thank you. its nice to see the info posted in theis thread. very insightful.

[Duckhombre]

I don't see the link between prolong AAS use and increasing mystatin? If someone is aware of such a connection, I would be enthralled. I agree with number 1%2 in original post. I think it will take a very long time reach your true maximum at a given dose.

I think the slingshot method needs to be more clearly defined, so we can discuss it further.

[Swifto]

An extensive full paper on the AR and its effects on growth of skeletal muscle.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ull/89/10/5245

Supraphysiological doses of androgens UP-REGULATE the AR, not the opposite.

[rombus]

An extensive full paper on the AR and its effects on growth of skeletal muscle.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ull/89/10/5245

Supraphysiological doses of androgens UP-REGULATE the AR, not the opposite.

Hmmmmmm great article.

", incubation with androgens increased the expression of AR protein, measured by Western blot analysis. The changes in AR mRNA levels, measured by real-time PCR, were very modest."

So the AR protein was being made, according to mRNA levels...so that is afairly safe assumption that it will funciton properly as the AR is strictly intracellular and does not travel elsewhere..unless there is some mechanism after the transcription that hinders the protein's effectiveness following chronic androgen usage.

However, perhaps the upregulation of AR is temporary, and that with longer usage, the AR will downregulate?

Moreover, if incr doses of androgens up regulate the AR, then theorretcially woudlnt we be able to see continual gains?

[AnimalJ]

Awesome find swifto, thanks man.